AHH yes, forget about democracy, forget about human rights, forget about workers rights, pay, working conditions, health and safety, living conditions, free speech, political freedom, religious freedom, Tibet, forget about most of the things that the Tories see as a nuisance in this country, there's a quid or two to be made,
But MOST of all, stuff British values when it comes to making a few quid,
only what we would expect, after all, they know the price of everything and the value of nothing,
AHH yes, forget about democracy, forget about human rights, forget about workers rights, pay, working conditions, health and safety, living conditions, free speech, political freedom, religious freedom, Tibet, forget about most of the things that the Tories see as a nuisance in this country, there's a quid or two to be made,
But MOST of all, stuff British values when it comes to making a few quid,
only what we would expect, after all, they know the price of everything and the value of nothing,
Does everything need to be about party politics? For the love of god, Blair got into bed with Bush! Much worse IMO, at least the chinese are upfront about some of their more questionable (by our western standards) habits. It's no different, we're simply playing footsie with the no1 world power - we've been doing that for a very, very long time.
I'm adoring the irony of all the talk of "but china are nasty!" from social media and various anti-tory outlets at the moment. The stupidity, hypocrisy and ignorance of the sentiment is priceless.
AHH yes, forget about democracy, forget about human rights, forget about workers rights, pay, working conditions, health and safety, living conditions, free speech, political freedom, religious freedom, Tibet, forget about most of the things that the Tories see as a nuisance in this country, there's a quid or two to be made,
But MOST of all, stuff British values when it comes to making a few quid,
only what we would expect, after all, they know the price of everything and the value of nothing,
and i take it you know nothing about the value of hypocrisy.
do you know where your fuel (petrol, oil) comes from? chances are its Saudi Arabia - that bastion of democracy and champion of religous freedoms and human rights. (insert huge sarcasm smilie here).
I was expecting this response,
Am I the one doing a multi billion pound trade deal with China?
Am I the one banging on about teaching our kids "British values"? I wouldn't say I go out of my way to avoid things made in China,
like most people I suppose the country of origin of something I buy is quite low down on my list of priorities,
and I speak as someone who was made redundant several times during the 80s as greedy factory bosses laid off their workers in order to exploit the appalling working conditions in China in order to satisfy their own greed,
But if the government/s decided not to trade with countries like China, countries whose growth and increasing wealth and power is directly due to their lack of human rights and protection for their workers, then I wouldn't even have the option would I?
I find it especially galling when the very same PM boasting about the wonderful deal he has just done with these human rights violators and torturers, was only a couple of days ago going on about the importance of teaching our kids "British values"
As I say, these "values" obviously go right out of the window as soon as there is a few quid to be made,
and who will gain the most from these deals? the people who might find jobs due to them, or the rich (mainly Tory voting/funding) investors? I doubt the Chinese workers will see much benefit from them though,
and I was equally as opposed to the deals Labour did with China, just heading off the inevitable "what about Labour then? ner ner ner" response,
I was expecting this response,
Am I the one doing a multi billion pound trade deal with China?
Am I the one banging on about teaching our kids "British values"? I wouldn't say I go out of my way to avoid things made in China,
like most people I suppose the country of origin of something I buy is quite low down on my list of priorities,
and I speak as someone who was made redundant several times during the 80s as greedy factory bosses laid off their workers in order to exploit the appalling working conditions in China in order to satisfy their own greed,
But if the government/s decided not to trade with countries like China, countries whose growth and increasing wealth and power is directly due to their lack of human rights and protection for their workers, then I wouldn't even have the option would I?
I find it especially galling when the very same PM boasting about the wonderful deal he has just done with these human rights violators and torturers, was only a couple of days ago going on about the importance of teaching our kids "British values"
As I say, these "values" obviously go right out of the window as soon as there is a few quid to be made,
and who will gain the most from these deals? the people who might find jobs due to them, or the rich (mainly Tory voting/funding) investors? I doubt the Chinese workers will see much benefit from them though,
and I was equally as opposed to the deals Labour did with China, just heading off the inevitable "what about Labour then? ner ner ner" response,
Whatever Cam and Os do would be wrong in your eyes because the are Tories. All your posts need to be digested with this in mind. The amount of jobs created with these boys at the helm, are helping hundreds of thousands.
You can achieve a lot by being a partner rather than just opposing. Once you have them tied to these deals to leverage improvements in such areas as Human Rights.
Further what about the jobs that these deals bring here (rather than New Labours come to Britain plenty of jobs for all that New Labour was pushing) Do you think the person struggling to pay for food and a home is going to worry that the money to give him a job comes from China. Do we tell him he must go without to salvage our conscience?
China is in line to become the world's largest economy - do you really think we can ignore that and get up on our high horse - it is going to be very lonely while the rest of the world takes advantage.
and i take it you know nothing about the value of hypocrisy.
do you know where your fuel (petrol, oil) comes from? chances are its Saudi Arabia - that bastion of democracy and champion of religous freedoms and human rights. (insert huge sarcasm smilie here).
British values are "as British as the Union Flag, as fish and chips" and not living by them is "not an option", insists the PM.
David Cameron has said a "worrying" failure to support British values has led to increasing division and extremism in the UK.
He said Britain should become "more muscular" in promoting national values and urged people to stop being "squeamish" about doing so.
He also suggested that any move away from the "Western model" of democracy and free enterprise would threaten Britain's economic success.
China's new human rights plan emphasizes economic rights at expense of civil liberties
The Chinese authorities have released a National Human Rights Action Plan that, in some areas, includes concrete targets for 2010.
Amnesty International has welcomed the plan, saying that it signals the growing importance the Chinese authorities place on the protection of human rights and adherence to international human rights standards.
The organization said that the targets, if achieved, would be important steps forward for human rights, but pointed to major gaps in the plan.
The action plan fails to address many serious and on-going human rights violations in China.
These violations include the harassment, detention and imprisonment of human rights defenders and prisoners of conscience who have been targeted solely for exercising their rights to freedom of expression; censorship of the Internet and other media; and the continued use of forms of administrative detention, including Re-education Through Labour, which deprives individuals of their liberty for up to four years without the opportunity for a fair trial
In several areas of civil and political rights, for example on death penalty, eradication of torture and freedom of religion, the new proposals simply repeat existing laws and policies that have failed to adequately protect human rights.
Free Tibet protests greet China's Premier as David Cameron announces billions of pounds' worth of deals between the two countries.
is that enough "hypocrisy" for you or would you like some more?
Of course this total abandonment of "British values" when making a few quid is on the table will now be justified by the usual "it will create British jobs" or "It's better to work WITH China to encourage change" (especially when there are billions to be made) and "British values" can DO ONE, and the Chinese can continue to torture and imprison without trial, and crush all dissent etc etc, cause the luverly moolah is rolling in,
Whatever Cam and Os do would be wrong in your eyes because the are Tories. All your posts need to be digested with this in mind. The amount of jobs created with these boys at the helm, are helping hundreds of thousands.
See that's where you are wrong, because I was opposed to the deals Labour did with China,
and hey, forget about people being tortured and imprisoned without trail, workers here will get jobs and millionaires will get more millions, so STUFF "British values" eh?
You can achieve a lot by being a partner rather than just opposing. Once you have them tied to these deals to leverage improvements in such areas as Human Rights.
Further what about the jobs that these deals bring here (rather than New Labours come to Britain plenty of jobs for all that New Labour was pushing) Do you think the person struggling to pay for food and a home is going to worry that the money to give him a job comes from China. Do we tell him he must go without to salvage our conscience?
China is in line to become the world's largest economy - do you really think we can ignore that and get up on our high horse - it is going to be very lonely while the rest of the world takes advantage.
I know I know, principles and morality, freedom democracy human rights, I mean we know that these are "British values" right? but so is making a few quid,
So I'm sorry if I am "on my high horse" but remind me, who was it just a couple of days ago stressing that we shouldn't be afraid to stand up for "British values"?
I am only doing what Dave the leader of the Tory party said we should do, so now I am wrong for agreeing with Dave and the Tories? who'da thunk it?
I know I know, principles and morality, freedom democracy human rights, I mean we know that these are "British values" right? but so is making a few quid,
So I'm sorry if I am "on my high horse" but remind me, who was it just a couple of days ago stressing that we shouldn't be afraid to stand up for "British values"?
I am only doing what Dave the leader of the Tory party said we should do, so now I am wrong for agreeing with Dave and the Tories? who'da thunk it?
Your missing the point - We can of course go on about Human rights violations and China will keep on ignoring the point as there is no reason for them to change if we have nothing to offer them.
On the other hand London is the only place in the world outside China where you can exchange their currency, The UK is also getting considerable money from these deals. - but this is not just one way - China will make considerable foreign currency from these deals and that is your leverage to get Human Rights change.
Without them you go to China and you will be lucky to get a shrug and so what?
I was expecting this response,
Am I the one doing a multi billion pound trade deal with China?
Am I the one banging on about teaching our kids "British values"? I wouldn't say I go out of my way to avoid things made in China,
like most people I suppose the country of origin of something I buy is quite low down on my list of priorities,
So your outrage is simply based on the size of the deal, there is no principle involved?
But if the government/s decided not to trade with countries like China, countries whose growth and increasing wealth and power is directly due to their lack of human rights and protection for their workers, then I wouldn't even have the option would I?
Do you need the Government to decide whether it is principled for you to trade with countries that " forget about democracy, forget about human rights, forget about workers rights, pay, working conditions, health and safety, living conditions, free speech, political freedom, religious freedom, Tibet"?
I find it especially galling when the very same PM boasting about the wonderful deal he has just done with these human rights violators and torturers, was only a couple of days ago going on about the importance of teaching our kids "British values"
As I say, these "values" obviously go right out of the window as soon as there is a few quid to be made,
So as you have already said that you have no problem trading with them unless the Government decides otherwise whats the issue?
You seem to be more interested as usual in having a pop at Cameron and the eeeevil Tories rather than any great matter of principle over trading with countries with poor human rights records.
I know I know, principles and morality, freedom democracy human rights, I mean we know that these are "British values" right? but so is making a few quid,
So I'm sorry if I am "on my high horse" but remind me, who was it just a couple of days ago stressing that we shouldn't be afraid to stand up for "British values"?
I am only doing what Dave the leader of the Tory party said we should do, so now I am wrong for agreeing with Dave and the Tories? who'da thunk it?
But it's not just making a few quid is it, it's our entire way of life. We didn't end slavery, we exported it! The economic situation that allows even those in our lowest wealth brackets to enjoy comparatively luxurious and comfortable lifestyles exists ONLY because we have a billion or two humans to exploit that nobody gives much of a shit about.
You said yourself that you own stuff made there, because I'm assuming you (like most sensible people, not having a bash) prioritise getting good value for money when making purchases over the moral implications of supporting the chinese economy. How is this any different? Do you think we as a country can turn away investment at the moment? The government is doing what all of us do, whistling quietly at the ceiling because it cares more about our economic well being than some nameless, faceless people who get treated badly by other countries.
To get on our moral high horse about this whilst enjoying a cheap consumerist lifestyle that continues to exist purely because others in the world are exploited and kept poor is absolutely laughable.
we certainly do address issues such as human rights. but we've learned that the culture doesn't respond well to the sort of public humiliation we tried for years.
the only way we can influence human rights in china is by engaging. lecturing them achieved nothing. we want their money, but they want to invest it.
But it's not just making a few quid is it, it's our entire way of life. We didn't end slavery, we exported it! The economic situation that allows even those in our lowest wealth brackets to enjoy comparatively luxurious and comfortable lifestyles exists ONLY because we have a billion or two humans to exploit that nobody gives much of a shit about.
You said yourself that you own stuff made there, because I'm assuming you (like most sensible people, not having a bash) prioritise getting good value for money when making purchases over the moral implications of supporting the chinese economy. How is this any different? Do you think we as a country can turn away investment at the moment? The government is doing what all of us do, whistling quietly at the ceiling because it cares more about our economic well being than some nameless, faceless people who get treated badly by other countries.
To get on our moral high horse about this whilst enjoying a cheap consumerist lifestyle that continues to exist purely because others in the world are exploited and kept poor is absolutely laughable.
To be honest, I have no idea how many, if any, items that I own are/were made in China, my whole point in this "debate" has been the hypocrisy of Cameron, who, not 3 days ago was spouting on about "British values"... not me, I wasn't the one getting all "we are British therefore we have a greater sense of morality and justice, and fair play, than any of those 'foreign types'
I once visited a factory in the far east, not China I admit, it was actually Thailand, but the pay and working conditions/workers rights etc were a shock to me,
My 'then' boss was about to outsource some of his production out there and took me with him because he wanted me to teach the workers some of my techniques, (not before assuring me that my job and the job of the people in the department I ran were safe of course)
what I saw there shocked me, it looked and felt more like a prison than a place of work, the workers all sat at benches in rows they reminded me of battery hens, it was very much a production line environment no skill at all required,
where over here the job required a large amount of skill and yes, pride, a worker would start and finish an entire item themselves,
over there each worker bee would do just one part of the process before passing the product to the next 'bee'
the place had no windows and was just a huge warehouse like building and 'overlookers' patrolled up and down the rows of worker bees, and you could have heard a pin drop, in a building with I would think, about 600 people in it,
I overheard my boss turn to his number 2, who had also come with us, and say "it's a pity we couldn't do this with our lot"
the workers worked a 12 hour day 6 days a week, they got one weeks unpaid holiday a year and most of them lived in dormitories above the factory, they had to have permission to leave the factory after work, and earned the equivalent of around £6 a day, which was thought of as a very good wage indeed,
I was in on the boardroom meeting between my boss and the factory owner, the factory could manufacture package and ship the product to my bosses factory at less than half his current production costs, my boss was almost drooling at the prospect,
Three weeks later I and almost all of the other workers got our redundancy notices, all but a handful of workers were kept on to receive, re package and re stamp the products as made locally, and then dispatch them,
he didn't even lower his prices, the guy was already a multi millionaire who lived in a huge house outside of town, but now he was an even richer multi millionaire and 150 people were now "scroungers" on the dole,
I believe that expecting to "change" a system by actively supporting it is just plain bollox, and an excuse that the exploiters use to justify their greed, because it might very well mean that some people get jobs out of it, but who will be the ones making the vast fortunes from the poor treatment of others?
If the so called "free western economies" decided that getting countries like China to change their ways was really a priority and more important than turning a blind eye to what goes on just so long as a vast profit can be made, then China would have no choice but to change,
we certainly do address issues such as human rights. but we've learned that the culture doesn't respond well to the sort of public humiliation we tried for years.
the only way we can influence human rights in china is by engaging. lecturing them achieved nothing. we want their money, but they want to invest it.
Well, isn't this a turnaround? we have me, a proud 'leftie' attacking the people's republic of China,
while we have those who are usually the first to attack socialism and communism defending them and our 'dealings' with them,
just goes to show the power of cash and greed eh?
Well, isn't this a turnaround? we have me, a proud 'leftie' attacking the people's republic of China,
while we have those who are usually the first to attack socialism and communism defending them and our 'dealings' with them,
just goes to show the power of cash and greed eh?
Well I certainly agree that our industry, infrastructure and housing should not be sold off to foreign investors
Well, isn't this a turnaround? we have me, a proud 'leftie' attacking the people's republic of China,
while we have those who are usually the first to attack socialism and communism defending them and our 'dealings' with them,
just goes to show the power of cash and greed eh?
When did i defend china?
i disagree with you about the best way to improve human rights in china. i think it's through engaging with them. you appear to think it is by not engaging with them.
but yes money is important. it pays for hospitals and things like that.
we certainly do address issues such as human rights. but we've learned that the culture doesn't respond well to the sort of public humiliation we tried for years.
the only way we can influence human rights in china is by engaging. lecturing them achieved nothing. we want their money, but they want to invest it.
Exactly this!
I don't think there's any doubt that China has a poor record in the arena of human rights. But, does this mean that we should place sanctions on them?
No, you talk with them, work with them, trade with them, have freedom of movement with them and the right ideas will triumph in the end. If you try and exclude them from the world, the domestic conversation won't be: how can we modernise our system? It'll be: the outside world is our enemy.
The leadership, instead of finding itself questioned within its own borders, will then galvanise support as a body standing up to the West and fighting for the good of China.
In a stroke, you've gone completely the wrong way!
China is changing a lot, becoming far more liberal than it ever was - and that's happening because of its interface to the outside world. The Chinese are a *very* pragmatic people - if you show them a better way, they won't ignore you. They may not switch to your way of thinking overnight, or to your timetable. But it will happen.
Sorry I didn't mean YOU in particular, I was talking about the thread in general,
:cool:
But China is not being defended in this thread general or otherwise - it is celebrating the fact that a multii-billion deal has been signed and the jobs and money it means for this country.
Few if any would defend the human rights in China, nor the in equalities in that country - but ignoring them will not help those people suffering. China is not going to take a blind bit of notice of a former colonial power - unless there is something in it for them.
Quid pro quo will get you further than shouting on the side-lines.
We have been dealing with Countries that has records on human rights, democratic deficit, and widespread problem with corruption in officialdom.
Why is China any different?
Anything that Cameron did with any trade deal he made with any country must be totally wrong. If Miliband or Balls would have made this deal, assuming either or both of them had the ability to do it in the first place, it would have been absolutely wonderful news.
Comments
so you buy nothing made in China then?
Does everything need to be about party politics? For the love of god, Blair got into bed with Bush! Much worse IMO, at least the chinese are upfront about some of their more questionable (by our western standards) habits. It's no different, we're simply playing footsie with the no1 world power - we've been doing that for a very, very long time.
I'm adoring the irony of all the talk of "but china are nasty!" from social media and various anti-tory outlets at the moment. The stupidity, hypocrisy and ignorance of the sentiment is priceless.
and i take it you know nothing about the value of hypocrisy.
do you know where your fuel (petrol, oil) comes from? chances are its Saudi Arabia - that bastion of democracy and champion of religous freedoms and human rights. (insert huge sarcasm smilie here).
I was expecting this response,
Am I the one doing a multi billion pound trade deal with China?
Am I the one banging on about teaching our kids "British values"? I wouldn't say I go out of my way to avoid things made in China,
like most people I suppose the country of origin of something I buy is quite low down on my list of priorities,
and I speak as someone who was made redundant several times during the 80s as greedy factory bosses laid off their workers in order to exploit the appalling working conditions in China in order to satisfy their own greed,
But if the government/s decided not to trade with countries like China, countries whose growth and increasing wealth and power is directly due to their lack of human rights and protection for their workers, then I wouldn't even have the option would I?
I find it especially galling when the very same PM boasting about the wonderful deal he has just done with these human rights violators and torturers, was only a couple of days ago going on about the importance of teaching our kids "British values"
As I say, these "values" obviously go right out of the window as soon as there is a few quid to be made,
and who will gain the most from these deals? the people who might find jobs due to them, or the rich (mainly Tory voting/funding) investors? I doubt the Chinese workers will see much benefit from them though,
and I was equally as opposed to the deals Labour did with China, just heading off the inevitable "what about Labour then? ner ner ner" response,
Whatever Cam and Os do would be wrong in your eyes because the are Tories. All your posts need to be digested with this in mind. The amount of jobs created with these boys at the helm, are helping hundreds of thousands.
Further what about the jobs that these deals bring here (rather than New Labours come to Britain plenty of jobs for all that New Labour was pushing) Do you think the person struggling to pay for food and a home is going to worry that the money to give him a job comes from China. Do we tell him he must go without to salvage our conscience?
China is in line to become the world's largest economy - do you really think we can ignore that and get up on our high horse - it is going to be very lonely while the rest of the world takes advantage.
You want hypocrisy? here ya go,
Sunday 15 June 2014
http://news.sky.com/story/1282555/pm-urges-uk-to-stand-up-for-british-values
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/chinas-new-human-rights-plan-economic-rights-expense-civil-liberties-20090414
http://news.sky.com/story/1284320/chinas-human-rights-issue-will-not-go-away
is that enough "hypocrisy" for you or would you like some more?
Of course this total abandonment of "British values" when making a few quid is on the table will now be justified by the usual "it will create British jobs" or "It's better to work WITH China to encourage change" (especially when there are billions to be made) and "British values" can DO ONE, and the Chinese can continue to torture and imprison without trial, and crush all dissent etc etc, cause the luverly moolah is rolling in,
See that's where you are wrong, because I was opposed to the deals Labour did with China,
and hey, forget about people being tortured and imprisoned without trail, workers here will get jobs and millionaires will get more millions, so STUFF "British values" eh?
I know I know, principles and morality, freedom democracy human rights, I mean we know that these are "British values" right? but so is making a few quid,
So I'm sorry if I am "on my high horse" but remind me, who was it just a couple of days ago stressing that we shouldn't be afraid to stand up for "British values"?
I am only doing what Dave the leader of the Tory party said we should do, so now I am wrong for agreeing with Dave and the Tories? who'da thunk it?
Your missing the point - We can of course go on about Human rights violations and China will keep on ignoring the point as there is no reason for them to change if we have nothing to offer them.
On the other hand London is the only place in the world outside China where you can exchange their currency, The UK is also getting considerable money from these deals. - but this is not just one way - China will make considerable foreign currency from these deals and that is your leverage to get Human Rights change.
Without them you go to China and you will be lucky to get a shrug and so what?
So your outrage is simply based on the size of the deal, there is no principle involved?
Do you need the Government to decide whether it is principled for you to trade with countries that " forget about democracy, forget about human rights, forget about workers rights, pay, working conditions, health and safety, living conditions, free speech, political freedom, religious freedom, Tibet"?
So as you have already said that you have no problem trading with them unless the Government decides otherwise whats the issue?
You seem to be more interested as usual in having a pop at Cameron and the eeeevil Tories rather than any great matter of principle over trading with countries with poor human rights records.
But it's not just making a few quid is it, it's our entire way of life. We didn't end slavery, we exported it! The economic situation that allows even those in our lowest wealth brackets to enjoy comparatively luxurious and comfortable lifestyles exists ONLY because we have a billion or two humans to exploit that nobody gives much of a shit about.
You said yourself that you own stuff made there, because I'm assuming you (like most sensible people, not having a bash) prioritise getting good value for money when making purchases over the moral implications of supporting the chinese economy. How is this any different? Do you think we as a country can turn away investment at the moment? The government is doing what all of us do, whistling quietly at the ceiling because it cares more about our economic well being than some nameless, faceless people who get treated badly by other countries.
To get on our moral high horse about this whilst enjoying a cheap consumerist lifestyle that continues to exist purely because others in the world are exploited and kept poor is absolutely laughable.
the only way we can influence human rights in china is by engaging. lecturing them achieved nothing. we want their money, but they want to invest it.
To be honest, I have no idea how many, if any, items that I own are/were made in China, my whole point in this "debate" has been the hypocrisy of Cameron, who, not 3 days ago was spouting on about "British values"... not me, I wasn't the one getting all "we are British therefore we have a greater sense of morality and justice, and fair play, than any of those 'foreign types'
I once visited a factory in the far east, not China I admit, it was actually Thailand, but the pay and working conditions/workers rights etc were a shock to me,
My 'then' boss was about to outsource some of his production out there and took me with him because he wanted me to teach the workers some of my techniques, (not before assuring me that my job and the job of the people in the department I ran were safe of course)
what I saw there shocked me, it looked and felt more like a prison than a place of work, the workers all sat at benches in rows they reminded me of battery hens, it was very much a production line environment no skill at all required,
where over here the job required a large amount of skill and yes, pride, a worker would start and finish an entire item themselves,
over there each worker bee would do just one part of the process before passing the product to the next 'bee'
the place had no windows and was just a huge warehouse like building and 'overlookers' patrolled up and down the rows of worker bees, and you could have heard a pin drop, in a building with I would think, about 600 people in it,
I overheard my boss turn to his number 2, who had also come with us, and say "it's a pity we couldn't do this with our lot"
the workers worked a 12 hour day 6 days a week, they got one weeks unpaid holiday a year and most of them lived in dormitories above the factory, they had to have permission to leave the factory after work, and earned the equivalent of around £6 a day, which was thought of as a very good wage indeed,
I was in on the boardroom meeting between my boss and the factory owner, the factory could manufacture package and ship the product to my bosses factory at less than half his current production costs, my boss was almost drooling at the prospect,
Three weeks later I and almost all of the other workers got our redundancy notices, all but a handful of workers were kept on to receive, re package and re stamp the products as made locally, and then dispatch them,
he didn't even lower his prices, the guy was already a multi millionaire who lived in a huge house outside of town, but now he was an even richer multi millionaire and 150 people were now "scroungers" on the dole,
I believe that expecting to "change" a system by actively supporting it is just plain bollox, and an excuse that the exploiters use to justify their greed, because it might very well mean that some people get jobs out of it, but who will be the ones making the vast fortunes from the poor treatment of others?
If the so called "free western economies" decided that getting countries like China to change their ways was really a priority and more important than turning a blind eye to what goes on just so long as a vast profit can be made, then China would have no choice but to change,
Well, isn't this a turnaround? we have me, a proud 'leftie' attacking the people's republic of China,
while we have those who are usually the first to attack socialism and communism defending them and our 'dealings' with them,
just goes to show the power of cash and greed eh?
Well I certainly agree that our industry, infrastructure and housing should not be sold off to foreign investors
When did i defend china?
i disagree with you about the best way to improve human rights in china. i think it's through engaging with them. you appear to think it is by not engaging with them.
but yes money is important. it pays for hospitals and things like that.
Exactly this!
I don't think there's any doubt that China has a poor record in the arena of human rights. But, does this mean that we should place sanctions on them?
No, you talk with them, work with them, trade with them, have freedom of movement with them and the right ideas will triumph in the end. If you try and exclude them from the world, the domestic conversation won't be: how can we modernise our system? It'll be: the outside world is our enemy.
The leadership, instead of finding itself questioned within its own borders, will then galvanise support as a body standing up to the West and fighting for the good of China.
In a stroke, you've gone completely the wrong way!
China is changing a lot, becoming far more liberal than it ever was - and that's happening because of its interface to the outside world. The Chinese are a *very* pragmatic people - if you show them a better way, they won't ignore you. They may not switch to your way of thinking overnight, or to your timetable. But it will happen.
Cameron is not wrong with his approach here.
Regards,
Cypher
:cool:
But China is not being defended in this thread general or otherwise - it is celebrating the fact that a multii-billion deal has been signed and the jobs and money it means for this country.
Few if any would defend the human rights in China, nor the in equalities in that country - but ignoring them will not help those people suffering. China is not going to take a blind bit of notice of a former colonial power - unless there is something in it for them.
Quid pro quo will get you further than shouting on the side-lines.
Why is China any different?
In 20 years time parents will be expected to read to their kids in Chinese!
How would that happen? And what are we selling?