BBC Wales had their own commentators well into the 1990s. Until that point, when it was the 5 Nations, the usual policy was for the BBC network to show one game live and in full. The second game, which often kicked off slightly later, would be shown live and in full to the nations to which it was relevant. The rest of the network would then have fairly brief highlights before joining up live for the final part of the game, if there was time.
Bill McLaren and Nigel Starmer-Smith were two of the commentators used, with Cliff Morgan also a lead commentator until 1987.
Even if Wales was the network game, BBC Wales would have their own commentary. This extended well into the 1990s when Alan Wilkins presented coverage on 'Grandstand Wales'.
The co-commentators in the 1990s (when I was still a young child, so I may not remember everything), were Bill Beaumont and JJ Williams. Micky Skinner was a regular studio guest with Steve Rider.
Actually Cliff Morgan was used until 1973 when he became the BBC's Head of Outside Broadcasts Nigel Starmer Smith took over the Cliff Morgan role from 1974 till 2002
Thanks for the great replies and the information included
much appreciated, but do keep it coming please.
Looking back through tv and you tube archives it struck that during three decades Bill McLaren did every Calcutta Cup match (Sky years excluded), but stopped doing say England v Wales every year after say 1987 (there were exceptions I know) and it seems he never did say Ireland v France in the fixture list.
He rarely did France v Scotland until a one off Grand Slam decider in 1984 & then more regularly from the 1990's onwards.
And on Wales v France there is I think a ten year gap between him covering the Grand Slam deciders of 1978 & 1988.
These are the trends that interest me and even now in the Championship Eddie Butler will do most of England's big games, but the Ireland v France game has become his domain too.
It fascinates me how editors of sports broadcasts have hierarchies in commentary and that the senior man will always have the big game come what may and a pecking order is established and of course this trend happens elsewhere in sports output.
I suppose what triggered my interest was hearing Huw Llywellyn Davies do the 2nd half in Rome for BBC as I do recall him working for the BBC between 1999 and 2001 and I also recall Jim Nielly doing network commentary on Ireland at least once in the old 5 nations.
Really enjoyed the details about BBC Wales coverage which I watched a lot both then and now. The infamous Beatable campaign of 1993 led to some interesting promos, such as the baby in the cot with the words fee fi fo fum I smell the blood of an englishman & the tagline they breed em young in Wales, then of scrum iv from 2005 & 06 & this year with little Scott and his pessimistic dad.
Was sad to hear about David Parry Jones, another great all rounder of broadcasting. His last BBC Rugby Union assignment I recall was presenting coverage of the inaugural World Cup in 1987 with Martyn Williams on commentary. In 1988 David switched to HTV for to present their coverage of Wales' ill fated tour of New Zealand.
Anyway all great stuff to add to the memory banks.
Thanks and as I said do keep it coming
A great thread, trails before matches included the Famous Scrum 4,
I also remember when they used to play highlights reels of matches on BBC Wales in the early 90s on the Saturday evening with upbeat music is we won and downbeat music if Wales lost.
Actually Cliff Morgan was used until 1973 when he became the BBC's Head of Outside Broadcasts Nigel Starmer Smith took over the Cliff Morgan role from 1974 till 2002
Cliff also presented Sport on 4 each Saturday for many years
As someone who only really got into rugby upon moving to Wales ten years ago, I'd be interested to hear how Welsh television covered the club game on the eve of regional rugby during the first few seasons of the Welsh-Scottish League and later the Celtic League. I remember BBC Two Wales and S4C having a similar deal to the one they have now in 2003/04 when the (then five) regions were first created, with the Friday and Saturday live games being pretty much the same ever since, but what was televised prior to that when there were considerably more top level games involving Welsh teams? Also, when did HTV/ITV Wales stop doing covering live rugby (barring the RWC)?
The HTV/S4C deal began ready for the 1997 - 1998 season. This deal meant that for the first time ever, a Welsh club game would be shown live every Saturday. The live game would be shown on S4C, Y Clwb Rygbi, whilst a highlights programme, The Front Row, would be shown on HTV on Sunday. As I said in an earlier thread, the moving of the kick off times to after 5pm for the televised match and the "sexing" up of club rugby by S4C/HTV didn't go down well with supporters at the time. The main commentator for Y Clwb Rygbi when this deal commenced was Wyn Gruffydd, and IIRC Brynmor Williams was the co-commentator, but I could be wrong with Brynmor. For the first season of this deal, touch side reports and features leading to the match were done by Welsh actor Morgan Hopkins (Chip Roberts in Twin Town). I'm not 100% certain, but I think, like today, Y Clwb Rygbi was presented by Gareth Roberts, though I could be wrong. As realwales said earlier, The Front Row was initially presented by Rhodri Williams and then by Alan Wilkins, which at the time was seen as a bit of a coup for HTV. When Alan left, Angus Scott took over for a period before, as realwales said, the final presenting team of Ieuan Evans and Stuart Davies.
Although the below clip is a montage of Valleys club rugby, between 1'37 - 2'09 is the opening titles of Y Clwb Rygbi during the S4C/HTV era. Also at 2'23 - 2'40 there's footage of Ebbw Vale v Pontypridd from Y Clwb Rygbi, complete with the on screen graphic that S4C would've used at the time.
In this clip, although its a tribute to Pontypridd RFC, at 0'50 there's shot of the team coming from the changing rooms and entering the field to the "flashing disco lights" that were introduced as part of the S4C/HTV coverage. This clip also includes footage of Pontypridd v Bath, in the Heineken Cup from 1996, which was shown live on BBC Wales, not sure if it was shown across the network, and footage of another Pontypridd European match, which this time was covered by Sky
The BBC/S4C deal started ready for the 2001 - 2002 season, and it was this deal that saw the introduction of weekly matches on a Friday evening, shown on BBC 2 Wales, with Gareth Charles as commentator. Also, under this deal, Huw Llywellyn Davies now became the main commentator for S4C's matches instead of Wyn Gryffudd. Below is a copy of the press release.
17 July 2001
JOINT BBC/S4C FIVE YEAR PLAN FOR WELSH RUGBY COVERAGE
BBC WALES, S4C and the Welsh Rugby Union, have announced a new five-year television deal for Welsh club rugby.
The new contract means the two broadcasters share the broadcasting rights equally to all Welsh club rugby competitions, including the Welsh-Scottish League, the Principality Cup and the new Celtic League.
Starting from the coming season until the end of the 2005/6 season, the new deal provides the exclusive rights in Wales to broadcast on television, radio and online, in English and in Welsh, on analogue and digital platforms.
The package will provide Welsh rugby fans with two live matches every weekend with BBC Wales broadcasting a game on Friday evenings and S4C covering a match on Saturday evenings. Highlights and analysis will be provided in Y Clwb Rygbi on S4C and on Scrum V on BBC Two Wales.
S4C's Chief Executive, Huw Jones, said: "This contract means that we can guarantee S4C viewers in Wales and throughout the UK, top class club rugby for another five years. S4C have invited tenders for the production contract for its rugby programmes in open competition and interviews will be held very shortly."
Menna Richards, Controller of BBC Wales, said: "Our new partnership with the Welsh Rugby Union and S4C is great news for Welsh rugby fans and for the BBC. We are delighted to be back at the heart of Welsh rugby and that Welsh rugby is back on BBC Wales. The new contract will make Welsh rugby available to the widest possible audience, and will promote the game in Wales at all levels. The BBC already has the rights to the Six Nations Championship as well as the Heineken Cup and this latest contract completes a truly comprehensive rugby portfolio for BBC Wales."
Really enjoyed the details about BBC Wales coverage which I watched a lot both then and now. The infamous Beatable campaign of 1993 led to some interesting promos, such as the baby in the cot with the words fee fi fo fum I smell the blood of an englishman & the tagline they breed em young in Wales, then of scrum iv from 2005 & 06 & this year with little Scott and his pessimistic dad.
A great thread, trails before matches included the Famous Scrum 4,
I also remember when they used to play highlights reels of matches on BBC Wales in the early 90s on the Saturday evening with upbeat music is we won and downbeat music if Wales lost.
And don't forget Henrey's Heroes. These were based on the Hannah Barberra cartoons of the 60's/70's
Note how in the third trailer, for England v Wales at Twickers, coverage is billed as being on Radio Wales. There's no mention of tv coverage. This is because, at this time, SKY had the exclusive live tv rights for England matches at Twickers.
Also, here's an article from the Welsh Mirror about Henry's Heroes published prior to the Ireland game.
"HENRY'S Heroes started off as a bit of a cartoon caper before Welsh rugby's Six Nations drama turned it into a nightmare.
Makers at BBC Wales spent months putting together a solid stock of characters to call on before every match. But then a roll-call of disasters made life a misery for the men behind the scenes.
First they lost ex-captain Robert Howley, axed because of his poor form.
Then out went record breaking kicking machine Neil Jenkins after being struck down by injury. He was closely followed by Shane Howarth, a high profile victim of the "grandadgate" scandal, but the biggest blow was the resignation of fitness coach Steve Black who took a starring role in the animated action.
He even recorded his own Geordie voice to use in the popular capers which have gripped Welsh rugby fans' imagination.
Even man-mountain Craig Quinnell, who was transformed into a flower-carrying sensitive soul, had to be dropped after a chronic back injury.
So for the final promotion before Saturday's clash against Ireland, the Beeb couldn't resist putting Graham Henry on a sinking ship, and they even joked about the off-pitch scandal which made Welsh rugby the laughing stock of the world.
Despite all the changes, there was one player the Beeb knew it could rely on to take Blackie's place - trusty skipper Dai Young.
The guest appearance this week comes from BBC news anchorman Huw Edwards.
Graham Henry begins the promo in thoughtful mood in Fishguard before setting sail for Lansdowne Road.
He says: "Well guys, it wasn't a fantastic season was it?"
Dai Young tries to gee him up, saying: "Don't say that. Let's end the season on a high."
Then the Kiwi coach responds: "But do you think the boys are still behind me?"
And in a joke about Grandadgate, Dai says: "Of course, Graham. You're as Welsh as anyone who has worn that red shirt."
The team is likened to a sinking ship later on as it crosses the Irish Sea on the Titanic II.
Graham says: "Finally we are on our way. What could possibly go wrong?"
Then in comes Huw Edwards who butts in with a news bulletin: "Good evening. In the past few minutes we have been getting reports of a large iceberg in the Irish Sea."
And without ending the season on too low a note, the coach says: "We're still going to make it. It's just going to take a little longer than we thought."
BBC Promotions Director Dylan Griffith said: "We wanted to have a bit of a laugh about everything that has gone wrong this season so we drew parallels with the Titanic, which helped us bring in Huw Edwards.
"And now the eligibility row has erupted, there was no point ignoring it.
"What we are saying is Graham Henry has not cracked it yet, but he is the right man for the job."
The latest cartoon follows a series showing the highs and lows of the Welsh season.
Rock group Stereophonics, commentator Bill McLaren and rugby legend Jonathan Davies have all starred.
As a viewer of Scrum V on the BBC Red Button a Friday night when Ulster are not playing when was that introduced was it 2001 then and when did the Rugby Special Wales brand stop?
In Northern Ireland the Rugby Special from Northern Ireland brand was being used on TV right up to 2010 when BBC NI won the rights to the Celtic League and called the programme Ulster Rugby Live but Rugby Special was used for Ulster highlights when Ulster won the Celtic League in 2005 and for Ireland Autumn Internationals not covered by the BBC but shown by BBC NI.
Also BBC Radio Ulster still use Rugby Special on the Radio for Ulster Heineken Cup matches or Ireland 6 Nations matches played on a Friday or Sunday.
Did BBC ever opt out of Grandstand for the old SWALEC Cup Final?
Yes they did. The SWALEC and Schweppes, as it was before SWALEC, Cup Final was always shown live on both BBC 1 Wales and S4C. The semi-finals were shown live too, especially in the 90's, often with one semi-final being on BBC Wales with the other being shown on S4C
As a viewer of Scrum V on the BBC Red Button a Friday night when Ulster are not playing when was that introduced was it 2001 then and when did the Rugby Special Wales brand stop? .
The Rugby Special Wales brand stopped in the mid 90's, I think someone has already stated that Scrum V was used at the start of the 95-96 season, so RSW would've stopped at the end of 94-95 season. Not sure when the RSW brand began, but it was definatley in use by the mid 80's, with Wales having a different edition of Rugby Special.
Prior to the S4C/HTV deal live Welsh club rugby matches weren't on that often and were few and far between. As stated earlier, the Cup Final games were always shown live on both BBC Wales and S4C as were the semi -finals. The live club rugby games on S4C were BBC productions with Huw Llywellyn Davies and Ray Gravelle providing the commentary, as they did with the internationals. Sometimes, BBC Wales did show a live club match, but again it was few and far between.
When the touring southern hemispher countries visited, especially in the late 80's/early 90's, their Saturday matches were either shown on BBC, with Wales opting out of Grandstand, or S4C, or sometimes both. If the match was only live on S4C, for example, then BBC Wales would show extended highlights of the match. The midweek matches, played in the afternoon against the clubs would again be either shown on S4C, or this time on BBC 2 Wales.
Below is a clip of Swansea v New Zealand from October 1989. The commentators are Lyn Davies and Phil Bennett. Interesting comment by Lyn at 6'37 where he says "Warren Gatland is the New Zealand hooker and this is his first taste of Welsh Rugby on Welsh soil"
Here's S4C's coverage of Llanelli v Australia from November 1992. This was a BBC production and Russell Isaac is the presenter, who incidently became involved in the production of Y Clwb Rygbi during the S4C/HTV era. The commentators are Huw Llywellyn Davies and Ray Gravelle. This clip is the programme and match in full complete with BBC Cymru enboard!!!
In the 80's early 90's Welsh club rugby highlights were shared between BBC Wales and HTV, often with BBC having first choice of matches. As we've mentioned the highlights programme on BBC Wales was Rugby Special Wales before becoming Scrum V, whilst HTV had Rugby Round Up, which launched in 1988. I don't recall the name of the programme before that, it may have been called something like Rugby or Club Rugby. In addition to RSW and Scrum V, BBC Wales also had Wales on Saturday which began in 1989. Initially it was presented by Bob Humphrys, Alan Wilkins and Medwin (can't recall his sirname, but I think it may have been Hughes). Wales on Saturday would opt out of Grandstand just before Final Score and would be a comprehensive round up of Welsh sport but mainly rugby and football. It also included a news bulletin. Medwin would be based in the Bangor studio and he would present a round up of the Welsh football League and their results. IIRC, the programme lasted about 50 minutes to an hour which meant BBC Wales opting out of the network programme which followed Grandstand, though something tells me, that the second part of the programme continued on BBC 2 Wales. Maybe someone can help with that one.
S4C, throughout the 80's, showed highlights of club rugby on Y Maes Chwarae (The Playing Field) and in the 90's, Tocyn Tymor (Season Ticket). Both were BBC Wales productions which went out on a Saturday night. As well as rugby, they covered other sports. Below is a clip of Y Maes Chwarae from 24 January 1987. The clip concentrates on the Schweppes Cup Third Round matches. The presenter, with the north Wales accent and in the beige suit is Keith Jones, but I can't recall who the presenter is in the grey suit with the west Walien accent is.The featured match of the round is Neath v Llanelli, with Jonathan Davies playing for Neath. Huw Llywellyn Davies is the commentator, for which he does a piece to camera at 7'47 before the match highlights are shown. At the end of the match Jonathan Davies does an interview at 26'15. The clip ends with Keith Jones saying that the draw for the 4th round can be seen live on Rugby Special Wales. The grey suited presenter then reads out more club rugby results before announcing the French team thats due to play Wales a fortnight later whilst a clip of France v New Zealand is played.
Prior to the featured match, there's a brief highlights package of Cardiff v Llanharan where the reporter is Andy Bell, then more results are read out, before there's a package on Maesteg v Swansea, reporter is Edward Bevan, then more results are read out before going to the featured match and Huw Llywellyn Davies' piece to camera.
I remember seeing brief highlights of Llanelli's famous win over the All Blacks in 1972 and IIRC there was Welsh commentary. This was obviously in pre - S4C days so did BBC Wales sometimes use Welsh language commentary?
I remember seeing brief highlights of Llanelli's famous win over the All Blacks in 1972 and IIRC there was Welsh commentary. This was obviously in pre - S4C days so did BBC Wales sometimes use Welsh language commentary?
I could be wrong, and I'm happy to be corrected, but I don't think there was any Welsh language rugby (or any sport come to think of it) commentary on tv prior to S4C starting in 1982. Before the days of S4C, it was only via the radio you could get live commentary in Welsh of sporting events. Don't get me wrong, there were probably sport magazine/interest shows broadcast in Welsh on HTV/TWW and BBC Wales etc prior to the S4C days, along with interviews with Welsh speaking sport stars in news bulletins, but with regard to commentating on live matches, it was only via the radio you could hear a match through the medium of Welsh
The Rugby Special Wales brand stopped in the mid 90's, I think someone has already stated that Scrum V was used at the start of the 95-96 season, so RSW would've stopped at the end of 94-95 season. Not sure when the RSW brand began, but it was definatley in use by the mid 80's, with Wales having a different edition of Rugby Special.
Prior to the S4C/HTV deal live Welsh club rugby matches weren't on that often and were few and far between. As stated earlier, the Cup Final games were always shown live on both BBC Wales and S4C as were the semi -finals. The live club rugby games on S4C were BBC productions with Huw Llywellyn Davies and Ray Gravelle providing the commentary, as they did with the internationals. Sometimes, BBC Wales did show a live club match, but again it was few and far between.
When the touring southern hemispher countries visited, especially in the late 80's/early 90's, their Saturday matches were either shown on BBC, with Wales opting out of Grandstand, or S4C, or sometimes both. If the match was only live on S4C, for example, then BBC Wales would show extended highlights of the match. The midweek matches, played in the afternoon against the clubs would again be either shown on S4C, or this time on BBC 2 Wales.
Below is a clip of Swansea v New Zealand from October 1989. The commentators are Lyn Davies and Phil Bennett. Interesting comment by Lyn at 6'37 where he says "Warren Gatland is the New Zealand hooker and this is his first taste of Welsh Rugby on Welsh soil"
Here's S4C's coverage of Llanelli v Australia from November 1992. This was a BBC production and Russell Isaac is the presenter, who incidently became involved in the production of Y Clwb Rygbi during the S4C/HTV era. The commentators are Huw Llywellyn Davies and Ray Gravelle. This clip is the programme and match in full complete with BBC Cymru enboard!!!
In the 80's early 90's Welsh club rugby highlights were shared between BBC Wales and HTV, often with BBC having first choice of matches. As we've mentioned the highlights programme on BBC Wales was Rugby Special Wales before becoming Scrum V, whilst HTV had Rugby Round Up, which launched in 1988. I don't recall the name of the programme before that, it may have been called something like Rugby or Club Rugby. In addition to RSW and Scrum V, BBC Wales also had Wales on Saturday which began in 1989. Initially it was presented by Bob Humphrys, Alan Wilkins and Medwin (can't recall his sirname, but I think it may have been Hughes). Wales on Saturday would opt out of Grandstand just before Final Score and would be a comprehensive round up of Welsh sport but mainly rugby and football. It also included a news bulletin. Medwin would be based in the Bangor studio and he would present a round up of the Welsh football League and their results. IIRC, the programme lasted about 50 minutes to an hour which meant BBC Wales opting out of the network programme which followed Grandstand, though something tells me, that the second part of the programme continued on BBC 2 Wales. Maybe someone can help with that one.
S4C, throughout the 80's, showed highlights of club rugby on Y Maes Chwarae (The Playing Field) and in the 90's, Tocyn Tymor (Season Ticket). Both were BBC Wales productions which went out on a Saturday night. As well as rugby, they covered other sports. Below is a clip of Y Maes Chwarae from 24 January 1987. The clip concentrates on the Schweppes Cup Third Round matches. The presenter, with the north Wales accent and in the beige suit is Keith Jones, but I can't recall who the presenter is in the grey suit with the west Walien accent is.The featured match of the round is Neath v Llanelli, with Jonathan Davies playing for Neath. Huw Llywellyn Davies is the commentator, for which he does a piece to camera at 7'47 before the match highlights are shown. At the end of the match Jonathan Davies does an interview at 26'15. The clip ends with Keith Jones saying that the draw for the 4th round can be seen live on Rugby Special Wales. The grey suited presenter then reads out more club rugby results before announcing the French team thats due to play Wales a fortnight later whilst a clip of France v New Zealand is played.
Prior to the featured match, there's a brief highlights package of Cardiff v Llanharan where the reporter is Andy Bell, then more results are read out, before there's a package on Maesteg v Swansea, reporter is Edward Bevan, then more results are read out before going to the featured match and Huw Llywellyn Davies' piece to camera.
I'm too young to remember the very early years of Wales on Saturday, but when I started watching it in the early 1990s, it was a stand-alone programme shown after Grandstand. Alan Wilkins would do an introduction, which would be followed by a news bulletin, read by one of the Wales Today team, and then we'd have the extended sports news and highlights.
At some point in the mid-1990s, when Wilkins was still there, the programme got split in two. We had 'Wales on Saturday - The Results', which would opt out of Final Score on Grandstand. Then, after the network teatime news, 'Wales on Saturday - The Magazine' would begin (which had a separate graphics package to 'The Results'). Again, we'd start with a news bulletin, followed by sports results and highlights. At some stage, I think 'The Magazine' got moved to BBC Two Wales, especially if BBC One had significant network Saturday evening programmes.
When Wilkins left (I think he fell out with BBC Wales, though continued to work for 5 Live for a good while afterwards), he was replaced as presenter by ex-boxer Nicky Piper. Both he and his wife, ex-HTV Wales newsreader Juliet Piper, are lovely people, but Nicky wasn't really cut out for presenting. He's a great analyst and pundit on Sky's boxing coverage to this day, but presenting wasn't his forte and he only lasted a season. I think I'm right in saying that by this time, 'Wales on Saturday' was back to being just a single programme.
Piper was replaced by Ian Gwyn Hughes and Frances Donovan, and the programme by now just opted out of Final Score and the cartoon or filler programme that followed on the network. There was far less emphasis on League of Wales / Welsh Premiership football in its latter years. By the time BBC Wales/S4C started doing Y Clwb Rygbi, they'd normally be off air by 5:30pm so that the hardcore Welsh sports audience could watch the match on S4C, which would be cross-promoted.
I'm too young to remember the very early years of Wales on Saturday, but when I started watching it in the early 1990s, it was a stand-alone programme shown after Grandstand. Alan Wilkins would do an introduction, which would be followed by a news bulletin, read by one of the Wales Today team, and then we'd have the extended sports news and highlights.
At some point in the mid-1990s, when Wilkins was still there, the programme got split in two. We had 'Wales on Saturday - The Results', which would opt out of Final Score on Grandstand. Then, after the network teatime news, 'Wales on Saturday - The Magazine' would begin (which had a separate graphics package to 'The Results'). Again, we'd start with a news bulletin, followed by sports results and highlights. At some stage, I think 'The Magazine' got moved to BBC Two Wales, especially if BBC One had significant network Saturday evening programmes.
When Wilkins left (I think he fell out with BBC Wales, though continued to work for 5 Live for a good while afterwards), he was replaced as presenter by ex-boxer Nicky Piper. Both he and his wife, ex-HTV Wales newsreader Juliet Piper, are lovely people, but Nicky wasn't really cut out for presenting. He's a great analyst and pundit on Sky's boxing coverage to this day, but presenting wasn't his forte and he only lasted a season. I think I'm right in saying that by this time, 'Wales on Saturday' was back to being just a single programme.
Piper was replaced by Ian Gwyn Hughes and Frances Donovan, and the programme by now just opted out of Final Score and the cartoon or filler programme that followed on the network. There was far less emphasis on League of Wales / Welsh Premiership football in its latter years. By the time BBC Wales/S4C started doing Y Clwb Rygbi, they'd normally be off air by 5:30pm so that the hardcore Welsh sports audience could watch the match on S4C, which would be cross-promoted.
Thanks for that realwales. It's cleared a few things up for me, especially about part two of Wales on Saturday continuing on BBC 2. I see that TV Ark has a clip of the first ever Wales on Saturday.
Found this quote from Ian Gwyn Hughes, from a few years ago, possibly at the time when the HTV/S4C deal was still running. IGH was asked about Welsh language sports broadcasting.
“Well, the BBC has to provide - by law - a certain amount of hours of sports coverage for S4C. It’s the law of the land - and that explains the existence of Gol and Welsh-language coverage of other football, rugby and snooker. Bizarrely though, S4C outbid the BBC for Welsh domestic rugby - when, actually, they could have got it for nothing. The BBC still has the Internationals and European Cup rugby for the next four years.”
But had S4C/HTV not secured a deal with the WRU would there have been live club rugby on S4C every Saturday evening, which of course then led to the arrangement we now have of live domestic rugby every Friday and Saturday evening, and sometimes Sunday afternoon
I don't really have much to add to the Wales on Saturday memories, but it came about as part of a determined push to get more Wales programming on BBC1 Wales, at the beginning of 1989. For its first six weeks, it was followed by a cheap and nasty BBC Wales quiz called Box 'Em In. By mid-February, BBC Wales had been overwhelmed with complaints about all the network programmes they'd been replacing, and the post WoS slot was used to catch up on a network sitcom they'd opted out of on Thursday nights.
The BBC Wales documentary series Between Ourselves which they'd been airing in the Thursday 8.30pm slot was dropped from BBC1 Wales after eight of its twelve editions, and re-appeared on BBC2 Wales, where it was recommissioned, perhaps as a face-saving measure.
The upshot of it all was Wales on Saturday being the only long-term programme to come out of the plans to get more Wales programming on BBC1 Wales, and, apart from WoS, by spring 1989, the amount of Wales programming on BBC1 Wales was back down to 1988 levels.
BBC Wales had another determined push to schedule more of their own content in January 1993, and they really went to town by having more content than ever, but they only stuck it out until June 1993, and the second half of the year saw the schedules returning to normal.
By the way, Between Ourselves was horifically dull. Scroll down to BBC1 Wales Promos 1989 on this link, and see for yourself:
Thanks for the many fantastic, informative posts you have made today WesternMale, particularly for replying to my post about the coverage club rugby received on Welsh television leading up to the formation of the regional teams we have today. I look forward to watching the links you have provided properly when I get a chance.
I guess not much has changed from the deal agreed at the start of the 2001/02 season over the last 11 years, with BBC Wales and S4C (which as you say now heavily cross-promote their respective sports coverage and share Red Button commentaries in the relevant languages and interviews on highlights and magazine shows) signing renewals to the initial five-season Celtic League deal in 2006 (for a further four seasons) and in 2010 (another four years signed with a year remaining on the last contract). The current deal runs through until the end of next season and unless something drastic happens I can't imagine the arrangement we have now not being extended for a further four years.
I still have a few questions to pose though regarding the changes at the turn of the Millennium. At the end of their 1997/98 to 2000/01 deal to screen Welsh Premiership matches, did HTV Wales (which would become ITV Wales a year later) just discontinue their rugby union coverage (barring their Rugby World Cup opt-outs) there and then? 2001/02 was the ITV Sport Channel season when the ITV regions would broadcast Soccer Sunday and selected live Football League games most weekends, so it would not surprise me if they just shifted their sports department's emphasis to football at that point.
Regarding the BBC Wales deal, when they first started broadcasting Welsh-Scottish League/Celtic League live games and highlights, were the mainstays of their team always Eddie Butler as Friday live game presenter, Gareth Charles and Jonathan Davies as their regular commentary team, Phil Steele as reporter and Graham Thomas as Sunday magazine show host prior to the "Ruddockgate" related presenting changes in 2006 or did they use any other regulars during the first half of the decade? I presume Stuart Davies came over from HTV Wales fairly soon after the rights changed as well.
And what was BBC Wales' rugby union coverage like prior to the 2001/02 deal that gave them regular live matches, both in terms of personnel and coverage? I know the BBC had some access to the Heineken Cup before Sky gained exclusivity. How long did their deal to that run for, what did it allow them to do and did BBC Wales (and the other nations) do many opt-outs? Had Charlo become their main commentator by this point or did he only move over to TV from Radio Wales/Cymru in 2001?
Sorry for the mountain of questions but the information that you, realwales and others have provided so far has been superb. Thanks again.
I could be wrong, and I'm happy to be corrected, but I don't think there was any Welsh language rugby (or any sport come to think of it) commentary on tv prior to S4C starting in 1982. Before the days of S4C, it was only via the radio you could get live commentary in Welsh of sporting events.
That's correct, I have several copies of the Wales Radio Times from before 1982 and indeed they didn't do Welsh language commentary on live rugby. Only very occasionally it seems you got a Welsh language highlights programme if it was a special occasion, like a team from a predominantly Welsh-speaking area or something.
Of course when S4C began they didn't just do Welsh language commentary on rugby but also more or less anything the Beeb had of interest to Wales, including snooker (cos there were lots of Welsh players in their pomp) or fights involving Welsh boxers.
At some stage, I think 'The Magazine' got moved to BBC Two Wales, especially if BBC One had significant network Saturday evening programmes.
Soecifically it moved in 1996 to make way for The Simpsons at 5.30 on Saturday, much to the uproar in our local paper in Wrexham because the Wrexham transmitter could only broadcast BBC1 Wales and S4C, not BBC2 Wales (hence why when Wrexham were in the FA Cup quarter final that season, they had to show it on BBC1 Wales rather than BBC2).
I don't really have much to add to the Wales on Saturday memories, but it came about as part of a determined push to get more Wales programming on BBC1 Wales, at the beginning of 1989. For its first six weeks, it was followed by a cheap and nasty BBC Wales quiz called Box 'Em In. By mid-February, BBC Wales had been overwhelmed with complaints about all the network programmes they'd been replacing, and the post WoS slot was used to catch up on a network sitcom they'd opted out of on Thursday nights.
Joint Account! Of course on Saturday teatimes in 1988 was Invasion, the quiz with one Rob Brydon Jones. I also remember in 1993 they opted out on Tuesday night for a Neil Kinnock-fronted chat show.
did the BBC not have all the Heineken Cup until around 2004 when Sky got it. BBC NI used to have all Ulster matches in the competition in that period and I am pretty sure BBC Scotland would have covered Edinburgh and Glasgow while BBC Wales would have covered the Welsh teams.
Joint Account! Of course on Saturday teatimes in 1988 was Invasion, the quiz with one Rob Brydon Jones. I also remember in 1993 they opted out on Tuesday night for a Neil Kinnock-fronted chat show.
I'd completely forgotten about Invasion, but it rings a bell now. I remember Neil Kinnock's Six of One. It came back for a second series in 1994. I can't remember if there was a third.
I'd also forgotten about Sportfolio getting that extended Saturday night run until I stumbled on that TV Ark clip.
Thanks for the many fantastic, informative posts you have made today WesternMale, particularly for replying to my post about the coverage club rugby received on Welsh television leading up to the formation of the regional teams we have today. I look forward to watching the links you have provided properly when I get a chance.
I guess not much has changed from the deal agreed at the start of the 2001/02 season over the last 11 years, with BBC Wales and S4C (which as you say now heavily cross-promote their respective sports coverage and share Red Button commentaries in the relevant languages and interviews on highlights and magazine shows) signing renewals to the initial five-season Celtic League deal in 2006 (for a further four seasons) and in 2010 (another four years signed with a year remaining on the last contract). The current deal runs through until the end of next season and unless something drastic happens I can't imagine the arrangement we have now not being extended for a further four years.
I still have a few questions to pose though regarding the changes at the turn of the Millennium. At the end of their 1997/98 to 2000/01 deal to screen Welsh Premiership matches, did HTV Wales (which would become ITV Wales a year later) just discontinue their rugby union coverage (barring their Rugby World Cup opt-outs) there and then? 2001/02 was the ITV Sport Channel season when the ITV regions would broadcast Soccer Sunday and selected live Football League games most weekends, so it would not surprise me if they just shifted their sports department's emphasis to football at that point.
Regarding the BBC Wales deal, when they first started broadcasting Welsh-Scottish League/Celtic League live games and highlights, were the mainstays of their team always Eddie Butler as Friday live game presenter, Gareth Charles and Jonathan Davies as their regular commentary team, Phil Steele as reporter and Graham Thomas as Sunday magazine show host prior to the "Ruddockgate" related presenting changes in 2006 or did they use any other regulars during the first half of the decade? I presume Stuart Davies came over from HTV Wales fairly soon after the rights changed as well.
And what was BBC Wales' rugby union coverage like prior to the 2001/02 deal that gave them regular live matches, both in terms of personnel and coverage? I know the BBC had some access to the Heineken Cup before Sky gained exclusivity. How long did their deal to that run for, what did it allow them to do and did BBC Wales (and the other nations) do many opt-outs? Had Charlo become their main commentator by this point or did he only move over to TV from Radio Wales/Cymru in 2001?
Sorry for the mountain of questions but the information that you, realwales and others have provided so far has been superb. Thanks again.
Once the HTV/S4C deal ended, there wasn't any more club rugby shown on HTV/ITV Wales.
Prior to 2001, the BBC would show either highlights of Welsh clubs in European action on Scrum V or opt out of network during Saturday afternoons to show a live match. Below is a clip from the start of Scrum V where they opted out of the network for the now infamous Brive v Pontypridd match. This match was shown on BBC Wales on 14/09/1997. Alan Wilkins was the presenter with Eddie Butler and Jonathan Davies, whilst the commentary was by Huw Llywellyn Davies and JJ Williams.
The return match at Pontypridd, on 27/09/1997 was shown on Sky with Neil Durden Smith presenting, whilst the third match, back at Brive on 01/11/1997, was shown on BBC Wales, with Alan Wilkins presenting and commentary from Gareth Charles and JJ Williams.
I don't know when exactly the European deal ended but as can be seen from this clip, Eddie Butler and Jonathan Davies are now the Scrum V presenters and this is a Friday night European match from 20/10/2000
The first season of the Heineken Cup, HTV and S4C would show matches involving Welsh teams. The very first European match played in Wales was on Thursday 22 November 1995 between Pontypridd and Milan. The first half of the match was shown live on S4C, whilst the second half was shown live on HTV. S4C's coverage didn't have a presenter, instead it went straight to the commentary team of Wyn Gryffudd and Allan Lewis, who was the Llanelli coach at the time. Below is a clip of the start of the programme, whilst the second clip is the end of the programme. At 4'20 of the second clip, a caption appears on the screen, both in Welsh and in English, stating that the second half will continue on HTV, whilst Wyn Gryffudd also tells the viewers to switch over to HTV for the second half.
HTV's coverage was presented by Steve Taylor with studio guests Mike Ruddock, Swansea coach at the time, and Pontypridd player Dale MacIntosh, whilst Bob Symonds commentated along with Mike Ruddock. Rhodri Davies was the pitchside reporter. The first clip is the start of the programme, including an HTV Sport ident, whilst the second clip is a studio shot following an ad break at the end of the match
I don't know when exactly the European deal ended but as can be seen from this clip, Eddie Butler and Jonathan Davies are now the Scrum V presenters and this is a Friday night European match from 20/10/2000
did the BBC not have all the Heineken Cup until around 2004 when Sky got it. BBC NI used to have all Ulster matches in the competition in that period and I am pretty sure BBC Scotland would have covered Edinburgh and Glasgow while BBC Wales would have covered the Welsh teams.
BBC Scotland never showed anything really of European rugby of Edinburgh, Glasgow or the Borders.
BBC Scotland never showed anything really of European rugby of Edinburgh, Glasgow or the Borders.
I'm pretty certain Edinburgh vs Ulster in 1998-9 season (when Ulster went on to lift the HC) was shown live on BBC Scotland as I remember seeing brief highlights of the match on BBCNI. Strangely the first game in Belfast wasn't covered live by BBC NI though they showed later Ulster matches including the Quarter and semi-finals from Ravenhill.
On a different note altogether BBC1 Wales have a fascinating documentary on Barry John at 9.00pm tonight.
Comments
A great thread, trails before matches included the Famous Scrum 4,
I also remember when they used to play highlights reels of matches on BBC Wales in the early 90s on the Saturday evening with upbeat music is we won and downbeat music if Wales lost.
Sorry, meant Widnes.:o Yesterday was a long day!!!
Cliff also presented Sport on 4 each Saturday for many years
The HTV/S4C deal began ready for the 1997 - 1998 season. This deal meant that for the first time ever, a Welsh club game would be shown live every Saturday. The live game would be shown on S4C, Y Clwb Rygbi, whilst a highlights programme, The Front Row, would be shown on HTV on Sunday. As I said in an earlier thread, the moving of the kick off times to after 5pm for the televised match and the "sexing" up of club rugby by S4C/HTV didn't go down well with supporters at the time. The main commentator for Y Clwb Rygbi when this deal commenced was Wyn Gruffydd, and IIRC Brynmor Williams was the co-commentator, but I could be wrong with Brynmor. For the first season of this deal, touch side reports and features leading to the match were done by Welsh actor Morgan Hopkins (Chip Roberts in Twin Town). I'm not 100% certain, but I think, like today, Y Clwb Rygbi was presented by Gareth Roberts, though I could be wrong. As realwales said earlier, The Front Row was initially presented by Rhodri Williams and then by Alan Wilkins, which at the time was seen as a bit of a coup for HTV. When Alan left, Angus Scott took over for a period before, as realwales said, the final presenting team of Ieuan Evans and Stuart Davies.
Although the below clip is a montage of Valleys club rugby, between 1'37 - 2'09 is the opening titles of Y Clwb Rygbi during the S4C/HTV era. Also at 2'23 - 2'40 there's footage of Ebbw Vale v Pontypridd from Y Clwb Rygbi, complete with the on screen graphic that S4C would've used at the time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTIwMWZm1-w
In this clip, although its a tribute to Pontypridd RFC, at 0'50 there's shot of the team coming from the changing rooms and entering the field to the "flashing disco lights" that were introduced as part of the S4C/HTV coverage. This clip also includes footage of Pontypridd v Bath, in the Heineken Cup from 1996, which was shown live on BBC Wales, not sure if it was shown across the network, and footage of another Pontypridd European match, which this time was covered by Sky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ9ZsLNF10w
The BBC/S4C deal started ready for the 2001 - 2002 season, and it was this deal that saw the introduction of weekly matches on a Friday evening, shown on BBC 2 Wales, with Gareth Charles as commentator. Also, under this deal, Huw Llywellyn Davies now became the main commentator for S4C's matches instead of Wyn Gryffudd. Below is a copy of the press release.
17 July 2001
JOINT BBC/S4C FIVE YEAR PLAN FOR WELSH RUGBY COVERAGE
BBC WALES, S4C and the Welsh Rugby Union, have announced a new five-year television deal for Welsh club rugby.
The new contract means the two broadcasters share the broadcasting rights equally to all Welsh club rugby competitions, including the Welsh-Scottish League, the Principality Cup and the new Celtic League.
Starting from the coming season until the end of the 2005/6 season, the new deal provides the exclusive rights in Wales to broadcast on television, radio and online, in English and in Welsh, on analogue and digital platforms.
The package will provide Welsh rugby fans with two live matches every weekend with BBC Wales broadcasting a game on Friday evenings and S4C covering a match on Saturday evenings. Highlights and analysis will be provided in Y Clwb Rygbi on S4C and on Scrum V on BBC Two Wales.
S4C's Chief Executive, Huw Jones, said: "This contract means that we can guarantee S4C viewers in Wales and throughout the UK, top class club rugby for another five years. S4C have invited tenders for the production contract for its rugby programmes in open competition and interviews will be held very shortly."
Menna Richards, Controller of BBC Wales, said: "Our new partnership with the Welsh Rugby Union and S4C is great news for Welsh rugby fans and for the BBC. We are delighted to be back at the heart of Welsh rugby and that Welsh rugby is back on BBC Wales. The new contract will make Welsh rugby available to the widest possible audience, and will promote the game in Wales at all levels. The BBC already has the rights to the Six Nations Championship as well as the Heineken Cup and this latest contract completes a truly comprehensive rugby portfolio for BBC Wales."
And don't forget Henrey's Heroes. These were based on the Hannah Barberra cartoons of the 60's/70's
http://vimeo.com/4043396
http://vimeo.com/4043131
http://vimeo.com/4043530
http://vimeo.com/4043781
http://vimeo.com/4044176
Note how in the third trailer, for England v Wales at Twickers, coverage is billed as being on Radio Wales. There's no mention of tv coverage. This is because, at this time, SKY had the exclusive live tv rights for England matches at Twickers.
Also, here's an article from the Welsh Mirror about Henry's Heroes published prior to the Ireland game.
"HENRY'S Heroes started off as a bit of a cartoon caper before Welsh rugby's Six Nations drama turned it into a nightmare.
Makers at BBC Wales spent months putting together a solid stock of characters to call on before every match. But then a roll-call of disasters made life a misery for the men behind the scenes.
First they lost ex-captain Robert Howley, axed because of his poor form.
Then out went record breaking kicking machine Neil Jenkins after being struck down by injury. He was closely followed by Shane Howarth, a high profile victim of the "grandadgate" scandal, but the biggest blow was the resignation of fitness coach Steve Black who took a starring role in the animated action.
He even recorded his own Geordie voice to use in the popular capers which have gripped Welsh rugby fans' imagination.
Even man-mountain Craig Quinnell, who was transformed into a flower-carrying sensitive soul, had to be dropped after a chronic back injury.
So for the final promotion before Saturday's clash against Ireland, the Beeb couldn't resist putting Graham Henry on a sinking ship, and they even joked about the off-pitch scandal which made Welsh rugby the laughing stock of the world.
Despite all the changes, there was one player the Beeb knew it could rely on to take Blackie's place - trusty skipper Dai Young.
The guest appearance this week comes from BBC news anchorman Huw Edwards.
Graham Henry begins the promo in thoughtful mood in Fishguard before setting sail for Lansdowne Road.
He says: "Well guys, it wasn't a fantastic season was it?"
Dai Young tries to gee him up, saying: "Don't say that. Let's end the season on a high."
Then the Kiwi coach responds: "But do you think the boys are still behind me?"
And in a joke about Grandadgate, Dai says: "Of course, Graham. You're as Welsh as anyone who has worn that red shirt."
The team is likened to a sinking ship later on as it crosses the Irish Sea on the Titanic II.
Graham says: "Finally we are on our way. What could possibly go wrong?"
Then in comes Huw Edwards who butts in with a news bulletin: "Good evening. In the past few minutes we have been getting reports of a large iceberg in the Irish Sea."
And without ending the season on too low a note, the coach says: "We're still going to make it. It's just going to take a little longer than we thought."
BBC Promotions Director Dylan Griffith said: "We wanted to have a bit of a laugh about everything that has gone wrong this season so we drew parallels with the Titanic, which helped us bring in Huw Edwards.
"And now the eligibility row has erupted, there was no point ignoring it.
"What we are saying is Graham Henry has not cracked it yet, but he is the right man for the job."
The latest cartoon follows a series showing the highs and lows of the Welsh season.
Rock group Stereophonics, commentator Bill McLaren and rugby legend Jonathan Davies have all starred.
n.servini@mirror.co.uk
COPYRIGHT 2000 MGN LTD"
In Northern Ireland the Rugby Special from Northern Ireland brand was being used on TV right up to 2010 when BBC NI won the rights to the Celtic League and called the programme Ulster Rugby Live but Rugby Special was used for Ulster highlights when Ulster won the Celtic League in 2005 and for Ireland Autumn Internationals not covered by the BBC but shown by BBC NI.
Also BBC Radio Ulster still use Rugby Special on the Radio for Ulster Heineken Cup matches or Ireland 6 Nations matches played on a Friday or Sunday.
Yes they did. The SWALEC and Schweppes, as it was before SWALEC, Cup Final was always shown live on both BBC 1 Wales and S4C. The semi-finals were shown live too, especially in the 90's, often with one semi-final being on BBC Wales with the other being shown on S4C
The Rugby Special Wales brand stopped in the mid 90's, I think someone has already stated that Scrum V was used at the start of the 95-96 season, so RSW would've stopped at the end of 94-95 season. Not sure when the RSW brand began, but it was definatley in use by the mid 80's, with Wales having a different edition of Rugby Special.
Prior to the S4C/HTV deal live Welsh club rugby matches weren't on that often and were few and far between. As stated earlier, the Cup Final games were always shown live on both BBC Wales and S4C as were the semi -finals. The live club rugby games on S4C were BBC productions with Huw Llywellyn Davies and Ray Gravelle providing the commentary, as they did with the internationals. Sometimes, BBC Wales did show a live club match, but again it was few and far between.
When the touring southern hemispher countries visited, especially in the late 80's/early 90's, their Saturday matches were either shown on BBC, with Wales opting out of Grandstand, or S4C, or sometimes both. If the match was only live on S4C, for example, then BBC Wales would show extended highlights of the match. The midweek matches, played in the afternoon against the clubs would again be either shown on S4C, or this time on BBC 2 Wales.
Below is a clip of Swansea v New Zealand from October 1989. The commentators are Lyn Davies and Phil Bennett. Interesting comment by Lyn at 6'37 where he says "Warren Gatland is the New Zealand hooker and this is his first taste of Welsh Rugby on Welsh soil"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moFSLz3g3gw
Here's S4C's coverage of Llanelli v Australia from November 1992. This was a BBC production and Russell Isaac is the presenter, who incidently became involved in the production of Y Clwb Rygbi during the S4C/HTV era. The commentators are Huw Llywellyn Davies and Ray Gravelle. This clip is the programme and match in full complete with BBC Cymru enboard!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4oVN2ea4y4
And here's the start of Rugby Special Wales, where they have opted out to show a live match between Pontypridd and South Africa from November 1994
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CzbBf2Q4f8
In the 80's early 90's Welsh club rugby highlights were shared between BBC Wales and HTV, often with BBC having first choice of matches. As we've mentioned the highlights programme on BBC Wales was Rugby Special Wales before becoming Scrum V, whilst HTV had Rugby Round Up, which launched in 1988. I don't recall the name of the programme before that, it may have been called something like Rugby or Club Rugby. In addition to RSW and Scrum V, BBC Wales also had Wales on Saturday which began in 1989. Initially it was presented by Bob Humphrys, Alan Wilkins and Medwin (can't recall his sirname, but I think it may have been Hughes). Wales on Saturday would opt out of Grandstand just before Final Score and would be a comprehensive round up of Welsh sport but mainly rugby and football. It also included a news bulletin. Medwin would be based in the Bangor studio and he would present a round up of the Welsh football League and their results. IIRC, the programme lasted about 50 minutes to an hour which meant BBC Wales opting out of the network programme which followed Grandstand, though something tells me, that the second part of the programme continued on BBC 2 Wales. Maybe someone can help with that one.
S4C, throughout the 80's, showed highlights of club rugby on Y Maes Chwarae (The Playing Field) and in the 90's, Tocyn Tymor (Season Ticket). Both were BBC Wales productions which went out on a Saturday night. As well as rugby, they covered other sports. Below is a clip of Y Maes Chwarae from 24 January 1987. The clip concentrates on the Schweppes Cup Third Round matches. The presenter, with the north Wales accent and in the beige suit is Keith Jones, but I can't recall who the presenter is in the grey suit with the west Walien accent is.The featured match of the round is Neath v Llanelli, with Jonathan Davies playing for Neath. Huw Llywellyn Davies is the commentator, for which he does a piece to camera at 7'47 before the match highlights are shown. At the end of the match Jonathan Davies does an interview at 26'15. The clip ends with Keith Jones saying that the draw for the 4th round can be seen live on Rugby Special Wales. The grey suited presenter then reads out more club rugby results before announcing the French team thats due to play Wales a fortnight later whilst a clip of France v New Zealand is played.
Prior to the featured match, there's a brief highlights package of Cardiff v Llanharan where the reporter is Andy Bell, then more results are read out, before there's a package on Maesteg v Swansea, reporter is Edward Bevan, then more results are read out before going to the featured match and Huw Llywellyn Davies' piece to camera.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3YwFQVjco8
I could be wrong, and I'm happy to be corrected, but I don't think there was any Welsh language rugby (or any sport come to think of it) commentary on tv prior to S4C starting in 1982. Before the days of S4C, it was only via the radio you could get live commentary in Welsh of sporting events. Don't get me wrong, there were probably sport magazine/interest shows broadcast in Welsh on HTV/TWW and BBC Wales etc prior to the S4C days, along with interviews with Welsh speaking sport stars in news bulletins, but with regard to commentating on live matches, it was only via the radio you could hear a match through the medium of Welsh
I'm too young to remember the very early years of Wales on Saturday, but when I started watching it in the early 1990s, it was a stand-alone programme shown after Grandstand. Alan Wilkins would do an introduction, which would be followed by a news bulletin, read by one of the Wales Today team, and then we'd have the extended sports news and highlights.
At some point in the mid-1990s, when Wilkins was still there, the programme got split in two. We had 'Wales on Saturday - The Results', which would opt out of Final Score on Grandstand. Then, after the network teatime news, 'Wales on Saturday - The Magazine' would begin (which had a separate graphics package to 'The Results'). Again, we'd start with a news bulletin, followed by sports results and highlights. At some stage, I think 'The Magazine' got moved to BBC Two Wales, especially if BBC One had significant network Saturday evening programmes.
When Wilkins left (I think he fell out with BBC Wales, though continued to work for 5 Live for a good while afterwards), he was replaced as presenter by ex-boxer Nicky Piper. Both he and his wife, ex-HTV Wales newsreader Juliet Piper, are lovely people, but Nicky wasn't really cut out for presenting. He's a great analyst and pundit on Sky's boxing coverage to this day, but presenting wasn't his forte and he only lasted a season. I think I'm right in saying that by this time, 'Wales on Saturday' was back to being just a single programme.
Piper was replaced by Ian Gwyn Hughes and Frances Donovan, and the programme by now just opted out of Final Score and the cartoon or filler programme that followed on the network. There was far less emphasis on League of Wales / Welsh Premiership football in its latter years. By the time BBC Wales/S4C started doing Y Clwb Rygbi, they'd normally be off air by 5:30pm so that the hardcore Welsh sports audience could watch the match on S4C, which would be cross-promoted.
Thanks for that realwales. It's cleared a few things up for me, especially about part two of Wales on Saturday continuing on BBC 2. I see that TV Ark has a clip of the first ever Wales on Saturday.
Found this quote from Ian Gwyn Hughes, from a few years ago, possibly at the time when the HTV/S4C deal was still running. IGH was asked about Welsh language sports broadcasting.
“Well, the BBC has to provide - by law - a certain amount of hours of sports coverage for S4C. It’s the law of the land - and that explains the existence of Gol and Welsh-language coverage of other football, rugby and snooker. Bizarrely though, S4C outbid the BBC for Welsh domestic rugby - when, actually, they could have got it for nothing. The BBC still has the Internationals and European Cup rugby for the next four years.”
But had S4C/HTV not secured a deal with the WRU would there have been live club rugby on S4C every Saturday evening, which of course then led to the arrangement we now have of live domestic rugby every Friday and Saturday evening, and sometimes Sunday afternoon
The BBC Wales documentary series Between Ourselves which they'd been airing in the Thursday 8.30pm slot was dropped from BBC1 Wales after eight of its twelve editions, and re-appeared on BBC2 Wales, where it was recommissioned, perhaps as a face-saving measure.
The upshot of it all was Wales on Saturday being the only long-term programme to come out of the plans to get more Wales programming on BBC1 Wales, and, apart from WoS, by spring 1989, the amount of Wales programming on BBC1 Wales was back down to 1988 levels.
BBC Wales had another determined push to schedule more of their own content in January 1993, and they really went to town by having more content than ever, but they only stuck it out until June 1993, and the second half of the year saw the schedules returning to normal.
By the way, Between Ourselves was horifically dull. Scroll down to BBC1 Wales Promos 1989 on this link, and see for yourself:
http://www2.tv-ark.org.uk/bbc_wales/bbc1.html
I guess not much has changed from the deal agreed at the start of the 2001/02 season over the last 11 years, with BBC Wales and S4C (which as you say now heavily cross-promote their respective sports coverage and share Red Button commentaries in the relevant languages and interviews on highlights and magazine shows) signing renewals to the initial five-season Celtic League deal in 2006 (for a further four seasons) and in 2010 (another four years signed with a year remaining on the last contract). The current deal runs through until the end of next season and unless something drastic happens I can't imagine the arrangement we have now not being extended for a further four years.
I still have a few questions to pose though regarding the changes at the turn of the Millennium. At the end of their 1997/98 to 2000/01 deal to screen Welsh Premiership matches, did HTV Wales (which would become ITV Wales a year later) just discontinue their rugby union coverage (barring their Rugby World Cup opt-outs) there and then? 2001/02 was the ITV Sport Channel season when the ITV regions would broadcast Soccer Sunday and selected live Football League games most weekends, so it would not surprise me if they just shifted their sports department's emphasis to football at that point.
Regarding the BBC Wales deal, when they first started broadcasting Welsh-Scottish League/Celtic League live games and highlights, were the mainstays of their team always Eddie Butler as Friday live game presenter, Gareth Charles and Jonathan Davies as their regular commentary team, Phil Steele as reporter and Graham Thomas as Sunday magazine show host prior to the "Ruddockgate" related presenting changes in 2006 or did they use any other regulars during the first half of the decade? I presume Stuart Davies came over from HTV Wales fairly soon after the rights changed as well.
And what was BBC Wales' rugby union coverage like prior to the 2001/02 deal that gave them regular live matches, both in terms of personnel and coverage? I know the BBC had some access to the Heineken Cup before Sky gained exclusivity. How long did their deal to that run for, what did it allow them to do and did BBC Wales (and the other nations) do many opt-outs? Had Charlo become their main commentator by this point or did he only move over to TV from Radio Wales/Cymru in 2001?
Sorry for the mountain of questions but the information that you, realwales and others have provided so far has been superb. Thanks again.
That's correct, I have several copies of the Wales Radio Times from before 1982 and indeed they didn't do Welsh language commentary on live rugby. Only very occasionally it seems you got a Welsh language highlights programme if it was a special occasion, like a team from a predominantly Welsh-speaking area or something.
Of course when S4C began they didn't just do Welsh language commentary on rugby but also more or less anything the Beeb had of interest to Wales, including snooker (cos there were lots of Welsh players in their pomp) or fights involving Welsh boxers.
Soecifically it moved in 1996 to make way for The Simpsons at 5.30 on Saturday, much to the uproar in our local paper in Wrexham because the Wrexham transmitter could only broadcast BBC1 Wales and S4C, not BBC2 Wales (hence why when Wrexham were in the FA Cup quarter final that season, they had to show it on BBC1 Wales rather than BBC2).
Joint Account! Of course on Saturday teatimes in 1988 was Invasion, the quiz with one Rob Brydon Jones. I also remember in 1993 they opted out on Tuesday night for a Neil Kinnock-fronted chat show.
I'd also forgotten about Sportfolio getting that extended Saturday night run until I stumbled on that TV Ark clip.
Once the HTV/S4C deal ended, there wasn't any more club rugby shown on HTV/ITV Wales.
Prior to 2001, the BBC would show either highlights of Welsh clubs in European action on Scrum V or opt out of network during Saturday afternoons to show a live match. Below is a clip from the start of Scrum V where they opted out of the network for the now infamous Brive v Pontypridd match. This match was shown on BBC Wales on 14/09/1997. Alan Wilkins was the presenter with Eddie Butler and Jonathan Davies, whilst the commentary was by Huw Llywellyn Davies and JJ Williams.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pkt_DBQMg8
The return match at Pontypridd, on 27/09/1997 was shown on Sky with Neil Durden Smith presenting, whilst the third match, back at Brive on 01/11/1997, was shown on BBC Wales, with Alan Wilkins presenting and commentary from Gareth Charles and JJ Williams.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWh1dIrzGDA.
I don't know when exactly the European deal ended but as can be seen from this clip, Eddie Butler and Jonathan Davies are now the Scrum V presenters and this is a Friday night European match from 20/10/2000
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTjH2WYqQEc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQdVo0qis00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUU22cVU3lw
HTV's coverage was presented by Steve Taylor with studio guests Mike Ruddock, Swansea coach at the time, and Pontypridd player Dale MacIntosh, whilst Bob Symonds commentated along with Mike Ruddock. Rhodri Davies was the pitchside reporter. The first clip is the start of the programme, including an HTV Sport ident, whilst the second clip is a studio shot following an ad break at the end of the match
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2z4UrlJZ2A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8dkP4PIw3E
HTV also showed live coverage of that seasons final between Toulouse and Cardiff at the National Stadium, Cardiff,
Forgot to add that the commentators for that match were Huw Llywellyn Davies and JJ Williams.
Apologies to everyone if I've seemed to have hogged this discussion topic.
BBC Scotland never showed anything really of European rugby of Edinburgh, Glasgow or the Borders.
I'm pretty certain Edinburgh vs Ulster in 1998-9 season (when Ulster went on to lift the HC) was shown live on BBC Scotland as I remember seeing brief highlights of the match on BBCNI. Strangely the first game in Belfast wasn't covered live by BBC NI though they showed later Ulster matches including the Quarter and semi-finals from Ravenhill.
On a different note altogether BBC1 Wales have a fascinating documentary on Barry John at 9.00pm tonight.