With apologies to those who feel they have strong connections to certain characters, I think the decision to have Amy at the end was appropriate. I think, in iconic terms, Amy is generally perceived as the main Matt Smith companion, in the same way that Rose is generally perceived as the main David Tenant companion.
Except for the 300+ years where he went off on his own if he liked her that much he wouldn't have done that
I disagree he kept her Alive to him by traveling, he existed 10 years in the ponds life, so no I think they meant so much to him he gave them a life but still had his life with them as well
I disagree he kept her Alive to him by traveling, he existed 10 years in the ponds life, so no I think they meant so much to him he gave them a life but still had his life with them as well
Exactly.
Why did he come back to them after all that time if they didn't mean anything to him? Angels Take Manhattan was after all of the disappearances and it didn't see as if any of that time had changed how close he was to Amy.
It wasn't really about him seeing the most important person, or the one he'd been with more, etc. He saw the first face that face saw, which was Amy.
I don't for a second think Amy meant more to him than River, Rory, Clara, and even companions from his past incarnations, I think he loves them equally, but it was about this incarnation coming full circle, seeing the very first person who met this face.
It should have been little Amelia who said goodbye to her Raggedy Man, that would have been best of all. However the actress really isn't going to pass as 7 yrs old anymore - they couldn't even use a glimpse of her giggling when he first started hallucinating, they needed another actress.
I think it should have been River instead of Tasha, rather than instead of Amy. Tasha behaved the same as River and the Doctor reacted to her the same way that he does to River. It really felt as if the script had initially included River as the Mother Superior. Either that or Moffat just rehashed exactly the same character. Remember Alex Kingston did the voiceover in AGMGTW?
The Doctor certainly has a type - if he does online dating, his requirements would be
1)Struggling with their inner psychopath
2)Able to pilot a spaceship that can travel in time and space
3)Dalek Killer
4)Can rise from the dead, without rotting and stinking out the place.
Because it wasn't a proper marriage. I saw that more as an in joke between them tbh because, let's face it, he never married her because he loved her and wanted to so much. He undoubtedly cared for River but Clara absolutely hit the nail on the head when she said the psychotics were totally his type. He indulges with those who he could never have a 'normal' relationship with. The normal, simple, loving relationship is just too scary for a man always moving and who doesn't like to face those around him ageing and having to say goodbye (he sends Clara away on Trenzalore not just to keep her safe but because he can't bear to see her age and to bury her.)
We know from what River has said before that she's had plenty of other lovers even after her 'marriage' to him and frankly I wish they'd played that up more instead of making it seem like she was obsessing over a man who didn't treat her that well at all.
In the programme he clearly Says 'River Song, Totally Married Her. Wouldn't be where I am without her' The implication is clear: he married her body & soul and he believe she means a lot to him
In AGMGTW he says 'She's in prison all her days, but her nights!!'
And can please you tell me once where she says she had lovers? She says she dated but do you know where in her timeline that was?
I don't know about you but I think he looked pretty bad at saying goodbye to her in Name of the Doctor, not someone who didn't care in the least for her.
For as great as I think both Alex Kingston and character River Song were, as other commentators have in my opinion correctly said, she had a great 'goodbye' scene in Name OTD. It was fitting and right that Amy should be the once who finally says 'goodnight (note, not goodbye)' thereby echoing the poem that 11th hour has passed; time for 12. That scene with Gillen also gives a better ending for her too, than the snatched ending she & Rory had.
One last thing: Some people have complained about the transition period in the regeneration scene being too quick. They have in my opinion, missed the point. Matt Smith made it clear that he wanted Peter Capaldi to have the best start point. And that means saying goodbye and getting out of the picture ASAP and not lingering on & on. From the time Clara enters the TARDIS until Matt Smith is gone is just 3 minutes 23 seconds exactly. Not dragging it out is what also gives it it's impact. Well done Matt for being a hero right up to the very last second. Not many other actors would have done that.
In the programme he clearly Says 'River Song, Totally Married Her. Wouldn't be where I am without her' The implication is clear: he married her body & soul and he believe she means a lot to him
Actually a robot version of him married her and he was pretty damn furious at her at the time for endangering the entire universe. Not exactly fluffy
Of course he cared about her a great deal, but there was no 'one true love' thing going on. The marriage is more of an amusement for them. River had her own adventures, her own lovers (Moffat mentioned this before including the fact she is bisexual) and thank goodness for that! River deserved better than waiting for him in prison. She didn't want to travel with him or stay with him and thank goodness for that. He could indulge her because, just like Tasha Lem, she was a bit of a psychopath and there was no chance of a 'typical' relationship ever forming. As I said, Clara got it spot on when she says the Doctor has a type!
That's why it's so very right that it was Amy and Clara there with him in the end. He loved River and Rory as well but those two were just that bit more special to him imo. Amy was the first face he saw and no one has done more for him than Clara.
I think Moffett wanted to give this doctor, his doctor, a formal goodbye. A character was needed, and Amy was present for most of Matt's time as the Doctor.( I still don't know what number he was because of the changes introduced in the 50th Ann.)
He had two nicknames: Sweety and Raggedy Man. Raggedy Man felt more appropriate, as if we, the fans , we're saying it. IMO.
The emotional impact of the scene was lost on me as I was too busy wondering why Amy looked so different. Something about her hair and her face. Wasn't really even sure if it was Karen Gillan until I saw the credits. I actually think it might have been better if they gave that "moment" to Clara or another character. He already got to see young Amelia anyway.
She was wearing a VERY obvious wig due to Karen shaving her head for a role
Except for the 300+ years where he went off on his own if he liked her that much he wouldn't have done that
Ok but where actually is it stated that he went off for 300+ years on his own? In all of Series 5 and 6 apart from the beginning of The Impossible Astronaut and The Wedding of River Song, he is 900+ years old. After the end of Closing Time when he's sure he's heading to his death, he travels around for around 200 years, delaying as much as possible, before finally accepting that it's time and heading to Lake Silencio at 1100+ years old.
After that comes the years where he lets everyone think he's dead, even though unbeknownst to him Amy and Rory know otherwise thanks to River (TDTWATW) - an unspecified amount of time. And then there's Series 7 Part 1, where he visits them and takes them on adventures but also gives them breaks to let them lead their lives at home. There are clearly more than the adventures we see on screen too, as is shown in The Power of Three when the Doctor takes them for their anniversary present and they end up with a "Zygon ship under the Savoy". In The Day of the Doctor he says he thinks he's "Eleven-hundred and something", so he has lost count, but he can still estimate that he's 1100+, so I think it'd be fair to say he can't be that much older than 1200 at the oldest at that point. So not really leaving them for 300 years now is it?
7.1 was a bit confusing. Amy and Rory nearly divorce because they can't have children. Forgetting the adult daughter married to their best freind . One minute Amy told him to visit more often. Next she was telling him to wait because their freinds were ageing at a slower rate!. 11 seemed to spend more time with his parents in law then his wife. Amy and Rory should have told him to spend tiem with his wife and concentrate on his marriage.11 knew how and when River was goign to die. Wouldn't he have wanted to spend as much time with her as possible before the library ?. To missquote Hepburn "I'm so sorry I can't be my mother!".
Well firstly, growing up with your daughter as your best friend only to find out she's your daughter, after having her taken from you when she was a baby, and then having to leave her behind until later... not exactly what most people are thinking of when they say they want kids. I'm pretty sure this was more like, having kids and raising them properly in a normal environment, actually seeing them grow and being able to tuck them into bed at night, read them stories, see them off at school, etc... I don't see why this seems so hard for some people to understand. Yes they have a child, but they never got to raise her properly as parents and they'll never get that opportunity back with her.
Visiting more often =/= staying for multiple adventures at once
She wants him to visit more often so they can go on an adventure or two, but doesn't want to stay too long away from their home life as she misses that too and their friends could be starting to notice their seemingly faster ageing... that's what I got from it anyway.
And finally... It's made very clear that River and the Doctor spend lots of off-screen time together. The 'Night and the Doctor' minisodes on the Complete Series 6 DVD Box Set feature multiple scenes involving or mentioning River. There's also 'The Rain Gods' bonus feature on the Complete Series 7 DVD Box Set and the line from The Wedding of River song (after Dorium comments on her spending all her days in prison) - "Her days, yes. Her nights? Well, that's between her and me, eh?" So I'd say he probably visited her many times between his visits to Amy and Rory, we just didn't see them.
Because it wasn't a proper marriage. I saw that more as an in joke between them tbh because, let's face it, he never married her because he loved her and wanted to so much. He undoubtedly cared for River but Clara absolutely hit the nail on the head when she said the psychotics were totally his type. He indulges with those who he could never have a 'normal' relationship with. The normal, simple, loving relationship is just too scary for a man always moving and who doesn't like to face those around him ageing and having to say goodbye (he sends Clara away on Trenzalore not just to keep her safe but because he can't bear to see her age and to bury her.)
We know from what River has said before that she's had plenty of other lovers even after her 'marriage' to him and frankly I wish they'd played that up more instead of making it seem like she was obsessing over a man who didn't treat her that well at all.
Couldn't agree more. I also saw the marriage as a practical marriage, and that he did care for River, but she didn't come across as the love of his life.
If Elisabeth Sladen had still been around he might have been saying goodbye to his Sarah Jane.
Yes, as the previous one did.
I would have preferred the goodbye to have been from Amy with Rory the Legend Centurion, whom the Doctor treated as an equal at times and without whom Melody / River would not have existed.
Whilst River would have made sense too, I also have no doubts that she'll be back with 12 at some point. It will be a missed opportunity if she isn't. For that reason, Amy was definitely the right choice. As others have said, it brought 11's story full circle.
Comments
I disagree he kept her Alive to him by traveling, he existed 10 years in the ponds life, so no I think they meant so much to him he gave them a life but still had his life with them as well
Exactly.
Why did he come back to them after all that time if they didn't mean anything to him? Angels Take Manhattan was after all of the disappearances and it didn't see as if any of that time had changed how close he was to Amy.
I don't for a second think Amy meant more to him than River, Rory, Clara, and even companions from his past incarnations, I think he loves them equally, but it was about this incarnation coming full circle, seeing the very first person who met this face.
I think it should have been River instead of Tasha, rather than instead of Amy. Tasha behaved the same as River and the Doctor reacted to her the same way that he does to River. It really felt as if the script had initially included River as the Mother Superior. Either that or Moffat just rehashed exactly the same character. Remember Alex Kingston did the voiceover in AGMGTW?
The Doctor certainly has a type - if he does online dating, his requirements would be
1)Struggling with their inner psychopath
2)Able to pilot a spaceship that can travel in time and space
3)Dalek Killer
4)Can rise from the dead, without rotting and stinking out the place.
No wonder he's lonely!
It may have been 200 years or so for the Doctor, but to the Ponds it was a matter of months or a couple of years at the most.
In the programme he clearly Says 'River Song, Totally Married Her. Wouldn't be where I am without her' The implication is clear: he married her body & soul and he believe she means a lot to him
In AGMGTW he says 'She's in prison all her days, but her nights!!'
And can please you tell me once where she says she had lovers? She says she dated but do you know where in her timeline that was?
I don't know about you but I think he looked pretty bad at saying goodbye to her in Name of the Doctor, not someone who didn't care in the least for her.
For as great as I think both Alex Kingston and character River Song were, as other commentators have in my opinion correctly said, she had a great 'goodbye' scene in Name OTD. It was fitting and right that Amy should be the once who finally says 'goodnight (note, not goodbye)' thereby echoing the poem that 11th hour has passed; time for 12. That scene with Gillen also gives a better ending for her too, than the snatched ending she & Rory had.
One last thing: Some people have complained about the transition period in the regeneration scene being too quick. They have in my opinion, missed the point. Matt Smith made it clear that he wanted Peter Capaldi to have the best start point. And that means saying goodbye and getting out of the picture ASAP and not lingering on & on. From the time Clara enters the TARDIS until Matt Smith is gone is just 3 minutes 23 seconds exactly. Not dragging it out is what also gives it it's impact. Well done Matt for being a hero right up to the very last second. Not many other actors would have done that.
...and don't forget what she said to Ten in the Library, that he looked so young - which to me ALWAYS meant that she knew an older Doctor ;-)
I would assume that she's going to make an appearance with Peter Capaldi's Doctor...
Actually a robot version of him married her and he was pretty damn furious at her at the time for endangering the entire universe. Not exactly fluffy
Of course he cared about her a great deal, but there was no 'one true love' thing going on. The marriage is more of an amusement for them. River had her own adventures, her own lovers (Moffat mentioned this before including the fact she is bisexual) and thank goodness for that! River deserved better than waiting for him in prison. She didn't want to travel with him or stay with him and thank goodness for that. He could indulge her because, just like Tasha Lem, she was a bit of a psychopath and there was no chance of a 'typical' relationship ever forming. As I said, Clara got it spot on when she says the Doctor has a type!
That's why it's so very right that it was Amy and Clara there with him in the end. He loved River and Rory as well but those two were just that bit more special to him imo. Amy was the first face he saw and no one has done more for him than Clara.
He had two nicknames: Sweety and Raggedy Man. Raggedy Man felt more appropriate, as if we, the fans , we're saying it. IMO.
She was wearing a VERY obvious wig due to Karen shaving her head for a role
Thus, Karen and Matt started Doctor Who with hair and ended Doctor Who being bald... must be one stressful job...
Ok but where actually is it stated that he went off for 300+ years on his own? In all of Series 5 and 6 apart from the beginning of The Impossible Astronaut and The Wedding of River Song, he is 900+ years old. After the end of Closing Time when he's sure he's heading to his death, he travels around for around 200 years, delaying as much as possible, before finally accepting that it's time and heading to Lake Silencio at 1100+ years old.
After that comes the years where he lets everyone think he's dead, even though unbeknownst to him Amy and Rory know otherwise thanks to River (TDTWATW) - an unspecified amount of time. And then there's Series 7 Part 1, where he visits them and takes them on adventures but also gives them breaks to let them lead their lives at home. There are clearly more than the adventures we see on screen too, as is shown in The Power of Three when the Doctor takes them for their anniversary present and they end up with a "Zygon ship under the Savoy". In The Day of the Doctor he says he thinks he's "Eleven-hundred and something", so he has lost count, but he can still estimate that he's 1100+, so I think it'd be fair to say he can't be that much older than 1200 at the oldest at that point. So not really leaving them for 300 years now is it?
Well firstly, growing up with your daughter as your best friend only to find out she's your daughter, after having her taken from you when she was a baby, and then having to leave her behind until later... not exactly what most people are thinking of when they say they want kids. I'm pretty sure this was more like, having kids and raising them properly in a normal environment, actually seeing them grow and being able to tuck them into bed at night, read them stories, see them off at school, etc... I don't see why this seems so hard for some people to understand. Yes they have a child, but they never got to raise her properly as parents and they'll never get that opportunity back with her.
Visiting more often =/= staying for multiple adventures at once
She wants him to visit more often so they can go on an adventure or two, but doesn't want to stay too long away from their home life as she misses that too and their friends could be starting to notice their seemingly faster ageing... that's what I got from it anyway.
And finally... It's made very clear that River and the Doctor spend lots of off-screen time together. The 'Night and the Doctor' minisodes on the Complete Series 6 DVD Box Set feature multiple scenes involving or mentioning River. There's also 'The Rain Gods' bonus feature on the Complete Series 7 DVD Box Set and the line from The Wedding of River song (after Dorium comments on her spending all her days in prison) - "Her days, yes. Her nights? Well, that's between her and me, eh?" So I'd say he probably visited her many times between his visits to Amy and Rory, we just didn't see them.
Couldn't agree more. I also saw the marriage as a practical marriage, and that he did care for River, but she didn't come across as the love of his life.
Bringing it full circle as has been quoted numerous times on this thread
Yes, as the previous one did.
I would have preferred the goodbye to have been from Amy with Rory the Legend Centurion, whom the Doctor treated as an equal at times and without whom Melody / River would not have existed.
I f*cking hope so.
And apparently the wig was made of her actual hair?! (so I read)