Annoyed at so-called Torchwood/JB Fans...(BIG Plot Spoilers!)

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 11,991
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    Just found this, a writer's response to the so called fandom who feel that this is no more TW or whatever it is that they think!


    http://jamesmoran.blogspot.com/2009/07/stepping-back.html
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 11,991
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    I agree with you that too much current sci-fi indulges too much in dystopian futures.
    In one way somebody might say that's good, because they are 'warning' us,...apparently.

    But, when people see too many retellings of that scenario wouldn't it kind of lead them to subconsciously believe that it's inevitable and become a self-fulfilling prophecy?

    But which sci-fi did you grow up with that provided alternative futures?
    What period of sci-fi are you speaking of and which films or TV shows are you thinking of?

    As for RTD. Even though I've sometimes criticised many of his stories on their style, execution, or simply the way he treats comedy or humour, one thing which has always been prevalent throughout his entire run is that he always implores his viewers to think, look, observe, and question.
    He will even call you, yes you, chip eating morons if he thinks it will have an effect on you.
    He will present a possible future which may not good and may find yourself sleepwalking into if you're not careful,...but...he always tries to show what the individual human spirit is capable of and how they can stop that nightmare future happening in it's tracks and create another alternative.
    Yes there may be mawkishness and sentimentality along the way, which apparently works for many people even if that style isn't to my personal taste. But he does get those ideas I described above in there.

    I really enjoy Stephen Moffat's stories. Two of which I found excellent. But 'everybody lives' is an approach which is less authentic in a way. It may be nice to have a feelgood ending like that every time, but is it truthful? Is he being truthful?
    I don't know, but I have to be fair and balance RTD and Stephen Moffat's methods against each other.
    Not in a 'who is better than the other?' situation, but comparing their approaches when it comes to what ideas they want to present to a viewer and what those ideas may be.

    Maybe RTD's ideas are more inspirational because he sometimes challenges viewers to look into themselves and ask themselves questions?
    Maybe Moffat is less inspirational because he may imply that somebody will probably come along and sort it all out for you, and everybody just sort of gets lucky and lives?
    You can end on a high, it might be nice, but that in itself isn't necessarily inspirational. It might be filling people's heads with false delusions that everything will have a happy ending and kind of sort itself out?
    I'm not necessarily saying that's how it is, I'm just asking other people.


    Excellent points.....it shows my belief that nearly every RTD episode is has so many layers in it....
  • Muttley76Muttley76 Posts: 97,888
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    crazzyaz7 wrote: »
    Just found this, a writer's response to the so called fandom who feel that this is no more TW or whatever it is that they think!


    http://jamesmoran.blogspot.com/2009/07/stepping-back.html
    But the ONLY person I need to please is myself, and the ONLY thing I need to serve is the story. Not you. I will do my work to the very best of my ability, in an attempt to give you the best show, the best movie, the best story, the best entertainment I possibly can. Even if that means that sometimes, I'll do things you won't like. I won't debate it. Either you go along with it, or you don't.

    very well said. Bravo to the man for not taking their sh*t. I hope at least some of them are ashamed of themselves now.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 11,991
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    Muttley76 wrote: »
    very well said. Bravo to the man for not taking their sh*t. I hope at least some of them are ashamed of themselves now.

    And its the right attitude for him to take, or there is a danger that he could become very unconfident in what he writes.....thinking "oh I wonder if this means I will displease so and so" and so on......I applaud him for his stance, especially after reading some of that bile thrown at him!!!!!!!
  • Eowyn WEowyn W Posts: 6,792
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    crazzyaz7 wrote: »
    Just found this, a writer's response to the so called fandom who feel that this is no more TW or whatever it is that they think!


    http://jamesmoran.blogspot.com/2009/07/stepping-back.html

    Thank you for posting that. I'm so pleased Mr Moran decided to speak back about some of the dreadful things people have been saying about him and to him - as he says, it is easy over the internet to say things you would not say to someone in person.

    To make personal attacks on someone doing their job is shameful and embarrassing to the majority of fandom who would not dream of doing such a thing. I hope this does make those who were verbally abusing him realise he is just a man doing a job and not a hate figure.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 6,666
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    I think that there's probably a lot of truth to what you say there.

    I think of what was mentioned above by somebody about the apparently 'inspirational' beautiful vision of Star Trek and the utopia it presents to the viewer.
    "Lovely" somebody may think on the surface, or "That's an inspirational message on how people could or should live and be like".

    You may have seen my post about dystopia, so you know that I love them. I've also absolutely loved CoE from beginning to end.
    But I'm also a Trekker. Please, please, can you take the quoting marks off inspirational ?;)
    Because it is ! Even if at times it can be patronizing, I recognize it. And if you say you just don't like Star Trek, fine by me because to each his own.
    But Rodenberry did something that has on me the same effect than a good and bleak dystopia : it makes me want to take a stand in this world to make it better, to fight for some values if ever the need arises.
    Just like Gwen and Jack and Ianto, and the people in the estate, and Lois, and PC Andy did in CoE.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 6,666
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    crazzyaz7 wrote: »
    Just found this, a writer's response to the so called fandom who feel that this is no more TW or whatever it is that they think!


    http://jamesmoran.blogspot.com/2009/07/stepping-back.html

    Good for him !
  • syramusyramu Posts: 1,053
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    Good for him, standing up for himself! It's a shame that he has decided he has to step away and not talk about his writing with the fans anymore because of what happened, but I can understand that.

    Good grief, I can't believe how some people are overreacting to events in CoE! Ianto was a good character, an interesting character. Sometimes characters die. At the time of her death, Tosh was my favorite, but her death was part of a story and sometimes characters have to die, even when the death seems random or pointless. 0Ianto was in a scifi show, working for an organization which stores the dead bodies of employees, so he might come back, but if the people sending death threats don't tone things down, they risk backlash from the showrunners and actors, meaning any returns might be nixed (which would be just as silly, but I believe such things have happened in other shows).

    Can you imagine how crowded TV shows would be if no characters would be allowed to die or go away? For that matter, the show Torchwood wouldn't even exist, then, because Captain Jack would still be on the TARDIS hanging out with at least seven Doctors and a myriad of companions.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 618
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    Muttley76 wrote: »
    oh please, can i just check, are you saying that you know better than the writer of the show how he should write his own show? If you don't like what RTD has done with TW, then don't watch it. It's very simple.

    I will watch what I want to watch, regardless of whether you think I should. I admit the show was bloody good drama, and yes I enjoyed it. My comments were not aimed just at the latest TW episodes but at current sci-fi in general. RTD can ofcourse write his drama in any way that he see's fit, I was simply pointing out a valid alternative.
    However you have not right to tell him he is writing it wrongly because he doesn't cater to your every whim.

    I did not say that he wrote it wrongly, but I do have the right to express my oppinion. Just because I have a different view to you does not mean that I have to be silent.
    Not all drama needs to be dark, but sometimes it works well if it is, as is the case with TW this week. If you can't hack it being dark then go rewatch the terrible fix it ending to FOTD instead.

    Dark endings can work, if they make you think, just like light endings, but the thing is that we need both in order to achieve a sensible balance. So are you saying that SM wrote the ending of FOTD wrongly? Maybe you should take your own advice "If you don't like what SM has done with DW, then don't watch it." It's very simple.
    This thread is concerned with the morons out there totally over reacting to how it was planned for TW to end. What are your thoughts on people sending hate mail to James Moran, who didn't even write the episode? Or being abusive towards JB? Would you defend such comments or not? Because it sort of seems like you do, from what your saying.

    Hate mail and threats are always unacceptable and anybody that makes them should seek professional help. I would never defend such comments, and it is totally wrong of you to suggest that I would. Frankly the tone of your post and the anger if not hatred directed towards me isn't far from hate mail itself. It is almost as if you are trying to hurt me for expressing my view that there isn't enough 'hope' in current sci-fi.
    You have no ownership of the show, no rights to get what you want, nothing. Tough luck.

    Neither do you, your point was? You make it sound as if I didn't enjoy the episodes, but the fact is I did enjoy them and would hapily watch them again. That doesn't negate my point that there is an awfull lot of darkness and futility in modern sci-fi and not much portrayal of genuine hope of a better future.
    BTW, there was hope in COE - the children survived, Gwen has her baby to look forward to, Jack is off to sort his head out. It's just a quiet sort of hope. And probably a more realisitic kind at that.

    Well I doubt Jack is feeling particularly hopefull, precisely because not all of the children survived. Then again if with every two steps forward we take a step back, we are still going forward.

    I understand that some people may enjoy all the bitter-sweet pain, but that won't stop some of us hoping for the best. Hope will always exist, and try as some may, it will never be extinguished.

    As an example of true human nature in the face of darkness maybe you should consider the Blitz spirit. Despite facing almost certain defeat at that point in WWII and horrific losses amongst the civilian population, the British people pulled together and became stronger the more they were hurt. It is human nature to rise up and overcome the challenges that face us in the hopes of better days to come.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 11,991
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    korbany wrote: »
    I will watch what I want to watch, regardless of whether you think I should. I admit the show was bloody good drama, and yes I enjoyed it. My comments were not aimed just at the latest TW episodes but at current sci-fi in general. RTD can ofcourse write his drama in any way that he see's fit, I was simply pointing out a valid alternative.

    I did not say that he wrote it wrongly, but I do have the right to express my oppinion. Just because I have a different view to you does not mean that I have to be silent.


    Dark endings can work, if they make you think, just like light endings, but the thing is that we need both in order to achieve a sensible balance. So are you saying that SM wrote the ending of FOTD wrongly? Maybe you should take your own advice "If you don't like what SM has done with DW, then don't watch it." It's very simple.


    Hate mail and threats are always unacceptable and anybody that makes them should seek professional help. I would never defend such comments, and it is totally wrong of you to suggest that I would. Frankly the tone of your post and the anger if not hatred directed towards me isn't far from hate mail itself. It is almost as if you are trying to hurt me for expressing my view that there isn't enough 'hope' in current sci-fi.


    Neither do you, your point was? You make it sound as if I didn't enjoy the episodes, but the fact is I did enjoy them and would hapily watch them again. That doesn't negate my point that there is an awfull lot of darkness and futility in modern sci-fi and not much portrayal of genuine hope of a better future.


    Well I doubt Jack is feeling particularly hopefull, precisely because not all of the children survived. Then again if with every two steps forward we take a step back, we are still going forward.

    I understand that some people may enjoy all the bitter-sweet pain, but that won't stop some of us hoping for the best. Hope will always exist, and try as some may, it will never be extinguished.

    As an example of true human nature in the face of darkness maybe you should consider the Blitz spirit. Despite facing almost certain defeat at that point in WWII and horrific losses amongst the civilian population, the British people pulled together and became stronger the more they were hurt. It is human nature to rise up and overcome the challenges that face us in the hopes of better days to come.



    But as pointed out.....It's not just current Sci-Fi that tells us of Dystopia.....in fact a lot of the classic Sci-fi stories are bred from the war torn eras!....If anything, I do see some sort of hope in all of the modern sci-fi's where they have heros trying to egde on people to continue, and give people hope....like LOTTL, The Doctor was the people's last hope, they had to really believe that he could help them, and their voice, and mind is what brought the Doctor back from all despair, and in return he tried to help them, as well as the Master.....We also see belief in the human spirit in Gridlock too....even in COE, despite the pain that Jack went through, despite the horrific end to Frobisher and his family, despite the monsters that were the MPs.....there was still that so called Blitz spirit in Rhys, Gwen, and PC Andy, as well as those ordinary folk who faught the soldiers....as well as Jack and Ianto, who went to stand up to the 456...in the end the sacrifice that he had to make was so there could be peace, just like the soldiers did in the Wars....but as nearly every soldier has, the wounds remain forever....despite the peace.......
  • Muttley76Muttley76 Posts: 97,888
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    So I was just reading elsewhere that some of these cretins are planning on making a fool of themselves by standing up and chanting some noncense during the forthcoming Comic-Con thing. Well, hopefully it will bring home to them that they don't represent the masses, like they seem to think.
  • dgembadgembadgembadgemba Posts: 18,308
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    Muttley76 wrote: »
    So I was just reading elsewhere that some of these cretins are planning on making a fool of themselves by standing up and chanting some noncense during the forthcoming Comic-Con thing. Well, hopefully it will bring home to them that they don't represent the masses, like they seem to think.

    oh i would laugh if just a handful of them did it and the rest just looked at them as if to say "WTF" lol
  • Muttley76Muttley76 Posts: 97,888
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    oh i would laugh if just a handful of them did it and the rest just looked at them as if to say "WTF" lol

    ...and the reality is i figure that is what would happen. I'm actually amazed at how convinced they seem to be, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, that they are speaking on behlaf of all of us!:eek:
  • SystemSystem Posts: 2,096,970
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    I have just read this thread and am :eek::eek::eek: that some people have behaved this way!
    Yes I was happy/sad/shocked/laughing/numb/outraged etc etc but in my mind for a piece of fictional writing to stir up so many emotions and feelings thats bloody good writing and bloody good acting and I praise them.
    I'm shocked.
    And well done James Moran for not taking that cr*p. Excellent blog.
  • Maid MarianMaid Marian Posts: 113
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    Muttley76 wrote: »
    So I was just reading elsewhere that some of these cretins are planning on making a fool of themselves by standing up and chanting some noncense during the forthcoming Comic-Con thing. Well, hopefully it will bring home to them that they don't represent the masses, like they seem to think.

    There's a Facebook group called RIP Ianto and people who are going to the Comic-Con are being encouraged to do this as well - sorry, but it just made me laugh!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 11,991
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    Muttley76 wrote: »
    So I was just reading elsewhere that some of these cretins are planning on making a fool of themselves by standing up and chanting some noncense during the forthcoming Comic-Con thing. Well, hopefully it will bring home to them that they don't represent the masses, like they seem to think.
    There's a Facebook group called RIP Ianto and people who are going to the Comic-Con are being encouraged to do this as well - sorry, but it just made me laugh!

    Oh come on!!!!!!! Talk about really going over the top.....I really hope that the organisers have seen this and try to do what they can from spoiling it for RTD and Co, and those fans who genuinly want to go and just enjoy the comic con......
  • dgembadgembadgembadgemba Posts: 18,308
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    if anyone starts any sh!t at the signing on friday they will be getting a face full of dgem.....and not in a good way lol
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 11,991
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    if anyone starts any sh!t at the signing on friday they will be getting a face full of dgem.....and not in a good way lol

    :D....and deservedly so.....:D...Go Dgem!!!!!!
  • Muttley76Muttley76 Posts: 97,888
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    crazzyaz7 wrote: »
    Oh come on!!!!!!! Talk about really going over the top.....I really hope that the organisers have seen this and try to do what they can from spoiling it for RTD and Co, and those fans who genuinly want to go and just enjoy the comic con......

    i'm pretty confident that when push comes to shove nothing will happen, or if it does they will be drowned out by the majority of people there who will think that the lunatics have broken out of the asylam!
  • *Eileen**Eileen* Posts: 9,881
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    There's a Facebook group called RIP Ianto and people who are going to the Comic-Con are being encouraged to do this as well - sorry, but it just made me laugh!

    I'm tempted to join it just so I can post on the wall about how absolutely pathetic they are and how they don't speak for the majority of fans and should just grow up !!!
  • dgembadgembadgembadgemba Posts: 18,308
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    *Eileen* wrote: »
    I'm tempted to join it just so I can post on the wall about how absolutely pathetic they are and how they don't speak for the majority of fans and should just grow up !!!

    Thats exactly what i did and the administrators just deleted it. dont waste your breath
  • Muttley76Muttley76 Posts: 97,888
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    *Eileen* wrote: »
    I'm tempted to join it just so I can post on the wall about how absolutely pathetic they are and how they don't speak for the majority of fans and should just grow up !!!
    Thats exactly what i did and the administrators just deleted it. dont waste your breath

    Not much you can do when people refuse to see the truth, tbh.....maybe it's best to pity them, because there must be something very wrong with their lives to be acting out like this.
  • dgembadgembadgembadgemba Posts: 18,308
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    Muttley76 wrote: »
    Not much you can do when people refuse to see the truth, tbh.....maybe it's best to pity them, because there must be something very wrong with their lives to be acting out like this.

    I thought torchwood was an "adult" show - i must have been mistaken :rolleyes:
  • Muttley76Muttley76 Posts: 97,888
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    I thought torchwood was an "adult" show - i must have been mistaken :rolleyes:

    Well being adult in years is, sadly, no gaurentee for maturity or wisdom.;)


    I actually feel bad for people like you, that were actually big fans of Ianto but aren't acting like a nutcase, because a) there is a tendancy for some people to tar everyone with the same brush and b) because the people that are acting up pretty much see you as a 'traitor' to the cause! :eek::rolleyes:
  • dgembadgembadgembadgemba Posts: 18,308
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    Muttley76 wrote: »
    Well being adult in years is, sadly, no gaurentee for maturity or wisdom.;)


    I actually feel bad for people like you, that were actually big fans of Ianto but aren't acting like a nutcase, because a) there is a tendancy for some people to tar everyone with the same brush and b) because the people that are acting up pretty much see you as a 'traitor' to the cause! :eek::rolleyes:

    yep. i almost took my pics of Janto off my desk today because i dont want to be associated with them. But on the other hand i have fallen out with people that last week would have been classed as friends because, to put it mildly, they are frigging mental.
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