Well as there's two more books to go, so far unwritten, in that case, he's probably speeding things up for the TV series.
Actually I thought that the way it was done was rather crass and heavy handed, Cersei clearly had no inkling of anything much that had taken place on the journey, and suddenly she accuses Brienne of being in love with her brother. WTF? I'm going to have to go watch that bit again, I think I must have missed something.
That can be explained as Cersei's suspicious nature. Cersei's shrewder on the TV show than she is in the books, so I don't have a problem with her picking up on non-verbal communication.
It's the fact that there's anything there for her to pick up on that is the problem.
I've read all the available books, but while reading the 'who did it?' speculation in the tv thread, I realised that I'd forgotten who killed him. (I've now looked it up.) I suppose it matters that some people weren't involved, but I don't think it makes any significant difference beyond that.
It seems that way, and I really dislike the change. It would have been so much more original (for television), if a male and female character could have that kind of relationship without becoming explicitly romantic. I don't want Brienne to just end up as Jaime's love interest. >:(
Yes I agree, I think as the books progressed it seemed to me there was ever increasing admiration and respect in their relationship, and a genuine sense of shared pain and empathy for each other's situation which was starting to come through in semi- affectionate banter but I think it stopped short of romantic love. I saw it more as a true friendship or even ironically a brotherly/sisterly type thing. But I guess if Martin wrote the episode and wants to lead them down that path so be it...
Ps I also wondered about lack of Penny in the tableau...her storyline and that of Tyrion as her erstwhile protector for a bit has obviously been axed.
Ps I also wondered about lack of Penny in the tableau...her storyline and that of Tyrion as her erstwhile protector for a bit has obviously been axed.
I had mixed feelings about the Penny story in book five, so I'm not too sure if I really am disappointed about its possible exclusion or not.
I do wonder if they're going to delve into the dark side of Tyrion or chicken out. A few have complained about Tyrion being a bit too "heroic" compared to the books, so wonder who far the show will take him.
I thought the episode was pretty good overall, but I was disappointed at the Cersei and Brienne scene.
Even if Brienne did feel that way about Jaime (and she probably did to some extent), she would never let anyone know. When I was watching, I tried to remember if Brienne was even at the wedding. I can't remember what happened to her once Jaime was back in King's Landing.
Might read the books again from when Joffrey died. I'll miss the little sadist. When GOT started I didn't take to the actor at al, but Jack Gleeson made the role his own and his death scene was very well done.
I thought the episode was pretty good overall, but I was disappointed at the Cersei and Brienne scene.
Even if Brienne did feel that way about Jaime (and she probably did to some extent), she would never let anyone know. When I was watching, I tried to remember if Brienne was even at the wedding. I can't remember what happened to her once Jaime was back in King's Landing.
Might read the books again from when Joffrey died. I'll miss the little sadist. When GOT started I didn't take to the actor at al, but Jack Gleeson made the role his own and his death scene was very well done.
She wasn't, she and Jaime didn't get to Kings Landing until after the wedding
I thought the episode was pretty good overall, but I was disappointed at the Cersei and Brienne scene.
Even if Brienne did feel that way about Jaime (and she probably did to some extent), she would never let anyone know. When I was watching, I tried to remember if Brienne was even at the wedding. I can't remember what happened to her once Jaime was back in King's Landing.
Might read the books again from when Joffrey died. I'll miss the little sadist. When GOT started I didn't take to the actor at al, but Jack Gleeson made the role his own and his death scene was very well done.
I always got the impression from the books that they both 'noticed' each other in the bathing scene back at (harrenhall?).
I always got the impression from the books that they both 'noticed' each other in the bathing scene back at (harrenhall?).
I think they realised they were different sexes, but that was about it for me. I always felt they would be friends for life and always support each other in difficult times, but no more than that. Brienne would never think she was good enough for Jaime and Jaime would never be brave enough to choose someone like Brienne. None of this would ever be said out loud, but that would be their background. Just my thoughts of course.
I think they realised they were different sexes, but that was about it for me. I always felt they would be friends for life and always support each other in difficult times, but no more than that. Brienne would never think she was good enough for Jaime and Jaime would never be brave enough to choose someone like Brienne. None of this would ever be said out loud, but that would be their background. Just my thoughts of course.
I agree..friends for life sums it up for me. Although with GRRM a life in the Seven Kingdoms is often brief. I really want Jamie and Brienne to keep going a while longer though I love their story lines and I am rooting for more of Jaime's redemption before he dies a heroic death.
IIRC in the books LF went to Highgarden and 'brokered' the Marg/Joff wedding (as well as the Cersei/Loras one), but I can't remember if he did the same in the series?
It seems that way, and I really dislike the change. It would have been so much more original (for television), if a male and female character could have that kind of relationship without becoming explicitly romantic. I don't want Brienne to just end up as Jaime's love interest. >:(
It doesn't necessarily mean they're heading for the bedroom! Jaime's highly narcissic even if he appears more of a gentleman now. I think its more 'lingering glances from afar' on Briennes part. Though, in all honesty, it would be quite ORIGINAL to have a 6ft female warrior shacking up with a one handed man!
To me it seemed more like Brienne was embarrassed just for being asked such a question rather than that it had any validity.
I think this is part of Cersei distancing herself from Jaime. She blamed him for not being there during the siege and now she is accusing him of being with other women.
This has more to say about Cersei and her relationship with Jaime than it does about Brienne and Jaime.
IIRC in the books LF went to Highgarden and 'brokered' the Marg/Joff wedding (as well as the Cersei/Loras one), but I can't remember if he did the same in the series?
In the books LF was sent by Tyrion to Bitterbridge to broker the alliance there (there was no Cersei/Loras match in the books, at all; Tywin wanted Cersei to re-marry and offered several possibilities but favoured Loras and Margaery's brother Willas, who apparently doesn't exist in the TV show). In the TV show, Margaery and Loras returned to Highgarden so Littlefinger apparently traipsed down there to do the deed, even though this is a bit far-fetched geographically (and part of the 'Littlefinger teleporting around Westeros' meme from Season 2).
Cool Google Maps style guide to Westeros and the characters' various journeys.
It's a nice idea but their map is out-of-date, as it's from before the proper shape of Essos was shown on both the book and TV show maps (which are, just to be confusing, different to one another).
People have been speculating how Shae will die as her character is significantly different than in the book, but following The Lion and the Rose she could turn Tyrion's spurning could lead to her coming under Tywin's influence if she somehow managed to get off the boat after Bronn put her on it (which I believe he did).
However after re-watching for the umpteenth time, it was (almost) obvious that Penn was not at the Purple Wedding (Robb had too deep a voice, although Penny could too ) which left me thinking, if she does end up in Essos, with a little bit (hell of a lot) of re-working of the plot could Shae end up replacing Penny in Tyrion's Essos storyline. I hope not as I find dwarfs attractive and was looking forward to seeing her onscreen (played by Lisa Hammond or Meredith Eaton, who are both hot as hell)
There's a lot of discussion on other parts of the net that the sex scene between Jaime and Cersei was unequivocally rape, while the books were a bit more ambiguous, at least from Jaime's point of view. What do we think?
The relevant text from A Storm of Swords:
Cersei was kneeling before the altar of the Mother. Joffrey’s bier had been laid out beneath the Stranger, who led the newly dead to the other world. The smell of incense hung heavy in the air, and a hundred candles burned, sending up a hundred prayers. Joff’s like to need every one of them, too.
His sister looked over her shoulder. “Who?” she said, then, “Jaime?” She rose, her eyes brimming with tears. “Is it truly you?” She did not come to him, however. She has never come to me, he thought. She has always waited, letting me come to her. She gives, but I must ask. “You should have come sooner,” she murmured, when he took her in his arms. “Why couldn’t you have come sooner, to keep him safe? My boy . . .”
Our boy. “I came as fast I could.” He broke from the embrace, and stepped back a pace. “It’s war out there, Sister.”
“You look so thin. And your hair, your golden hair . . .”
“The hair will grow back.” Jaime lifted his stump. She needs to see. “This won’t.”
Her eyes went wide. “The Starks . . .”
“No. This was Vargo Hoat’s work.”
The name meant nothing to her. “Who?”
“The Goat of Harrenhal. For a little while.”
Cersei turned to gaze at Joffrey’s bier. They had dressed the dead king in gilded armor, eerily similar to Jaime’s own. The visor of the helm was closed, but the candles reflected softly off the gold, so the boy shimmered bright and brave in death. The candlelight woke fires in the rubies that decorated the bodice of Cersei’s mourning dress as well. Her hair fell to her shoulders, undressed and unkempt. “He killed him, Jaime. Just as he’d warned me. One day when I thought myself safe and happy he would turn my joy to ashes in my mouth, he said.”
“Tyrion said that?” Jaime had not wanted to believe it. Kinslaying was worse than kingslaying, in the eyes of gods and men. He knew the boy was mine. I loved Tyrion. I was good to him. Well, but for that one time . . . but the Imp did not know the truth of that. Or did he? “Why would he kill Joff?”
“For a ****.” She clutched his good hand and held it tight in hers. “He told me he was going to do it. Joff knew. As he was dying, he pointed at his murderer. At our twisted little monster of a brother.” She kissed Jaime’s fingers. “You’ll kill him for me, won’t you? You’ll avenge our son.”
Jaime pulled away. “He is still my brother.” He shoved his stump at her face, in case she failed to see it. “And I am in no fit state to be killing anyone.”
“You have another hand, don’t you? I am not asking you to best the Hound in battle. Tyrion is a dwarf, locked in a cell. The guards would stand aside for you.”
The thought turned his stomach. “I must know more of this. Of how it happened.”
“You shall,” Cersei promised. “There’s to be a trial. When you hear all he did, you’ll want him dead as much as I do.” She touched his face. “I was lost without you, Jaime. I was afraid the Starks would send me your head. I could not have borne that.” She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her. “I am not whole without you.”
There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons . . .”
“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.
“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.
But no sooner were they done than the queen said, “Let me up. If we are discovered like this . . .”
Reluctantly he rolled away and helped her off the altar. The pale marble was smeared with blood. Jaime wiped it clean with his sleeve, then bent to pick up the candles he had knocked over. Fortunately they had all gone out when they fell. If the sept had caught fire I might never have noticed.
“This was folly.” Cersei pulled her gown straight. “With Father in the castle . . . Jaime, we must be careful.”
“I am sick of being careful. The Targaryens wed brother to sister, why shouldn’t we do the same? Marry me, Cersei. Stand up before the realm and say it’s me you want. We’ll have our own wedding feast, and make another son in place of Joffrey.”
She drew back. “That’s not funny.”
“Do you hear me chuckling?”
“Did you leave your wits at Riverrun?” Her voice had an edge to it. “Tommen’s throne derives from Robert, you know that.”
“He’ll have Casterly Rock, isn’t that enough? Let Father sit the throne. All I want is you.” He made to touch her cheek. Old habits die hard, and it was his right arm he lifted.
Cersei recoiled from his stump. “Don’t . . . don’t talk like this. You’re scaring me, Jaime. Don’t be stupid. One wrong word and you’ll cost us everything. What did they do to you?”
“They cut off my hand.”
“No, it’s more, you’re changed.” She backed off a step. “We’ll talk later. On the morrow. I have Sansa Stark’s maids in a tower cell, I need to question them . . . you should go to Father.”
“I crossed a thousand leagues to come to you, and lost the best part of me along the way. Don’t tell me to leave.”
“Leave me,” she repeated, turning away.
Jaime laced up his breeches and did as she commanded. Weary as he was, he could not seek a bed. By now his lord father knew that he was back in the city.
i have not read this thread as i have not read the books. but i want to. There are so many printing though I'm not sure of the order...could someone if they get 5 mins PM me a list of the books in order? also some of the sets have 4/5/6/7 books...iguess my next question of how many are there will be answered by the the list... thank you in advance.
I believe others online are saying he said Orys the First (using subtitles to clarify). Some of the more avid book readers are up in arms because it doesn't tie into the back story of any King they have read about.
I genuinely don't know how you can all remember some characters. I must have read the books too quickly because I only just remember the fate of the main characters, let alone names and back stories of others. Like, someone was talking about Brienne's long travelogue. I must have blanked half of it out because I don't remember it being particularly long or tiresome.
Another poster in the other thread talked about how happy they were to see Dolorous Edd & Grenn. I don't remember much of them from the books, let alone knowing who they are on the tv show!
Re: the sept scene. It definitely starts a bit non consensual (albeit "weakly") in the book but Cersei's lust takes over...if this is what they were aiming to portray on screen then they failed. She says no the whole time. I don't really get why they changed this?!
I believe others online are saying he said Orys the First (using subtitles to clarify). Some of the more avid book readers are up in arms because it doesn't tie into the back story of any King they have read about.
I genuinely don't know how you can all remember some characters. I must have read the books too quickly because I only just remember the fate of the main characters, let alone names and back stories of others. Like, someone was talking about Brienne's long travelogue. I must have blanked half of it out because I don't remember it being particularly long or tiresome.
Another poster in the other thread talked about how happy they were to see Dolorous Edd & Grenn. I don't remember much of them from the books, let alone knowing who they are on the tv show!
Re: the sept scene. It definitely starts a bit non consensual (albeit "weakly") in the book but Cersei's lust takes over...if this is what they were aiming to portray on screen then they failed. She says no the whole time. I don't really get why they changed this?!
That would be Orys Baratheon - some people should read the appendix more carefully before they get all hoity toity I think he was the first Baratheon king, who started the Baratheon dynasty way before the Targs subdued them all. EDIT: maybe Tywin included him to emphasise Tommen's 'Baratheon' heritage?
As for Jaime and Cersei - this is why I think the tv series is little more than nonsense half the time
I am so annoyed at the poor characterisation in that episode.
Not only with Jaime, but also with the Hound and Ygritte (plus the wildlings in general). It's incredibly inconsistent from a development standpoint.
I hate how generically 'bad' the Thenns are, and how they're throwing the Free Folk in with them. Of course, they're not perfect and I would expect some raiding, but the reason I loved the Battle of Castle Black in the books was that I wasn't sure who to support. I could understand what the Night's Watch were fighting for, but I could also understand what the wildlings were fighting for, and they were both legitimate causes. Now it appears they're going for "all wildlings are evil and deserve to die this winter". It also undermines pretty much everything Jon does in ADWD.
I am so annoyed at the poor characterisation in that episode.
Not only with Jaime, but also with the Hound and Ygritte (plus the wildlings in general). It's incredibly inconsistent from a development standpoint.
I hate how generically 'bad' the Thenns are, and how they're throwing the Free Folk in with them. Of course, they're not perfect and I would expect some raiding, but the reason I loved the Battle of Castle Black in the books was that I wasn't sure who to support. I could understand what the Night's Watch were fighting for, but I could also understand what the wildlings were fighting for, and they were both legitimate causes. Now it appears they're going for "all wildlings are evil and deserve to die this winter". It also undermines pretty much everything Jon does in ADWD.
I fully agree. It's one step forward, two steps back in terms of characterisation. There's no consistency in terms of behaviour.
The Thenns are so cartoonishly evil they may as well be orcs.
Comments
That can be explained as Cersei's suspicious nature. Cersei's shrewder on the TV show than she is in the books, so I don't have a problem with her picking up on non-verbal communication.
It's the fact that there's anything there for her to pick up on that is the problem.
I've read all the available books, but while reading the 'who did it?' speculation in the tv thread, I realised that I'd forgotten who killed him. (I've now looked it up.) I suppose it matters that some people weren't involved, but I don't think it makes any significant difference beyond that.
The Little Person playing Robb Stark didn't show their face (I think) so that could be Penny (even if it was a male actor playing the part this time).
Or they may just have Penny say her Brother was one of the performers.
That's of course if Penny makes it onto the show, I don't think she will.
Well it shows the reader that Littlefinger is playing a far bigger game than those around him think.
Yes I agree, I think as the books progressed it seemed to me there was ever increasing admiration and respect in their relationship, and a genuine sense of shared pain and empathy for each other's situation which was starting to come through in semi- affectionate banter but I think it stopped short of romantic love. I saw it more as a true friendship or even ironically a brotherly/sisterly type thing. But I guess if Martin wrote the episode and wants to lead them down that path so be it...
Ps I also wondered about lack of Penny in the tableau...her storyline and that of Tyrion as her erstwhile protector for a bit has obviously been axed.
I had mixed feelings about the Penny story in book five, so I'm not too sure if I really am disappointed about its possible exclusion or not.
I do wonder if they're going to delve into the dark side of Tyrion or chicken out. A few have complained about Tyrion being a bit too "heroic" compared to the books, so wonder who far the show will take him.
Even if Brienne did feel that way about Jaime (and she probably did to some extent), she would never let anyone know. When I was watching, I tried to remember if Brienne was even at the wedding. I can't remember what happened to her once Jaime was back in King's Landing.
Might read the books again from when Joffrey died. I'll miss the little sadist. When GOT started I didn't take to the actor at al, but Jack Gleeson made the role his own and his death scene was very well done.
She wasn't, she and Jaime didn't get to Kings Landing until after the wedding
I always got the impression from the books that they both 'noticed' each other in the bathing scene back at (harrenhall?).
Thanks - thought I was going mad!
I think they realised they were different sexes, but that was about it for me. I always felt they would be friends for life and always support each other in difficult times, but no more than that. Brienne would never think she was good enough for Jaime and Jaime would never be brave enough to choose someone like Brienne. None of this would ever be said out loud, but that would be their background. Just my thoughts of course.
I agree..friends for life sums it up for me. Although with GRRM a life in the Seven Kingdoms is often brief. I really want Jamie and Brienne to keep going a while longer though I love their story lines and I am rooting for more of Jaime's redemption before he dies a heroic death.
http://quartermaester.info/
It doesn't necessarily mean they're heading for the bedroom! Jaime's highly narcissic even if he appears more of a gentleman now. I think its more 'lingering glances from afar' on Briennes part. Though, in all honesty, it would be quite ORIGINAL to have a 6ft female warrior shacking up with a one handed man!
I think this is part of Cersei distancing herself from Jaime. She blamed him for not being there during the siege and now she is accusing him of being with other women.
This has more to say about Cersei and her relationship with Jaime than it does about Brienne and Jaime.
In the books LF was sent by Tyrion to Bitterbridge to broker the alliance there (there was no Cersei/Loras match in the books, at all; Tywin wanted Cersei to re-marry and offered several possibilities but favoured Loras and Margaery's brother Willas, who apparently doesn't exist in the TV show). In the TV show, Margaery and Loras returned to Highgarden so Littlefinger apparently traipsed down there to do the deed, even though this is a bit far-fetched geographically (and part of the 'Littlefinger teleporting around Westeros' meme from Season 2).
It's a nice idea but their map is out-of-date, as it's from before the proper shape of Essos was shown on both the book and TV show maps (which are, just to be confusing, different to one another).
However after re-watching for the umpteenth time, it was (almost) obvious that Penn was not at the Purple Wedding (Robb had too deep a voice, although Penny could too
The relevant text from A Storm of Swords:
Couldn't make it out and was wondering if it was a Targ King from the book or just a made up (for the show) name.
I genuinely don't know how you can all remember some characters. I must have read the books too quickly because I only just remember the fate of the main characters, let alone names and back stories of others. Like, someone was talking about Brienne's long travelogue. I must have blanked half of it out because I don't remember it being particularly long or tiresome.
Another poster in the other thread talked about how happy they were to see Dolorous Edd & Grenn. I don't remember much of them from the books, let alone knowing who they are on the tv show!
Re: the sept scene. It definitely starts a bit non consensual (albeit "weakly") in the book but Cersei's lust takes over...if this is what they were aiming to portray on screen then they failed. She says no the whole time. I don't really get why they changed this?!
That would be Orys Baratheon - some people should read the appendix more carefully before they get all hoity toity
As for Jaime and Cersei - this is why I think the tv series is little more than nonsense half the time
Not only with Jaime, but also with the Hound and Ygritte (plus the wildlings in general). It's incredibly inconsistent from a development standpoint.
I hate how generically 'bad' the Thenns are, and how they're throwing the Free Folk in with them. Of course, they're not perfect and I would expect some raiding, but the reason I loved the Battle of Castle Black in the books was that I wasn't sure who to support. I could understand what the Night's Watch were fighting for, but I could also understand what the wildlings were fighting for, and they were both legitimate causes. Now it appears they're going for "all wildlings are evil and deserve to die this winter". It also undermines pretty much everything Jon does in ADWD.
I fully agree. It's one step forward, two steps back in terms of characterisation. There's no consistency in terms of behaviour.
The Thenns are so cartoonishly evil they may as well be orcs.