But is he? Ten started regenerating but he never actually transformed. Ten post regeneration for me was the 11'th Doctor, 10th regeneration and 10th incarnation because he was in every respect the same person.
He's the 13th doctor but what number incarnation is he?
He's post 12th regeneration, 12th incarnation but only 11th of those to who call themselves The Doctor. The sticky bit is if you view Tennant as being one or two incarnations. Easiest is to accept he's one Doctor (the 10th to go by that name) but post 10th and 11th regenerations.
That's assuming that you go by the theory that the explosive release of regenergy associated with the current series as being what constitutes a regeneration.
I don't see what the problem is. We see Doctor no 8 ( McGann) regenerate into Doctor no 9 (Hurt) at the end of The Night of The Doctor, then at the end of the Name of The Doctor, we see Doctor no 9 regenerate into Doctor no 10 (Ecclestone) who we see regenerate into Doctor no 11 (Tennant) at the end of Parting of the ways. He then starts to regenerate in the Stolen Earth but stops the regeneration after his body is repaired/healed. Doctor 11 then regenerates into Doctor no 12 (Smith) at the end of The End of time and he will apparently regenerate into Doctor no 13 (Capaldi) sometime during the Christmas Special.
Whats the problem ? All Moffatt appears to have done is insert a new Doctor (Hurt) inbetween McGann and Ecclestone thus moving the numbers along one. Theres no Valyard (god how I hate that name and character)involved and no "extra" regeneration to make Smith no 13. People should know by now to pay no attention to what Moffatt says, he lies and admits that he lies. Just accept the simplest explaination and enjoy.
P.S.
I have no doubt that the newly rediscovered Timelords will bestow a new series of regenerations on the Doctor when it is needed.
I don't see what the problem is. We see Doctor no 8 ( McGann) regenerate into Doctor no 9 (Hurt) at the end of The Night of The Doctor, then at the end of the Name of The Doctor, we see Doctor no 9 regenerate into Doctor no 10 (Ecclestone) who we see regenerate into Doctor no 11 (Tennant) at the end of Parting of the ways. He then starts to regenerate in the Stolen Earth but stops the regeneration after his body is repaired/healed. Doctor 11 then regenerates into Doctor no 12 (Smith) at the end of The End of time and he will apparently regenerate into Doctor no 13 (Capaldi) sometime during the Christmas Special.
Whats the problem ? All Moffatt appears to have done is insert a new Doctor (Hurt) inbetween McGann and Ecclestone thus moving the numbers along one. Theres no Valyard (god how I hate that name and character)involved and no "extra" regeneration to make Smith no 13. People should know by now to pay no attention to what Moffatt says, he lies and admits that he lies. Just accept the simplest explaination and enjoy.
P.S. I have no doubt that the newly rediscovered Timelords will bestow a new series of regenerations on the Doctor when it is needed.
With the added benefit that the intervention of the Council seems to allow a Timelord to choose his appearance (Troughton was offered this choice.) This would also explain the Caretaker's words about revisiting old faces, and could be another way to explan why the latest incarnation looks like Lucius.
But is he? Ten started regenerating but he never actually transformed. Ten post regeneration for me was the 11'th Doctor, 10th regeneration and 10th incarnation because he was in every respect the same person.
If you have 12 bottles of beer (aka Regenerations) and drink 11 of them but pour the 12th down the sink you can't claim to have 1 bottle of beer left.
If Time Lords can avoid death by starting then aborting a regeneration (to be used later) then why don't they all do it?
They would never have to regenerate.
Timelord: Oh I've been fatally wounded, never mind I'll just start regenerating till I'm healed and then abort the process and send the extra energy into this bag of toenail clippings I keep for just such an emergency. No need to actually use up one of my limited regenerations.
Answer: Because it obviously still counts as a Regeneration.
Answer: Because it obviously still counts as a Regeneration.
I think it counts as a regeneration (in fact, Moffat has confirmed it) but I don't think it counts as an incarnation. The point was he deliberately diverted the energy so as not to create a new incarnation.
It's worth bearing in mind that this is a ressurrected post from before Day of the Doctor (and Night of the Doctor). The OP was speculation which turned out to be largely correct (although, I disagree with the number of incarnations suggested - see above).
OK, I'm a newbie here in the sense that I have rarely posted to this forum. But I'm a Who fan since I was a kid, I grew up in the Colin Baker and then McCoy days, passed the void years reading books and have loved the NuWho, even though sometimes it takes two or more watches to realise that the Moffats stories are quite good! So anyway, I've never watched 'The Deadly Assasin' or other classic episodes which talk about Regeneration.
I always understood that a timelords' life was limited by the regeneration limit (not necessarily a look/appearance limit). i.e. its not unreasonable that: while a timelord is (by default) restricted by 12 regenerations that they are not necessarily restricted to have 13 different faces (i.e. Peter Pratt was a decayed master at the end of his regeneration limit - yet all known previous faces of the master were the same (Delgado) - and this is a trend continued in Anthony Ainsleys days). Using the master again its clear that the 12 regeneration limit can be surpassed, but if left unaltered the default norm for a timelord is 12 regenerations only.
I agree - Tennant did use up a full regeneration, its just he didn't use all of it on himself, just the healing part. So with that in mind, putting regenerations at the heart rather than incarnations, doesn't that mean the doctor has used his regenerations:
01 - Hartnell to Troughton
02 - Troughton to Pertwee
03 - Pertwee to Baker
04 - Baker to Davison
05 - Davison to Baker
06 - Baker to McCoy
07 - McCoy to McGann
08 - McGann to Hurt
09 - Hurt to Eccleston
10 - Eccleston to Tennant
11 - Tennant to Tennant
12 - Tennant to Smith
Again - this is only my own opinion. If the above is how Moffat wants to write the life of the Doctor, then does the "fall of the eleventh" refer to Tenant or Smith? Was it Smith or Tennants TARDIS at Trenzalore? Does this tie in somehow to the exploding TARDIS which I don't has yet been completely explained yet seems to be the reason for (amys') cracks and indeed smiths complete story arc.
Also - on a completely separate note, if they do decide to introduce the Valeyard Character, wouldn't he have happened somwehere between Tennant to Smith.
Finally - Melody didn't give Smith any new regnerations - she just used all her remaining ones up.
I always understood that a timelords' life was limited by the regeneration limit (not necessarily a look/appearance limit)...I agree - Tennant did use up a full regeneration, its just he didn't use all of it on himself, just the healing part. So with that in mind, putting regenerations at the heart rather than incarnations, doesn't that mean the doctor has used his regenerations:
01 - Hartnell to Troughton
02 - Troughton to Pertwee
03 - Pertwee to Baker
04 - Baker to Davison
05 - Davison to Baker
06 - Baker to McCoy
07 - McCoy to McGann
08 - McGann to Hurt
09 - Hurt to Eccleston
10 - Eccleston to Tennant
11 - Tennant to Tennant
12 - Tennant to Smith
Again - this is only my own opinion. If the above is how Moffat wants to write the life of the Doctor, then does the "fall of the eleventh" refer to Tenant or Smith?
It's not just your opinion, Moffat has pretty much confirmed it. The fall of the 11th refers to Matt Smith's Doctor because it's been established that Hurt was never called "the Doctor" so he doesn't count in the numbering even though he counts as a regeneration.
Also - on a completely separate note, if they do decide to introduce the Valeyard Character, wouldn't he have happened somwehere between Tennant to Smith.
Yes, but he was never an actual Doctor. He was just a metaphysical concept given form by the Time Lords out of the darker aspects of the Doctor's psyche in the future and promised the rest of the Doctor's regenerations to give him a proper existence if he successfully prosecuted the Doctor.
As such, he actually appeared at the time of the 6th Doctor and may or may not have faded out of existence by now.
Again - this is only my own opinion. If the above is how Moffat wants to write the life of the Doctor, then does the "fall of the eleventh" refer to Tenant or Smith? Was it Smith or Tennants TARDIS at Trenzalore?
........
Also - on a completely separate note, if they do decide to introduce the Valeyard Character, wouldn't he have happened somwehere between Tennant to Smith.
Finally - Melody didn't give Smith any new regnerations - she just used all her remaining ones up.
Smiths is the 11th unique incarnation to go by the name Doctor. Dead Tardis was his.
If the Doctor lies why trust the Master or, for that matter, that the Valeyard told the truth.
The latter isn't of the menu until we're told so. However forcing the Doctor to give someone his remaining regenerations has been a recurring theme.
It's not just your opinion, Moffat has pretty much confirmed it. The fall of the 11th refers to Matt Smith's Doctor because it's been established that Hurt was never called "the Doctor" so he doesn't count in the numbering even though he counts as a regeneration.
Yes, but he was never an actual Doctor. He was just a metaphysical concept given form by the Time Lords out of the darker aspects of the Doctor's psyche in the future and promised the rest of the Doctor's regenerations to give him a proper existence if he successfully prosecuted the Doctor.
As such, he actually appeared at the time of the 6th Doctor and may or may not have faded out of existence by now.
Thanks Thrombin In my previous life of just reading posts and not actually posting here, I was always impressed with your answers once again you've cleared up a few of my grey areas .... However one small moment of pedanticness: I believe Hurt earned the right to be called the Doctor right at the end of DOTD? ANYWAY, I'm sure it's a moot point, bring on the xmas episode, we all need some answers ...
However one small moment of pedanticness: I believe Hurt earned the right to be called the Doctor right at the end of DOTD?
At the same time the later Doctors said they wouldn't remember that fact so 10 would never know he was anything else and until it'd all been resolved neither would 11.
I'd say that one point in all of this is that Hurt's incarnation that showed he was still the Doctor is his choice of weapon. I'd like to think that if Liz Sladen had been available then she would have been the voice of the Moment. Regardless of which even when he was prepared to use that weapon he was still hoping he'd be talked out of it.
Thanks Thrombin In my previous life of just reading posts and not actually posting here, I was always impressed with your answers once again you've cleared up a few of my grey areas ....
Thanks
However one small moment of pedanticness: I believe Hurt earned the right to be called the Doctor right at the end of DOTD?
While he earned the right to be called the Doctor he never actually called himself that (even from the start he was deliberately created as a warrior rather than a doctor).
Stephan Moffat has said that he went to great lengths to ensure that we didn't have to renumber the Doctors. He didn't want the confusion that that would cause.
Midn you, as this thread proves, it didn't stop people being confused
While he earned the right to be called the Doctor he never actually called himself that (even from the start he was deliberately created as a warrior rather than a doctor).
Stephan Moffat has said that he went to great lengths to ensure that we didn't have to renumber the Doctors. He didn't want the confusion that that would cause.
Midn you, as this thread proves, it didn't stop people being confused
I would say that it has had the exact opposite effect! The Doctors have had to be renumbered becasue of the John Hurt incarnation, he is a Doctor even if Moffatt doesn't want to call him by that name
I would say that it has had the exact opposite effect! The Doctors have had to be renumbered becasue of the John Hurt incarnation, he is a Doctor even if Moffatt doesn't want to call him by that name
They haven't had to be renumbered for reasons already explained in this thread. If the writer and showrunner says they don't need to be renumbered then anyone insisting on renumbering them is unncessarily adding to the confusion
They haven't had to be renumbered for reasons already explained in this thread. If the writer and showrunner says they don't need to be renumbered then anyone insisting on renumbering them is unncessarily adding to the confusion
And if they wrote it in such a way that the man himself doesn't consider himself to be The Doctor*, then you can't really argue with him - he is, after all, the highest authority on his own details...
*This was clearly explained as being the case - he didn't remember anything that had happened, therefore would still consider himself a genocidal War Doctor, thereby not taking anything away from the Doctor's motivations for the last few years...
Surely the argument is not just about the name "Doctor" I think we are all agreed that the Hurt incarnation is the same person as McGann and Ecclestone who are both called The Doctor. So choosing not to call himself by that name is a matter of choice. But he is still one of "the" Doctors thus making Ecclestones incarnation move from 9 to 10, 10 to 11 and 11 to 12. Anyway, wasn't there a line in the episode when as all the Tardises are gathering Hurt does in fact refer to himself as The Doctor, or have I imagined it. As an aside, If he didn't call himself Doctor I wonder what name he did use for all those years ?
Surely the argument is not just about the name "Doctor" I think we are all agreed that the Hurt incarnation is the same person as McGann and Ecclestone who are both called The Doctor. So choosing not to call himself by that name is a matter of choice. But he is still one of "the" Doctors thus making Ecclestones incarnation move from 9 to 10, 10 to 11 and 11 to 12. Anyway, wasn't there a line in the episode when as all the Tardises are gathering Hurt does in fact refer to himself as The Doctor, or have I imagined it. As an aside, If he didn't call himself Doctor I wonder what name he did use for all those years ?
But it is all about the name "Doctor". That is the conceit that Moffat used to prevent any need for renumbering. Because he didn't take the name "Doctor" he doesn't count when numbering the Doctors. He had a different name and so doesn't affect the numbering.
In night of the Doctor, the eighth Doctor said that the times required a different type of regeneration, one that wasn't a Doctor but was, instead, a Warrior. I took from that that this is what he would call himself: "the Warrior".
But it is all about the name "Doctor". That is the conceit that Moffat used to prevent any need for renumbering. Because he didn't take the name "Doctor" he doesn't count when numbering the Doctors. He had a different name and so doesn't affect the numbering.
In night of the Doctor, the eighth Doctor said that the times required a different type of regeneration, one that wasn't a Doctor but was, instead, a Warrior. I took from that that this is what he would call himself: "the Warrior".
+1. I agree with you. Hurt is the same Time Lord as The Doctor, but not, by his own admission, by the way in which he was created and by his moniker, The Doctor. He does not count as a Doctor, but he (probably, I don't know if the potion had its own regeneration energy built in or if The Doctor used one of his own) counts as a regeneration. This has the interesting effect of synchronizing the numbers: Matt Smith is the 11th Doctor because of the 11 regeneration.
I also agree that one of the main reasons for having saved and hopefully searching for and finding Gallifrey is not only to have that wonderful place and more Time Lords back, but also to give The Doctor another set of 12 regenerations. In fact, Capaldi could spend a good bit of his time searching for Gallifrey in order to achieve that very end once he realizes that he is the has no more regenerations remaining. That could be a wonderful year or multi-year story arc.
Comments
*sobs* I'm so proud...
Everyone who wrote me off my theory, simply dismissing it out of hand - please now form an orderly queue.
I am ready to graciously accept your apologies. FACT!!! :cool:
He's the 13th doctor but what number incarnation is he?
It's been on the Radio Times website for 2 weeks.
But is he? Ten started regenerating but he never actually transformed. Ten post regeneration for me was the 11'th Doctor, 10th regeneration and 10th incarnation because he was in every respect the same person.
He's post 12th regeneration, 12th incarnation but only 11th of those to who call themselves The Doctor. The sticky bit is if you view Tennant as being one or two incarnations. Easiest is to accept he's one Doctor (the 10th to go by that name) but post 10th and 11th regenerations.
That's assuming that you go by the theory that the explosive release of regenergy associated with the current series as being what constitutes a regeneration.
Whats the problem ? All Moffatt appears to have done is insert a new Doctor (Hurt) inbetween McGann and Ecclestone thus moving the numbers along one. Theres no Valyard (god how I hate that name and character)involved and no "extra" regeneration to make Smith no 13. People should know by now to pay no attention to what Moffatt says, he lies and admits that he lies. Just accept the simplest explaination and enjoy.
P.S.
I have no doubt that the newly rediscovered Timelords will bestow a new series of regenerations on the Doctor when it is needed.
With the added benefit that the intervention of the Council seems to allow a Timelord to choose his appearance (Troughton was offered this choice.) This would also explain the Caretaker's words about revisiting old faces, and could be another way to explan why the latest incarnation looks like Lucius.
If you have 12 bottles of beer (aka Regenerations) and drink 11 of them but pour the 12th down the sink you can't claim to have 1 bottle of beer left.
If Time Lords can avoid death by starting then aborting a regeneration (to be used later) then why don't they all do it?
They would never have to regenerate.
Timelord: Oh I've been fatally wounded, never mind I'll just start regenerating till I'm healed and then abort the process and send the extra energy into this bag of toenail clippings I keep for just such an emergency. No need to actually use up one of my limited regenerations.
Answer: Because it obviously still counts as a Regeneration.
I think it counts as a regeneration (in fact, Moffat has confirmed it) but I don't think it counts as an incarnation. The point was he deliberately diverted the energy so as not to create a new incarnation.
It's worth bearing in mind that this is a ressurrected post from before Day of the Doctor (and Night of the Doctor). The OP was speculation which turned out to be largely correct (although, I disagree with the number of incarnations suggested - see above).
I always understood that a timelords' life was limited by the regeneration limit (not necessarily a look/appearance limit). i.e. its not unreasonable that: while a timelord is (by default) restricted by 12 regenerations that they are not necessarily restricted to have 13 different faces (i.e. Peter Pratt was a decayed master at the end of his regeneration limit - yet all known previous faces of the master were the same (Delgado) - and this is a trend continued in Anthony Ainsleys days). Using the master again its clear that the 12 regeneration limit can be surpassed, but if left unaltered the default norm for a timelord is 12 regenerations only.
I agree - Tennant did use up a full regeneration, its just he didn't use all of it on himself, just the healing part. So with that in mind, putting regenerations at the heart rather than incarnations, doesn't that mean the doctor has used his regenerations:
01 - Hartnell to Troughton
02 - Troughton to Pertwee
03 - Pertwee to Baker
04 - Baker to Davison
05 - Davison to Baker
06 - Baker to McCoy
07 - McCoy to McGann
08 - McGann to Hurt
09 - Hurt to Eccleston
10 - Eccleston to Tennant
11 - Tennant to Tennant
12 - Tennant to Smith
Again - this is only my own opinion. If the above is how Moffat wants to write the life of the Doctor, then does the "fall of the eleventh" refer to Tenant or Smith? Was it Smith or Tennants TARDIS at Trenzalore? Does this tie in somehow to the exploding TARDIS which I don't has yet been completely explained yet seems to be the reason for (amys') cracks and indeed smiths complete story arc.
Also - on a completely separate note, if they do decide to introduce the Valeyard Character, wouldn't he have happened somwehere between Tennant to Smith.
Finally - Melody didn't give Smith any new regnerations - she just used all her remaining ones up.
It's not just your opinion, Moffat has pretty much confirmed it. The fall of the 11th refers to Matt Smith's Doctor because it's been established that Hurt was never called "the Doctor" so he doesn't count in the numbering even though he counts as a regeneration.
Yes, but he was never an actual Doctor. He was just a metaphysical concept given form by the Time Lords out of the darker aspects of the Doctor's psyche in the future and promised the rest of the Doctor's regenerations to give him a proper existence if he successfully prosecuted the Doctor.
As such, he actually appeared at the time of the 6th Doctor and may or may not have faded out of existence by now.
Smiths is the 11th unique incarnation to go by the name Doctor. Dead Tardis was his.
If the Doctor lies why trust the Master or, for that matter, that the Valeyard told the truth.
The latter isn't of the menu until we're told so. However forcing the Doctor to give someone his remaining regenerations has been a recurring theme.
Thanks Thrombin
At the same time the later Doctors said they wouldn't remember that fact so 10 would never know he was anything else and until it'd all been resolved neither would 11.
I'd say that one point in all of this is that Hurt's incarnation that showed he was still the Doctor is his choice of weapon. I'd like to think that if Liz Sladen had been available then she would have been the voice of the Moment. Regardless of which even when he was prepared to use that weapon he was still hoping he'd be talked out of it.
Thanks
While he earned the right to be called the Doctor he never actually called himself that (even from the start he was deliberately created as a warrior rather than a doctor).
Stephan Moffat has said that he went to great lengths to ensure that we didn't have to renumber the Doctors. He didn't want the confusion that that would cause.
Midn you, as this thread proves, it didn't stop people being confused
I would say that it has had the exact opposite effect! The Doctors have had to be renumbered becasue of the John Hurt incarnation, he is a Doctor even if Moffatt doesn't want to call him by that name
They haven't had to be renumbered for reasons already explained in this thread. If the writer and showrunner says they don't need to be renumbered then anyone insisting on renumbering them is unncessarily adding to the confusion
And if they wrote it in such a way that the man himself doesn't consider himself to be The Doctor*, then you can't really argue with him - he is, after all, the highest authority on his own details...
*This was clearly explained as being the case - he didn't remember anything that had happened, therefore would still consider himself a genocidal War Doctor, thereby not taking anything away from the Doctor's motivations for the last few years...
But it is all about the name "Doctor". That is the conceit that Moffat used to prevent any need for renumbering. Because he didn't take the name "Doctor" he doesn't count when numbering the Doctors. He had a different name and so doesn't affect the numbering.
In night of the Doctor, the eighth Doctor said that the times required a different type of regeneration, one that wasn't a Doctor but was, instead, a Warrior. I took from that that this is what he would call himself: "the Warrior".
http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/moffat-the-doctor-numbering-stays-exactly-the-same-55354.htm
+1. I agree with you. Hurt is the same Time Lord as The Doctor, but not, by his own admission, by the way in which he was created and by his moniker, The Doctor. He does not count as a Doctor, but he (probably, I don't know if the potion had its own regeneration energy built in or if The Doctor used one of his own) counts as a regeneration. This has the interesting effect of synchronizing the numbers: Matt Smith is the 11th Doctor because of the 11 regeneration.
I also agree that one of the main reasons for having saved and hopefully searching for and finding Gallifrey is not only to have that wonderful place and more Time Lords back, but also to give The Doctor another set of 12 regenerations. In fact, Capaldi could spend a good bit of his time searching for Gallifrey in order to achieve that very end once he realizes that he is the has no more regenerations remaining. That could be a wonderful year or multi-year story arc.
"No! All 13!" [cut to capaldi's face]
Ergo: Capaldi = 13th doctor.