Absolute 80s drops DAB bitrate

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  • 446.09375446.09375 Posts: 961
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    And the same goes with DAB. It can sound superb with higher bit rates. So why are you blaming the technology here?
    Because DAB is fundamentally flawed being a multiplex system, sharing a bitstream with other stations. It's inevitable that sound quality will be sacrificed for quantity of services by people who value that more than quality. So, although it may be capable of good sound, it's never going to happen in reality because of human nature being what it is.
    At least with FM, the way people mess it up is usually less objectionable, and being a single service per RF carrier there's no incentive to deliberately foul up the quality.

    We would have been better off with a single service per carrier system; something like a VHF quality version of DRM.
    Also FM radio is poor on the move. It often drops in to Mono.
    That's an RF coverage area issue. What's worse, temporary hiss and mono, or 'boiling mud' and drop-outs? I prefer graceful degredation, at least you know what's happening and don't get any jarring sudden surprises.

    I've never heard any friends or family complain about radio quality on FM (or AM for that matter!), so it's either not something anyone talks about or people just don't care. If they get bad reception they assume it's their fault.
    We have plenty of shops and cafes around this way where the radio is playing with quite amusing levels of hiss, distortion or buzzes, and no-one seems to care at all!

    Oh, and I don't know of anyone who has DAB either, or plans to. Never seen any hint of people listening to the radio on their TV either :)
  • Martin PhillpMartin Phillp Posts: 34,679
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    Graculus wrote: »
    Nope. Won't happen. I really don't get some people's insistence on mobile broadband being the future of radio. It isn't, or not in the forseeable future at least.
    For a start, it's not free, which broadcast radio is. Forcing people to cough up £30 a month, or whatever, just to listen to the radio is a bit much. And that's PER receiver! I can't see the telcos subsidising this by lowering their costs.

    Three's Mi-Fi allows wi-fi Internet radios to be connected to the one MBB connection.
  • Gerry1Gerry1 Posts: 4,206
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    bowland37 wrote: »
    http://james.cridland.net/blog/dab-and-dab-the-differences-and-why-its-not-for-the-uk/

    Seems like it's a non starter. Surely the real way forward is internet radio over 4G mobile broadband?
    James Cridland's article states little more than the 'chicken and egg' argument that there aren't any many DAB+ radios because there aren't any DAB+ transmissions.

    If we'd followed that self-defeating reasoning we'd still be watching 405-line monochrome TV and listening to 78rpm mono records.

    DAB+ really does sound better. I was driving around Australia and New Zealand recently and left Fade On Burble switched off. DAB+ always muted cleanly, but plain old DAB suffered the familiar screeches and boiling mud effects. It was great having a choice of two Country stations in Sydney, and almost everything was in stereo.

    It's really disappointing to find that even with 5 - 7 muxes available around London there's still not much real choice, not one Country station anywhere. Incredibly, on Digital 1 only 4 out of 14 stations are stereo, and it's even worse on London 3, just 1 out of 17.

    '405-line Radio' simply doesn't represent progress !
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,398
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    Gerry1 wrote: »
    James Cridland's article states little more than the 'chicken and egg' argument that there aren't any many DAB+ radios because there aren't any DAB+ transmissions.

    What it also says is DAB+ broadcasters tend to use 48k AAC+ which sounds no better than 128k MP2.

    Whilst 48k AAC+ might be an improvement on the current situation for most UK DAB stations it's still far from hi fi sound and not really something I'd want to buy another radio for.
  • tghe-retfordtghe-retford Posts: 26,449
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    bowland37 wrote: »
    http://james.cridland.net/blog/dab-and-dab-the-differences-and-why-its-not-for-the-uk/

    Seems like it's a non starter. Surely the real way forward is internet radio over 4G mobile broadband?
    The whole radio industry and every radio industry expert I have seen have stated that DAB+ will never, ever happen in the UK. The Government has also ruled out any introduction of DAB+ too in radio switchover plans.

    I'd forget any concept of DAB+ being introduced in the UK, the radio industry, experts, Government, maybe even the majority of the listening public, don't want it. :(

    The only way you'll get radio broadcast in AAC(+) format is via Internet radio, although that has its own problems with it being kept behind paywalls (ISP subscription, line rental, mobile phone subscriptions and so forth).
  • hanssolohanssolo Posts: 22,561
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    Things might have been different if D1 and the Pure Evoke set had been delayed from 2002 to 2007 to allow DAB+ to be launched, but we now have a lot of standard DAB sets, however every new set is now upgradable to DAB+ and coverage planning takes DAB+ into account so it is possible at least one DAB+ station could launch? Will Absolute be brave enough?
    But the droppouts and burbling will decrease on standard DAB as the rollout continues across the UK
    Three's Mi-Fi allows wi-fi Internet radios to be connected to the one MBB connection.
    Still £10 pm for the cheapest Three offering, and £15 pm for a restricted EE 4G offering where as Absolute 80s DAB at 115k is FTA, down to ones own choice?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,398
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    The only way you'll get radio broadcast in AAC(+) format is via Internet radio, although that has its own problems with it being kept behind paywalls (ISP subscription, line rental, mobile phone subscriptions and so forth).

    The article says:

    A DAB+ audio signal is encoded in aacPlus (strictly, aacPlus HE v2)
  • Gerry1Gerry1 Posts: 4,206
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    hanssolo wrote: »
    ... every new set is now upgradable to DAB+ and coverage planning takes DAB+ into account so it is possible at least one DAB+ station could launch?
    An obvious candidate for the first DAB+ station would be The Arrow on London 3.

    It's a 96k mono station, so DAB+ would allow a welcome return to stereo. Any loss of audience would have no revenue implications because it carries no advertising whatsoever !

    Even 48k DAB+ stereo would be an improvement on 96k DAB, and presumably it would also halve the carriage costs.

    London 3 also has limited coverage towards the south because it still shares 11B with the adjacent Sussex Coast mux, so the superior error correction with DAB+ would also be beneficial.
    bowland37 wrote: »
    What it also says is DAB+ broadcasters tend to use 48k AAC+ which sounds no better than 128k MP2.
    Well, even something equivalent to 128 MP2 would be a lot better than 64k MP2 mono !

    In fact, it's debatable whether broadcasters do tend to use 48k AAC+. Looking at the Sydney muxes, only 15 out of 57 stations use 48k and some of them are speech stations.

    In any case, Ofcom could (and should) specify a minimum standard for music stations so it's not a valid reason for blocking DAB+.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,398
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    Gerry1 wrote: »
    In any case, Ofcom could (and should) specify a minimum standard for music stations so it's not a valid reason for blocking DAB+.

    Could the likes of the Pure One be upgraded to DAB+ via a software upgrade?

    DAB sets are still expensive. That's the problem imo
  • InkblotInkblot Posts: 26,889
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    bowland37 wrote: »
    Could the likes of the Pure One be upgraded to DAB+ via a software upgrade?

    I don't think any DAB radios have an over-the-air software update facility the way TVs and Sky boxes do. Some may be upgradeable by connecting them to a computer but that's never going to be practical for the average listener.
  • Gerry1Gerry1 Posts: 4,206
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    Inkblot wrote: »
    I don't think any DAB radios have an over-the-air software update facility the way TVs and Sky boxes do. Some may be upgradeable by connecting them to a computer but that's never going to be practical for the average listener.
    The Pure Highway doesn't need to be connected to a computer to unlock its DAB+ functionality; it's just a case of inputting a code based on the serial number.

    Even if it has old software, upgrading it needs a connection but it's still straightforward.
  • Peter the GreatPeter the Great Posts: 14,226
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    446.09375 wrote: »
    Because DAB is fundamentally flawed being a multiplex system, sharing a bitstream with other stations. It's inevitable that sound quality will be sacrificed for quantity of services by people who value that more than quality. So, although it may be capable of good sound, it's never going to happen in reality because of human nature being what it is.
    At least with FM, the way people mess it up is usually less objectionable, and being a single service per RF carrier there's no incentive to deliberately foul up the quality.

    We would have been better off with a single service per carrier system; something like a VHF quality version of DRM.


    That's an RF coverage area issue. What's worse, temporary hiss and mono, or 'boiling mud' and drop-outs? I prefer graceful degredation, at least you know what's happening and don't get any jarring sudden surprises.

    I've never heard any friends or family complain about radio quality on FM (or AM for that matter!), so it's either not something anyone talks about or people just don't care. If they get bad reception they assume it's their fault.
    We have plenty of shops and cafes around this way where the radio is playing with quite amusing levels of hiss, distortion or buzzes, and no-one seems to care at all!

    Oh, and I don't know of anyone who has DAB either, or plans to. Never seen any hint of people listening to the radio on their TV either :)
    But FM is crap in that you need numerous frequencies to broadcast national stations. Classic FM is never stereo on the move but is on DAB with no burbles. I can only get 7 FM stations in stereo in my area 5 of which are BBC Stations. Even with the amount of stations in mono on DAB there are still more available in stereo than FM.
  • SouthCitySouthCity Posts: 12,354
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    The whole radio industry and every radio industry expert I have seen have stated that DAB+ will never, ever happen in the UK. The Government has also ruled out any introduction of DAB+ too in radio switchover plans.

    I'd forget any concept of DAB+ being introduced in the UK, the radio industry, experts, Government, maybe even the majority of the listening public, don't want it. :(

    Ofcom haven't completely ruled it out:
    DAB+ is a variant of DAB which uses a more advanced audio coding technology and provides greater capacity on digital multiplexes. We note that the capability to receive DAB+ has been included in the approved receiver specifications, and the coverage planning we are currently undertaking would be equally applicable for DAB+ services.

    http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/dab-coverage-planning/statement/statement.pdf
  • InkblotInkblot Posts: 26,889
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    Gerry1 wrote: »
    The Pure Highway doesn't need to be connected to a computer to unlock its DAB+ functionality; it's just a case of inputting a code based on the serial number.

    Even if it has old software, upgrading it needs a connection but it's still straightforward.

    I've unlocked the DAB+ functionality in my Highway but I'm not aware of any other DAB radios that have DAB+ installed but disabled. Does anyone know of any?

    In fact I abandoned the idea of using the Highway as a personal DAB+ radio in Europe because it sounded poor on earphones. Bought a Pure Move 400D instead and it's great.
  • tghe-retfordtghe-retford Posts: 26,449
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    SouthCity wrote: »
    The DCMS have for the foreseeable future. And they take precedence over Ofcom:

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldselect/ldcomuni/100/10007.htm

    And regardless, the same document shows universal rejection by the industry and experts alike for any transition to DAB+. Nothing Ofcom or DCMS will do about that with a free market capitalist Government and media regulator in place. My point still stands, DAB+ will not be introduced in the UK.
  • SouthCitySouthCity Posts: 12,354
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    The DCMS have for the foreseeable future. And they take precedence over Ofcom:

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldselect/ldcomuni/100/10007.htm

    That quote is from the House of Lords Select Committee acting in an advisory role, not the DCMS. It dates from March 2010, so it's almost three years old, and well before this announcement:

    http://tech.ebu.ch/news/euro-chip-will-mobilize-digital-radios-f-14nov12

    The Secretary of State (currently Maria Miller) will leave it to Ofcom to decide whether to allow DAB+ for commercial stations (as they have with DVB-T2 on Freeview). It will then be up to the market to decide if and when they want to introduce DAB+ in the UK.
  • hanssolohanssolo Posts: 22,561
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    Its all Grant Goddards recommendation. I can see the point about confusing the public. But at least a cost analysis of moving to DAB+ will be done. But as with the mobile TV service a station could still go DAB+ in the data section of a mux if enough sets could pick it up. Such as one of the Absolute deciades stations. But keeping to standard DAB will get more listeners.
  • mfrmfr Posts: 5,600
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    hanssolo wrote: »
    Its all Grant Goddards recommendation. I can see the point about confusing the public. But at least a cost analysis of moving to DAB+ will be done. But as with the mobile TV service a station could still go DAB+ in the data section of a mux if enough sets could pick it up. Such as one of the Absolute deciades stations. But keeping to standard DAB will get more listeners.

    What's the maximum D1 is allowed to allocate to data?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 789
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    I've just caught this thread and I am deeply disappointed.

    I've not listened to Ab90's dues to its poor sound quality, but have loved Ab80's.

    I'm afraid they will lose another listener if this downgrade is the case.

    Just for the record, my DAB listening is done in the car, with a factory fitted Ford/Sony premium multi speaker & sub woofer stereo.
    Believe me, with this system, you can tell the difference in quality, which may not show so much on a single speaker portable radio.
  • -ajm--ajm- Posts: 5,832
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    Whitey_GRN wrote: »
    I've just caught this thread and I am deeply disappointed.

    I've not listened to Ab90's dues to its poor sound quality, but have loved Ab80's.

    I'm afraid they will lose another listener if this downgrade is the case.

    Just for the record, my DAB listening is done in the car, with a factory fitted Ford/Sony premium multi speaker & sub woofer stereo.
    Believe me, with this system, you can tell the difference in quality, which may not show so much on a single speaker portable radio.

    They haven't changed. It's still 112.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 789
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    -ajm- wrote: »
    They haven't changed. It's still 112.

    Phew!!

    Because, to be honest, without Ab80's, I may as well just listen to FM as my local stations Minster FM & BBC Radio York are not on DAB as York does not have a local and we do not receive other locals very well.
    We do get the regional Yorkshire transmision, however I understand thats being closed, which is rubbish as this means we will only receive the nationals properly without any drops.

    DAB radio appears to be run in a very amature kind of way. :(
  • hanssolohanssolo Posts: 22,561
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    Muxco and UKRD seem to be getting ready to launch the North Yorkshire (Radio York, Minster, Stray and Yorkshire coast radio) and Surrey muxes in 2014, The MXR mux will close 2015 and some stations (except Real which may be merged with Heart by then) will probably move to the new local mux?
    mfr wrote: »
    What's the maximum D1 is allowed to allocate to data?
    I think about 20%, the ch4 and Muxco muxes were planning a DAB+ like podcast system where AAC+ stereo content from extra radio stations will download automatically to Iriver and other suitable sets for instant playback, don't know if Muxco are still going ahead with it? Will see when the first Muxco mux launches in 2013, but sadly think it may not go ahead as there are not many suitable sets sold?.
  • BangersBangers Posts: 3,626
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    mfr wrote: »
    What's the maximum D1 is allowed to allocate to data?

    The limit is 30% of the multiplex - this applies to any multiplex operator, not just Digital One.
  • ResonanceResonance Posts: 16,638
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    hanssolo wrote: »
    Muxco and UKRD seem to be getting ready to launch the North Yorkshire (Radio York, Minster, Stray and Yorkshire coast radio) and Surrey muxes in 2014.

    Where did you get this info? I'm not saying you're wrong but can't find anything on the Muxco site and we've been waiting since 2007 for any movement on the N.Yorks mux.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 789
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    Resonance wrote: »
    Where did you get this info? I'm not saying you're wrong but can't find anything on the Muxco site and we've been waiting since 2007 for any movement on the N.Yorks mux.

    It's my understanding that UKRD want nothing to do with DAB and also don't want to pay for it. The BBC can not open a transmitter, but are allocated a place on one when it opens.

    It is mainly Global & Bauer who are the financial backers on the DAB project and as niether have a station based in North Yorkshire, the likelyhood of anything happening soon is not great.
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