Im surprised this has gone unnoticed by most of the forum. Shabby and Govan used the word "Pasta" for Mario to discuss noms. Can you imagine if that had been someone calling an Indian person "curry" or a Chinese person "Chow Mein"!:eek:
Why have these two individuals not been pulled up for what is blatant xenophobia?:mad:
Oh! I didnt get why they were calling him pasta! That is offensive!
Do you honestly find it racist to be called a Pom or a Limey?
And do Scots and Welsh throw their hands up in horror when they hear the word Jock or Taffy?
I think "We" are bigger people than that!!
I dont mind Pom so much but do get offended when called an Island Monkey, usually as its done with more of a sneer than when called a whingin pom which usually comes with a laugh.
Wait, go around calling Germans krauts and Italians wops and nobody bats an eyelid? Are you Alf Garnet?
Yeah I thought that was a little off... I'm half Italian and I wouldn't like anybody calling me or my family Wops
Pasta is ok I guess, speaking for my people, but still I don't think it's a great idea to use cultural references as code... it can only end badly a la Goody vs Shetty...
It's just words. Words are all about context and association, there are no words in the world which can never be used in any context whatsoever. If you asked a hundred people in the street to come with up a word they'd associate with Italian culture, you could say the question itself was incitement to racism, if you were a nob. If you weren't a nob you'd expect answers to include pasta, catholic, ferrari, mafia, hands, retreat, etc. My guess is pasta might come top.
Poppadom was more of an intentional racial put-down than pasta. It was "her with her bloody foreign-ness and her foreign name which it is beneath me to learn to say."
Yeah I thought that was a little off... I'm half Italian and I wouldn't like anybody calling me or my family Wops
Pasta is ok I guess, speaking for my people, but still I don't think it's a great idea to use cultural references as code... it can only end badly a la Goody vs Shetty...
Sorry to copy own post, seem to have put this in random thread by mistake instead of here.
Very reasonable question. You have to put it in its historical context. N***er is probably top of the tree because of centuries of (respectively) slavery, Jim Crowe laws, apartheid and racist attacks. There are extremely offensive terms for South Asians and Jews as well, for similar reasons.
Lower down the scale are derogatory terms for ethnic groups historically considered equal or at least respectable: Krauts, Micks and Paddies, Spiks, Jocks and dagos. (Hope I don't get banned for putting all these words in one post. )
Lowest of all would be mild cultural references and nicknames with no derogatory intent: nicknaming a Scottish person haggis, putting O' in front of an Irish person's name or 'Mac' in front of a Scottish person's name etc. 'Pasta' surely comes into this category, in the context we saw. It is inconceivable that any insult to Italian people was meant.
It is unfortunate that 'poppadom' has come to be used as short-hand for all the unacceptable things said in the CBB5 house because it just muddies the waters. If the only reprehensible thing that Jade had said was 'Shilpa Poppadom', it would have surely been followed by nothing worse than a word of advice. I actually wonder whether the papers keep printing it simply because 'F***wallah' is so offensive that they don't want to print that. But people coming to the story 'cold' must wonder sometimes what on earth it was all about. An Indian girl was called poppadom, and effigies were burnt in the streets?
Well yes they are a race. Caucasian. If 'Pappadom' was offensive v. Shilpa, then why is 'Pasta' not offensive for a description of an Italian?
Food culture comments like this aren't racist. They might be deemed rude, however. In this case, neither Scabby nor Goblin were being "racist" or particularly "offensive". They were using the word pasta as a code word. Not very original, or clever.
Calling this "racist" complicates it - Scabbs and Mario are both Caucasian. Govan is Negroid (or Nilotic even....).....
It's just words. Words are all about context and association, there are no words in the world which can never be used in any context whatsoever. If you asked a hundred people in the street to come with up a word they'd associate with Italian culture, you could say the question itself was incitement to racism, if you were a nob. If you weren't a nob you'd expect answers to include pasta, catholic, ferrari, mafia, hands, retreat, etc. My guess is pasta might come top.
Poppadom was more of an intentional racial put-down than pasta. It was "her with her bloody foreign-ness and her foreign name which it is beneath me to learn to say."
Poppadum was no different a term than pasta. It was not a racial put down any more than the pasta remark was. Shetty was arrogant and spoilt - and had many rows with the other women over this attitude problem. Shetty also knew that under the English caste system - women like Jackiey, Danielle, Jo and Jade were beyond the pale - working class or "chavs", and equivalent to low caste people in her own country.
As to not learning her name pronunciation - Dick Dastardly couldn't pronounce her name but that was okay. Jackiey's failure (probable cause - dyslexia) was not okay and Shetty made an issue of it.
Poppadum was no different a term than pasta. It was not a racial put down any more than the pasta remark was. Shetty was arrogant and spoilt - and had many rows with the other women over this attitude problem. Shetty also knew that under the English caste system - women like Jackiey, Danielle, Jo and Jade were beyond the pale - working class or "chavs", and equivalent to low caste people in her own country.
As to not learning her name pronunciation - Dick Dastardly couldn't pronounce her name but that was okay. Jackiey's failure (probable cause - dyslexia) was not okay and Shetty made an issue of it.
Don't agree with any of that really. Shilpa was never less than polite, and was visibly disappointed not to be accepted, especially by Danielle, whom she really liked. She was a girly girl, and nothing would have pleased her more than to sit trying out make up with Danielle.
And Jackiey hardly made an effort, did she? 'The Indian' was not a very impressive attempt to pronounce a two syllable name.
Sorry to copy own post, seem to have put this in random thread by mistake instead of here.
Very reasonable question. You have to put it in its historical context. N***er is probably top of the tree because of centuries of (respectively) slavery, Jim Crowe laws, apartheid and racist attacks. There are extremely offensive terms for South Asians and Jews as well, for similar reasons.
Lower down the scale are derogatory terms for ethnic groups historically considered equal or at least respectable: Krauts, Micks and Paddies, Spiks, Jocks and dagos. (Hope I don't get banned for putting all these words in one post. )
Lowest of all would be mild cultural references and nicknames with no derogatory intent: nicknaming a Scottish person haggis, putting O' in front of an Irish person's name or 'Mac' in front of a Scottish person's name etc. 'Pasta' surely comes into this category, in the context we saw. It is inconceivable that any insult to Italian people was meant.
It is unfortunate that 'poppadom' has come to be used as short-hand for all the unacceptable things said in the CBB5 house because it just muddies the waters. If the only reprehensible thing that Jade had said was 'Shilpa Poppadom', it would have surely been followed by nothing worse than a word of advice. I actually wonder whether the papers keep printing it simply because 'F***wallah' is so offensive that they don't want to print that. But people coming to the story 'cold' must wonder sometimes what on earth it was all about. An Indian girl was called poppadom, and effigies were burnt in the streets?
The Shipla/Jade problems were caused by Shilpa's egocentrism - she is arrogant and spoilt. Don't be fooled by the veneer of private school politeness she affects. She is an attention-seeker and is used, in Indian culture, to be treated like something "special" (having subserviant Indian employees bowing and scraping before her etc).
The word you quote "f*ckawallah" is rude, but not racist. (I was surprised at Jade actually putting the word wallah together with the other obvious expletive).
As to the effigies - if you look at the film, the men burning the effigies were poor and low caste - therefore I made this connection : someone has paid these men to do this in the street. Men who probably have no idea who Shilpa Shetty is and could not afford to watch her films anyway.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
I would say that the origins of the fuss and the list of names that was organised can be traced back to Mummy Shetty. :cool:
Don't agree with any of that really. Shilpa was never less than polite, and was visibly disappointed not to be accepted, especially by Danielle, whom she really liked. She was a girly girl, and nothing would have pleased her more than to sit trying out make up with Danielle.
And Jackiey hardly made an effort, did she? 'The Indian' was not a very impressive attempt to pronounce a two syllable name.
Shilpa Shetty is spoilt and has a well developed sense of entitlement.
Jackiey is not the most intelligent or sophisticated woman in the world is she? She felt that Shetty looked down on her and she was correct. I wouldn't expect her to make an effort. She obviously felt intimidated by most of the other HMs. Add to this that they seemed to like Shetty. Carole Malone hinted at Shetty's narcissism in some of her comments. The shopping task was a case in point, when Shetty took charge etc.
As for "girly girl" - Shetty was no girl, being a mature woman well into her thirties with a career in India on the slide and an embarrassing court case involving badly-used factory workers and attempts at extortion. :eek::eek:
Shetty didn't "really like" Danielle - she selected Danielle as the best chance of a foil for herself - attractive, glamorous - but Danielle aligned herself with the other women instead.
The word you quote "f*ckawallah" is rude, but not racist. (I was surprised at Jade actually putting the word wallah together with the other obvious expletive).
Nonsense. You do know the history of the wallah in terms of British colonialism in India? F*ckslave of the British does seem a mite jingoistic and bigotted as well as very rude.
Jingoism - extreme nationalism characterised especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism.
And yes, it is surprising the depth of vocabulary Jade seemed to find when fired up by hatred.
Pasta is nowhere near that league. As a food-based reference it's nowhere near Kraut even.
And yes, it is surprising the depth of vocabulary Jade seemed to find when fired up by hatred.
I don't think she had an idea at all of its background. She had heard 'something wallah' in the sort of films that use this sort of term, and extemporised an insult on the spot. Anyway, probably best not to get into all that again.
I don't think she had an idea at all of its background. She had heard 'something wallah' in the sort of films that use this sort of term, and extemporised an insult on the spot. Anyway, probably best not to get into all that again.
What sort of films are they? The last time I remember it being used was in It Ain't Half Hot Mum, which was long ago but I'm betting you remember it too . Maybe Jo or Danielle whispered it first, not that they seemed any better informed than Jade on the whole.
No you're right there's nothing left to say here, you summed it up when you said it was unwise going anywhere near his background for a reference. "Underground" would have been better, or "Diggy diggy hill maker" or something. Not very snappy though.
No you're right there's nothing left to say here, you summed it up when you said it was unwise going anywhere near his background for a reference. "Underground" would have been better, or "Diggy diggy hill maker" or something. Not very snappy though.
Shilpa Shetty is spoilt and has a well developed sense of entitlement.
Jackiey is not the most intelligent or sophisticated woman in the world is she? She felt that Shetty looked down on her and she was correct. I wouldn't expect her to make an effort. She obviously felt intimidated by most of the other HMs. Add to this that they seemed to like Shetty. Carole Malone hinted at Shetty's narcissism in some of her comments. The shopping task was a case in point, when Shetty took charge etc.
As for "girly girl" - Shetty was no girl, being a mature woman well into her thirties with a career in India on the slide and an embarrassing court case involving badly-used factory workers and attempts at extortion. :eek::eek:
Shetty didn't "really like" Danielle - she selected Danielle as the best chance of a foil for herself - attractive, glamorous - but Danielle aligned herself with the other women instead.
Wow, I can just about get my head around people finding fault on both sides but to practically lay all the blame on Shilpa for the way she was treated beggars belief.
This thread gets funnier as it goes along. Looks like we'll have to get rid of "scouse" now, since it's a traditional stew eaten by Liverpudlians for centuries.
Does it really need to be said that words become offensive by association? "Kraut" is an offensive word because it was commonly used by Americans in WWII to describe their enemies. In this country we called them "Jerries" or "Boche" or "Hun". So, by association, they are still mildly insulting (though I find it hard to get worked up about them myself). Another example is "dago", which was originally "diego", our word for Spaniards during our wars against them in the 16th century. All the words that could be called offensive have origins denoting contempt or hostility. So, it's unwise to use them today, even if you use them without hostile intent.
That doesn't apply to "pasta" however, which has no such associations, and has never been used as a derogatory term. And if you want to use it in a context where you can't say someone's name, go ahead. Those who want to complain about it to OFCOM can also go ahead, of course, but they'll get the answer they deserve. One social skill everyone should develop is a sense of proportion.
Comments
Oh! I didnt get why they were calling him pasta! That is offensive!
I dont mind Pom so much but do get offended when called an Island Monkey, usually as its done with more of a sneer than when called a whingin pom which usually comes with a laugh.
Yeah I thought that was a little off... I'm half Italian and I wouldn't like anybody calling me or my family Wops
Pasta is ok I guess, speaking for my people, but still I don't think it's a great idea to use cultural references as code... it can only end badly a la Goody vs Shetty...
and some rice to order please!;)
Poppadom was more of an intentional racial put-down than pasta. It was "her with her bloody foreign-ness and her foreign name which it is beneath me to learn to say."
Sorry to copy own post, seem to have put this in random thread by mistake instead of here.
Very reasonable question. You have to put it in its historical context. N***er is probably top of the tree because of centuries of (respectively) slavery, Jim Crowe laws, apartheid and racist attacks. There are extremely offensive terms for South Asians and Jews as well, for similar reasons.
Lower down the scale are derogatory terms for ethnic groups historically considered equal or at least respectable: Krauts, Micks and Paddies, Spiks, Jocks and dagos. (Hope I don't get banned for putting all these words in one post. )
Lowest of all would be mild cultural references and nicknames with no derogatory intent: nicknaming a Scottish person haggis, putting O' in front of an Irish person's name or 'Mac' in front of a Scottish person's name etc. 'Pasta' surely comes into this category, in the context we saw. It is inconceivable that any insult to Italian people was meant.
It is unfortunate that 'poppadom' has come to be used as short-hand for all the unacceptable things said in the CBB5 house because it just muddies the waters. If the only reprehensible thing that Jade had said was 'Shilpa Poppadom', it would have surely been followed by nothing worse than a word of advice. I actually wonder whether the papers keep printing it simply because 'F***wallah' is so offensive that they don't want to print that. But people coming to the story 'cold' must wonder sometimes what on earth it was all about. An Indian girl was called poppadom, and effigies were burnt in the streets?
Food culture comments like this aren't racist. They might be deemed rude, however. In this case, neither Scabby nor Goblin were being "racist" or particularly "offensive". They were using the word pasta as a code word. Not very original, or clever.
Calling this "racist" complicates it - Scabbs and Mario are both Caucasian. Govan is Negroid (or Nilotic even....).....
Poppadum was no different a term than pasta. It was not a racial put down any more than the pasta remark was. Shetty was arrogant and spoilt - and had many rows with the other women over this attitude problem. Shetty also knew that under the English caste system - women like Jackiey, Danielle, Jo and Jade were beyond the pale - working class or "chavs", and equivalent to low caste people in her own country.
As to not learning her name pronunciation - Dick Dastardly couldn't pronounce her name but that was okay. Jackiey's failure (probable cause - dyslexia) was not okay and Shetty made an issue of it.
Don't agree with any of that really. Shilpa was never less than polite, and was visibly disappointed not to be accepted, especially by Danielle, whom she really liked. She was a girly girl, and nothing would have pleased her more than to sit trying out make up with Danielle.
And Jackiey hardly made an effort, did she? 'The Indian' was not a very impressive attempt to pronounce a two syllable name.
The Shipla/Jade problems were caused by Shilpa's egocentrism - she is arrogant and spoilt. Don't be fooled by the veneer of private school politeness she affects. She is an attention-seeker and is used, in Indian culture, to be treated like something "special" (having subserviant Indian employees bowing and scraping before her etc).
The word you quote "f*ckawallah" is rude, but not racist. (I was surprised at Jade actually putting the word wallah together with the other obvious expletive).
As to the effigies - if you look at the film, the men burning the effigies were poor and low caste - therefore I made this connection : someone has paid these men to do this in the street. Men who probably have no idea who Shilpa Shetty is and could not afford to watch her films anyway.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
I would say that the origins of the fuss and the list of names that was organised can be traced back to Mummy Shetty. :cool:
And still they ignore you....
signed
'Rice and Pea'
Shilpa Shetty is spoilt and has a well developed sense of entitlement.
Jackiey is not the most intelligent or sophisticated woman in the world is she? She felt that Shetty looked down on her and she was correct. I wouldn't expect her to make an effort. She obviously felt intimidated by most of the other HMs. Add to this that they seemed to like Shetty. Carole Malone hinted at Shetty's narcissism in some of her comments. The shopping task was a case in point, when Shetty took charge etc.
As for "girly girl" - Shetty was no girl, being a mature woman well into her thirties with a career in India on the slide and an embarrassing court case involving badly-used factory workers and attempts at extortion. :eek::eek:
Shetty didn't "really like" Danielle - she selected Danielle as the best chance of a foil for herself - attractive, glamorous - but Danielle aligned herself with the other women instead.
Jingoism - extreme nationalism characterised especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism.
And yes, it is surprising the depth of vocabulary Jade seemed to find when fired up by hatred.
Pasta is nowhere near that league. As a food-based reference it's nowhere near Kraut even.
I don't think she had an idea at all of its background. She had heard 'something wallah' in the sort of films that use this sort of term, and extemporised an insult on the spot. Anyway, probably best not to get into all that again.
No you're right there's nothing left to say here, you summed it up when you said it was unwise going anywhere near his background for a reference. "Underground" would have been better, or "Diggy diggy hill maker" or something. Not very snappy though.
No, I wasn't referring to him in code either, I love Jerk Chicken!
Wow, I can just about get my head around people finding fault on both sides but to practically lay all the blame on Shilpa for the way she was treated beggars belief.
Does it really need to be said that words become offensive by association? "Kraut" is an offensive word because it was commonly used by Americans in WWII to describe their enemies. In this country we called them "Jerries" or "Boche" or "Hun". So, by association, they are still mildly insulting (though I find it hard to get worked up about them myself). Another example is "dago", which was originally "diego", our word for Spaniards during our wars against them in the 16th century. All the words that could be called offensive have origins denoting contempt or hostility. So, it's unwise to use them today, even if you use them without hostile intent.
That doesn't apply to "pasta" however, which has no such associations, and has never been used as a derogatory term. And if you want to use it in a context where you can't say someone's name, go ahead. Those who want to complain about it to OFCOM can also go ahead, of course, but they'll get the answer they deserve. One social skill everyone should develop is a sense of proportion.