Guilty as charged. It helps us to understand behaviours if motivations are understood and behind that is intent ( or past patterns!)
The questions have all evolved about CHANGE.
How does a person change past habits? The challenge is all about pain, it is never about the carrot.
With DM we have witnessed change. Of course he is not going to change that exterior personna he puts on for his patients/public. That has taken years for him to develop. The ''Papa doc" character, blossomed before our eyes. From the guy who could barely hold the baby, to now the efficient dad who feels quite good at clothing, outing, changing and starting to have a relationship with his son.
In doc's mind, pain would be separation from JH, but now we see that separating from LG has created and will always create pain.
Where is LG's pain?
We talked about LG's abandonment issues. In her mind, she still feels her mother abandoned her because she was unlovable. Everytime she walked into a classroom, she had 14-16 adoring children( depending on the age) giving her the love she missed as a child. When LG birthed JH, she realized she was capable of giving and receiving great love. The love missing when she was a child. In LG's mind, pain is separating from JH. This why going to school has created angst. Her career is not her top priority because she feels more love in one minute with JH than she does with any of her students/colleagues. She was totally unprepared for this.
Having her mother around, LG has regressed into adolescence: being unappreciative (the dinner), picking fights (at the dinner table), contrariness, inattentively listening (DM explains about checking calendars) and storming out( to mother's). These are not the behaviours of a rational adult.
She is living the adolescence she never had. Most women after the birth of their babies, will rebond with their mothers. EG's not the best role model: "shady" "cigarette" "narcissistic" "alcohol to baby" but LG is willing to live with these faults knowing that her mother has returned and "will take care of her."
What will make LG change?
Obviously, if something happened to JH. She will discover her career never gave her the love she so badly sought.
EG will never be the mother LG wanted her to be. Once LG sees this, she'll realize the empty space she has created within her own life. This will be cause of deep pain.
wow excellent post and fills me with hope for the end of S5 (and then onto S6)
Sunanglais--that was an amazing post! Your insights into LG seem right on target-- so succinctly explaining how poorly she has been acting lately. The reverting to adolescence was something I had never actually conceptualized, but it makes such great sense. It was very clarifying to me. Thanks so much!
Guilty as charged. It helps us to understand behaviours if motivations are understood and behind that is intent ( or past patterns!)
The questions have all evolved about CHANGE.
How does a person change past habits? The challenge is all about pain, it is never about the carrot.
With DM we have witnessed change. Of course he is not going to change that exterior personna he puts on for his patients/public. That has taken years for him to develop. The ''Papa doc" character, blossomed before our eyes. From the guy who could barely hold the baby, to now the efficient dad who feels quite good at clothing, outing, changing and starting to have a relationship with his son.
In doc's mind, pain would be separation from JH, but now we see that separating from LG has created and will always create pain.
Where is LG's pain?
We talked about LG's abandonment issues. In her mind, she still feels her mother abandoned her because she was unlovable. Everytime she walked into a classroom, she had 14-16 adoring children( depending on the age) giving her the love she missed as a child. When LG birthed JH, she realized she was capable of giving and receiving great love. The love missing when she was a child. In LG's mind, pain is separating from JH. This why going to school has created angst. Her career is not her top priority because she feels more love in one minute with JH than she does with any of her students/colleagues. She was totally unprepared for this.
Having her mother around, LG has regressed into adolescence: being unappreciative (the dinner), picking fights (at the dinner table), contrariness, inattentively listening (DM explains about checking calendars) and storming out( to mother's). These are not the behaviours of a rational adult.
She is living the adolescence she never had. Most women after the birth of their babies, will rebond with their mothers. EG's not the best role model: "shady" "cigarette" "narcissistic" "alcohol to baby" but LG is willing to live with these faults knowing that her mother has returned and "will take care of her."
What will make LG change?
Obviously, if something happened to JH. She will discover her career never gave her the love she so badly sought.
EG will never be the mother LG wanted her to be. Once LG sees this, she'll realize the empty space she has created within her own life. This will be cause of deep pain.
Two (maybe three) thoughts to add to this,
It was telling that she didn't have enough confidence in DM's support of her to confide her anxieties about starting school to him, but instead had to talk to James. He has not been supportive, and seemed to close that door, but perhaps that was wrong on her (and our) part.
Second, from that perspective, any proposal to separate her from her son and send him off to boarding school was certain to trigger an extremely negative (threatened) reaction.
Third, it doesn't help in this situation then that DM sometimes deals with her as if she IS a child or rebellious teenager -- e.g., saying to her " are you ready for dinner now" as if, tantrum over, can we get on to grown-up concerns now? And of course, hiding those digestive biscuits!
Finally, to the jovial (I assume) comments about the psychological nature of the thread: in some ways, that is what the show has become about -- maybe has always been. Can a man, even a deeply damaged "vile" one, become healthier -- less phobic, more capable of intimacy, more access to his own emotional inner self, to the point where he can sustain a loving relationship. Right along up there is the theme of what it means to be a father (and a mother). It has a quirky exterior, a lot of humor, eccentric and more or less lovable characters, wobbly scenery, some contrived plots, but in the end, that's what it's "about" -- or so it seems to me.
When those issues are resolved, the show will be over. The blood phobia is going away, DM has shown capacity to bond with his son, and odds are his relationship to LG is going to get repaired, and be reparative. Don't know if will take a S6 to let all that play out.
Guilty as charged. It helps us to understand behaviours if motivations are understood and behind that is intent ( or past patterns!)
The questions have all evolved about CHANGE.
How does a person change past habits? The challenge is all about pain, it is never about the carrot.
With DM we have witnessed change. Of course he is not going to change that exterior personna he puts on for his patients/public. That has taken years for him to develop. The ''Papa doc" character, blossomed before our eyes. From the guy who could barely hold the baby, to now the efficient dad who feels quite good at clothing, outing, changing and starting to have a relationship with his son.
In doc's mind, pain would be separation from JH, but now we see that separating from LG has created and will always create pain.
Where is LG's pain?
We talked about LG's abandonment issues. In her mind, she still feels her mother abandoned her because she was unlovable. Everytime she walked into a classroom, she had 14-16 adoring children( depending on the age) giving her the love she missed as a child. When LG birthed JH, she realized she was capable of giving and receiving great love. The love missing when she was a child. In LG's mind, pain is separating from JH. This why going to school has created angst. Her career is not her top priority because she feels more love in one minute with JH than she does with any of her students/colleagues. She was totally unprepared for this.
Having her mother around, LG has regressed into adolescence: being unappreciative (the dinner), picking fights (at the dinner table), contrariness, inattentively listening (DM explains about checking calendars) and storming out( to mother's). These are not the behaviours of a rational adult.
She is living the adolescence she never had. Most women after the birth of their babies, will rebond with their mothers. EG's not the best role model: "shady" "cigarette" "narcissistic" "alcohol to baby" but LG is willing to live with these faults knowing that her mother has returned and "will take care of her."
What will make LG change?
Obviously, if something happened to JH. She will discover her career never gave her the love she so badly sought.
EG will never be the mother LG wanted her to be. Once LG sees this, she'll realize the empty space she has created within her own life. This will be cause of deep pain.
She thinks she is not worthy of love, so she pushes people away. If they get to know her they will realize that she is not worthy and will reject her. Leave them before they leave you. She didn't have the opportunity as an adolescent to test her parents love for her and realize that she is loved unconditionally. She may have been a very compliant child who didn't want to make waves for fear that her father would leave her, too. A neglectful father is better than no father. It was not a conscious decision because she was a child, but it was a coping strategy that worked for her in her youth.
Now her mother is back and that neglected child has been reawakened inside of her. That child inside of her that wanted to scream out that "this sh*tty situation is not the way it's supposed to be" but couldn't for fear of abandonment. She is not going to be able to repress her feelings anymore.
Unfortuntely it's misdirected anger towards her partner, who actually is a person who probably can handle it, which is why she is drawn to him, and probably why she acts like that with him.
For each of them it is their own responsibility to deal with their own issues, But the show is about each of them helping the other get to the other side and staying with each other even when the ride gets bumpy.
On the other hand, absolutely, DM could stop retreating into seriously awkward clinical comments, his established medical safety zone, and just allow his emotions of affection to spring forth, however fearful he is of them, since historically, they just brought him serious psychological pain.
I really love this show! ;-) ;-)
Mona
He may never stop going into medical speak or awkward speak. It is part of their private language, and she recognizes it more often now. It is sort of part of his charm once you understand his meaning.
"This is how it's always going to be, isn't it. You being you and me being... ..you know."
i was struck by the "and me being...you know"...was she skittering away from self awareness or was there a hint of acknowledgement that she had issues, as well? a nice piece of acting by cc...
And now for a bit of levity. As I am picking nits off my daughters head today, I remembered DM's response to a mother distraught by her daughter's newly diagnose case of head lice
"It's head lice, women, not leukemia!" Puts the whole ordeal in perspective. :D:D
And now for a bit of levity. As I am picking nits off my daughters head today, I remembered DM's response to a mother distraught by her daughter's newly diagnose case of head lice
"It's head lice, women, not leukemia!" Puts the whole ordeal in perspective. :D:D
First, one of the points they may be making is that, if a relationship between a couple isn't going well, having a child tends to make the situation worse, not better. I think we're seeing that here.
Second, I have to agree with DM that LG is not a good disciplinarian. Simply telling kids, "Don't do that," and watching them continue to misbehave doesn't seem all that effective. As with DM, I'm not suggesting corporal punishment, but some consequences for misbehavior might help.
As an aside (thought 2.5), in S3 DM seemed ok with corporal punishment if delivered by the parents. Has he changed his views or is he just not ok when it's done in school?
Third, how can DM be okay with LG's mom, who is a smoker, being around their child all day? Even if she doesn't smoke in front of him, he must smell it on her clothes, etc. Somewhat surprising that he hasn't made a point about it given his visceral reaction to smokers in the past.
First, one of the points they may be making is that, if a relationship between a couple isn't going well, having a child tends to make the situation worse, not better. I think we're seeing that here.
Second, I have to agree with DM that LG is not a good disciplinarian. Simply telling kids, "Don't do that," and watching them continue to misbehave doesn't seem all that effective. As with DM, I'm not suggesting corporal punishment, but some consequences for misbehavior might help.As an aside (thought 2.5), in S3 DM seemed ok with corporal punishment if delivered by the parents. Has he changed his views or is he just not ok when it's done in school?Third, how can DM be okay with LG's mom, who is a smoker, being around their child all day? Even if she doesn't smoke in front of him, he must smell it on her clothes, etc. Somewhat surprising that he hasn't made a point about it given his visceral reaction to smokers in the past.
Louisa doesn't seem to have a grip on things in school - not surprisingly! I think that I'm right in saying that corporal punishment is not allowed in schools in the UK.
I guess that the smoking issue will pop up soon;);)
Louisa doesn't seem to have a grip on things in school - not surprisingly
IMO, they've never really shown her as a strong teacher/principal. It's implied b/c people like her and she keeps getting the Head Teacher job. But it seems that every time we see her in action, she's simply saying: "That's not acceptable" or "We don't do that."
My one thought on this is that we're seeing LG at school from DM's perspective. And we know that he has different views on discipline than she does. But it would have been nice to have had one or two major school issues where she could take charge.
And while we may see the smoking issue arise (I'm UNSPOILED and want to stay that way), it should have come up by now, at least in passing. For example, Mom could promise not to smoke around the baby or something like that. To pretend that DM, sensitive as he is to things, wouldn't notice or comment for what must be several weeks of real time . . . only in PW!:rolleyes:
I liked the juxtaposition of Penhale and DM in Ep 6. He tried too hard to win over his ex, and lost her. DM didn't try hard enough . . . at least not yet.
And finally, wrt AR's comment about people not changing. I think it would have been more accurate for her to have said that you can't change someone else.
Thks for the post Connie. From watching I think AR is quite a schemer, especially when she came over and started talking to DM about the child's schooling, totally ignoring LG as if she wasn't part of the discussion or family (the Ellingham's closing ranks) and re-introducing DM to his clocks again with, the background being conflicts with his grandfather after him breaking his watch, the old guilt feeling again.
On a lighter note was that EC running into the school yard ahead of her father.
Just do like I do Bob, scroll quickly through those bits and concentrate on the posts that really matter - like the wobbly scenery.
Oh, and Julie Graham's teeth, which was mentioned by one poster two weeks running. Knowing the person as I do it was probably done purely to provoke a response and having failed to do so first time round, they found it necessary to mention it again.
Oh b*gger! I just realised I've given a response to it now. :mad:
Oh, and Julie Graham's teeth, which was mentioned by one poster two weeks running. Knowing the person as I do it was probably done purely to provoke a response and having failed to do so first time round, they found it necessary to mention it again.
Oh b*gger! I just realised I've given a response to it now. :mad:
I must have missed those posts Kernow. Mind you I am finding it really hard keeping up with things on here these days
Also, I have to say that when Aspergers was mentioned to MC he actually found it quite amusing. I don't think that he or BP intended the Doc to be anything other than a grumpy bugger! I certainly don't think they wrote him to be on a "spectrum".
i was struck by the "and me being...you know"...was she skittering away from self awareness or was there a hint of acknowledgement that she had issues, as well? a nice piece of acting by cc...
I reviewed the footage from the other night. (Series 5, 4/4 near ending) Look at DM's reaction when LG told him that. He didn't panic, he listened to her intently. He stayed calm. He was doing empathetic listening.
He didn't go into "Dr. speak." He didn't swing back. He paid attention, then allowed LG to express herself verbally and physically.
Well done Doc, there is hope for you yet. :):):)
I agree - I'm beginning to feel that I'm not highly qualified enough to be able to comment on such in depth analysis, takes all the fun away for me I'm afraid.:(
1. Did anyone notice, "Oh my little girl, don't make me cry I don't want my face to crack." (EG talking w/LG) giving credence to the fact that LG has regressed socially in the presence of her mother. :rolleyes:
2. DM laying out the tools to fix the clock, how beautiful his hands are. His hands look like the hands of a surgeon!
He's preparing to fix the clock; he's preparing for surgery. He's preparing to fix the situation?:eek:
I must have missed those posts Kernow. Mind you I am finding it really hard keeping up with things on here these days
Also, I have to say that when Aspergers was mentioned to MC he actually found it quite amusing. I don't think that he or BP intended the Doc to be anything other than a grumpy bugger! I certainly don't think they wrote him to be on a "spectrum".
'Psycho-analytical claptrap' or words to that effect was how DM referred to that kind of thing wasn't it?
Hmmm and exactly which "wobbly scenery" were you watching that day of filming GS
No doubt the same bits that you watched when you were there too LG Hard to believe that all those hours of filming ended up as such short segments of an episode isn't it?
So many good posts from newcomers and vets, it's dizzying! I am appreciating more and more the richness of this series, and BP’s commitment to avoiding the easy way out. I joke about escaping to PW but really the wonder of this show is that it’s not escapist - wrapped in the pretty scenery and funny bits is a pretty honest exploration of our frailties. As much as I want the fairytale ending what I really love is thinking about why DM and LG say what they say and do what they do, and hearing the forum’s thoughts on them. Today I’m thinking that the writers are trying to get us to take sides…while showing us what happens to a new family when those around them line up to take sides. Louisa’s mom and Martin’s AR are the perfect wedges to drive between them , each claiming to understand their family member best. How will they learn to trust one another when no one is rooting for them? If BL weren’t so busy losing his business and missing AL I bet he’d talk some sense into them
Third, how can DM be okay with LG's mom, who is a smoker, being around their child all day? Even if she doesn't smoke in front of him, he must smell it on her clothes, etc. Somewhat surprising that he hasn't made a point about it given his visceral reaction to smokers in the past.
Reminds me of one of my favorite characters of the past, Mrs. Avril. They could have her sit for James, if they aren't bothered by smokers.
S3E3.
Mrs. A: Mother smoked a pipe until she was 93.
ME ...And then she died.
Mrs. A: No! She lost her pipe.
I'm really loving all the over-analyzing. It's making my head spin.:eek: Watched it a second time last night and my impression of the episode has improved. However, I have to agree with Robspace54, too many goofy medical mysteries. Missed the 'wobbly scenery.' Guess I'll just have to view it again.:) Thanks Mclunesfan123 for putting it up on YT.:cool:
Comments
wow excellent post and fills me with hope for the end of S5 (and then onto S6)
Mona
Two (maybe three) thoughts to add to this,
It was telling that she didn't have enough confidence in DM's support of her to confide her anxieties about starting school to him, but instead had to talk to James. He has not been supportive, and seemed to close that door, but perhaps that was wrong on her (and our) part.
Second, from that perspective, any proposal to separate her from her son and send him off to boarding school was certain to trigger an extremely negative (threatened) reaction.
Third, it doesn't help in this situation then that DM sometimes deals with her as if she IS a child or rebellious teenager -- e.g., saying to her " are you ready for dinner now" as if, tantrum over, can we get on to grown-up concerns now? And of course, hiding those digestive biscuits!
Finally, to the jovial (I assume) comments about the psychological nature of the thread: in some ways, that is what the show has become about -- maybe has always been. Can a man, even a deeply damaged "vile" one, become healthier -- less phobic, more capable of intimacy, more access to his own emotional inner self, to the point where he can sustain a loving relationship. Right along up there is the theme of what it means to be a father (and a mother). It has a quirky exterior, a lot of humor, eccentric and more or less lovable characters, wobbly scenery, some contrived plots, but in the end, that's what it's "about" -- or so it seems to me.
When those issues are resolved, the show will be over. The blood phobia is going away, DM has shown capacity to bond with his son, and odds are his relationship to LG is going to get repaired, and be reparative. Don't know if will take a S6 to let all that play out.
She thinks she is not worthy of love, so she pushes people away. If they get to know her they will realize that she is not worthy and will reject her. Leave them before they leave you. She didn't have the opportunity as an adolescent to test her parents love for her and realize that she is loved unconditionally. She may have been a very compliant child who didn't want to make waves for fear that her father would leave her, too. A neglectful father is better than no father. It was not a conscious decision because she was a child, but it was a coping strategy that worked for her in her youth.
Now her mother is back and that neglected child has been reawakened inside of her. That child inside of her that wanted to scream out that "this sh*tty situation is not the way it's supposed to be" but couldn't for fear of abandonment. She is not going to be able to repress her feelings anymore.
Unfortuntely it's misdirected anger towards her partner, who actually is a person who probably can handle it, which is why she is drawn to him, and probably why she acts like that with him.
For each of them it is their own responsibility to deal with their own issues, But the show is about each of them helping the other get to the other side and staying with each other even when the ride gets bumpy.
He may never stop going into medical speak or awkward speak. It is part of their private language, and she recognizes it more often now. It is sort of part of his charm once you understand his meaning.
i was struck by the "and me being...you know"...was she skittering away from self awareness or was there a hint of acknowledgement that she had issues, as well? a nice piece of acting by cc...
"It's head lice, women, not leukemia!" Puts the whole ordeal in perspective.
Oh joy!
Then all the washing!! Good luck.
First, one of the points they may be making is that, if a relationship between a couple isn't going well, having a child tends to make the situation worse, not better. I think we're seeing that here.
Second, I have to agree with DM that LG is not a good disciplinarian. Simply telling kids, "Don't do that," and watching them continue to misbehave doesn't seem all that effective. As with DM, I'm not suggesting corporal punishment, but some consequences for misbehavior might help.
As an aside (thought 2.5), in S3 DM seemed ok with corporal punishment if delivered by the parents. Has he changed his views or is he just not ok when it's done in school?
Third, how can DM be okay with LG's mom, who is a smoker, being around their child all day? Even if she doesn't smoke in front of him, he must smell it on her clothes, etc. Somewhat surprising that he hasn't made a point about it given his visceral reaction to smokers in the past.
Louisa doesn't seem to have a grip on things in school - not surprisingly! I think that I'm right in saying that corporal punishment is not allowed in schools in the UK.
I guess that the smoking issue will pop up soon;);)
me too...sometimes it gets too intense
IMO, they've never really shown her as a strong teacher/principal. It's implied b/c people like her and she keeps getting the Head Teacher job. But it seems that every time we see her in action, she's simply saying: "That's not acceptable" or "We don't do that."
My one thought on this is that we're seeing LG at school from DM's perspective. And we know that he has different views on discipline than she does. But it would have been nice to have had one or two major school issues where she could take charge.
And while we may see the smoking issue arise (I'm UNSPOILED and want to stay that way), it should have come up by now, at least in passing. For example, Mom could promise not to smoke around the baby or something like that. To pretend that DM, sensitive as he is to things, wouldn't notice or comment for what must be several weeks of real time . . . only in PW!:rolleyes:
I liked the juxtaposition of Penhale and DM in Ep 6. He tried too hard to win over his ex, and lost her. DM didn't try hard enough . . . at least not yet.
And finally, wrt AR's comment about people not changing. I think it would have been more accurate for her to have said that you can't change someone else.
On a lighter note was that EC running into the school yard ahead of her father.
Oh, and Julie Graham's teeth, which was mentioned by one poster two weeks running. Knowing the person as I do it was probably done purely to provoke a response and having failed to do so first time round, they found it necessary to mention it again.
Oh b*gger! I just realised I've given a response to it now. :mad:
I must have missed those posts Kernow. Mind you I am finding it really hard keeping up with things on here these days
Also, I have to say that when Aspergers was mentioned to MC he actually found it quite amusing. I don't think that he or BP intended the Doc to be anything other than a grumpy bugger! I certainly don't think they wrote him to be on a "spectrum".
I reviewed the footage from the other night. (Series 5, 4/4 near ending) Look at DM's reaction when LG told him that. He didn't panic, he listened to her intently. He stayed calm. He was doing empathetic listening.
He didn't go into "Dr. speak." He didn't swing back. He paid attention, then allowed LG to express herself verbally and physically.
Well done Doc, there is hope for you yet.
I agree - I'm beginning to feel that I'm not highly qualified enough to be able to comment on such in depth analysis, takes all the fun away for me I'm afraid.:(
Yep, that's more my level of things too. I like wobbly scenery
Hmmm and exactly which "wobbly scenery" were you watching that day of filming GS
2. DM laying out the tools to fix the clock, how beautiful his hands are. His hands look like the hands of a surgeon!
He's preparing to fix the clock; he's preparing for surgery. He's preparing to fix the situation?:eek:
'Psycho-analytical claptrap' or words to that effect was how DM referred to that kind of thing wasn't it?
No doubt the same bits that you watched when you were there too LG
Reminds me of one of my favorite characters of the past, Mrs. Avril. They could have her sit for James, if they aren't bothered by smokers.
S3E3.
Mrs. A: Mother smoked a pipe until she was 93.
ME ...And then she died.
Mrs. A: No! She lost her pipe.