I also wondered what the point was in the facial reconstruction, as we already know what he looked like. I can just imagine them striving to make sure that it looked similar to the portrait, but with just sufficient differences to make it look as if it was done without influence and bias.
Wasn't the portrait painted after his death though, and tweaked by Tudor propagandists? So no-one knows what he really looked like.
The thing that alawys comes out of any docu etc. is that Richard was a good guy before Ed4 died, then suddenly morphed into a bully. I don't go for that one because all the years of his brother's reign, Richard wasn't even interested in London and court affairs. His sudden change had to be connected to his own survival. I reckon he must have felt he had to act on the spot or risk his whole existence and that of his family. If all the Neville lands had returned to the crown, he would have lost Middleham therefore his whole power base. He would have been totally isolated up north.
In May - June 1483 he was, imho, faced with a ghastly dilemma.
Tony Robinson would have been better than the chap who did it but someone with a history background would have been idea. So they could ask the right questions at the right time. I am not doubting that an overwhleming case was made for the skeleton being that of Richard III but the right person asking the right questions at various stages could have reinforced the case. Perhaps none of them wanted to get involved because of preconceptions that it was not going to result in anything being found.
I wonder if some of the more serious history programmes were offered the chance and turned it down so Channel 4 cobbled together a few people just for the programme?
Radio Times billed the prog as a Time Team special, with Tony Robinson presenting. There's a pic of him at the top of the page, and it says "Tony Robinson asks if a Leicester skeleton has regal roots".
So it looks as if he was edited out for some reason, maybe so that there could be more footage of Philippa and the wild-haired one. Strange decision on the part of the producer, imo.
Radio Times billed the prog as a Time Team special, with Tony Robinson presenting. There's a pic of him at the top of the page, and it says "Tony Robinson asks if a Leicester skeleton has regal roots".
So it looks as if he was edited out for some reason, maybe so that there could be more footage of Philippa and the wild-haired one. Strange decision on the part of the producer, imo.
They obviously cocked up.
More 4 showed a repeat on Saturday 8pm that was presented by Tony Robinson.
Fact or Fiction: Richard III
Tony Robinson searches for the truth about the former king of England, investigating whether he really did murder his two nephews, the princes in the tower, before seizing the throne. This documentary reveals that much of the information about the monarch appears to have been fabricated by subsequent generations, and an astonishing discovery questions the legitimacy of the past 500 years of British royalty.
I was disappointed by this, as it felt more like watching a Channel 5 ripperology hash than the quality I'd expect from the channel.
Phillipa, in spite of earning her place, was given far too much of a pedastal. Her tearful disappointment that the skeleton was hunchbacked, even slightly, was obsessive and irritating. The old art historian was far more interesting. Going on about how he was brilliant and perfect all the time is just as bad historically as saying he was an evil tyrant.
Mind you, when I did my history degree, we did get warned as womn about forming fantasist romantic attachments with historical figures (it never happens to men, by the way, apparently, as women aren't treated in the same way as men in most historical sources).
Some of the documentary was fascinating, particularly the doctor explaining the curved spine and his likely physicality, the art historian on the adjustments to his portrait for propaganda purposes, the facial reconstruction, and the battle wound analysis.
However, I agree with a lot of people that the programme could have done with a lot less Philippa. I admire her tenacity and passion, so credit where it’s due and I think she should have been included, but there’s seeing the emotional pay-off and then there’s crazy-pants hysteria.
When the scientist had to break-off in the middle of their report on their analysis when she started crying (again) and the programme switched from them to her, it was incredibly frustrating.
Just let her go and cry and compose herself off-camera. I think the documentary makers really screwed up with the tone and focus.
Worth watching, but could have done with a heavy edit.
Terrific post. Agree with absolutely every word of it.
I liked this documentary. I liked Philippa getting emotional about Richard. Why shouldn't she? I get emotional about lots of historical figures! You either get it or you don't. I liked the contrast between Philippa and the professionals. And it's an amazing story, however you look at it.
I must say, though, I liked this thread even more than the programme. I didn't intend to read all of it, but I got hooked. It was hilarious! thanks for the laughs, everyone.
Radio Times billed the prog as a Time Team special, with Tony Robinson presenting. There's a pic of him at the top of the page, and it says "Tony Robinson asks if a Leicester skeleton has regal roots".
So it looks as if he was edited out for some reason, maybe so that there could be more footage of Philippa and the wild-haired one. Strange decision on the part of the producer, imo.
I think the Radio Times screwed up if they printed Tony Robinson was involved.
Last September C4 announced a seperate series of historic walkabouts by Tony Robinson, while at the same time announcing the Car Park documentary.
The human remains, which show evidence of near-death trauma and curvature of the spine, will now be sent for forensic tests to establish whether they have indeed discovered the last English King to have been killed in battle. The DNA material will be tested to see if it matches that of a 17th-generation descendent of the monarch's sister. The results will be revealed in the documentary to be aired later this year.
What a thread this is..... character assassination's and Channel 4 getting it all wrong in the tone of the programme.:eek:
I thought it was very good....yes Philippa got emotional, but that was to be expected and the presenter wasn't your normal type {who is he}...but it all still made for fascinating viewing.
What a thread this is..... character assassination's and Channel 4 getting it all wrong in the tone of the programme.:eek:
I thought it was very good....yes Philippa got emotional, but that was to be expected and the presenter wasn't your normal type {who is he}...but it all still made for fascinating viewing.
And I liked Dr Jo Appleby.;)
Me too...... I'm sure she must have been working up a bit of a sweat under that forensic suit.....:o
Overall I enjoyed the programme, yes probably a bit too much of Phillipa, but the overall quirky nature of how the dig came to take place was typically British in a sort of 'One Of Our Dinosaurs Is Missing' sort of a way.
A more academic reflection of the discoveries will follow in time I'm sure.
I really enjoyed the programme, there is a space for a more "technical" programme and I'm sure it's in the pipline, but this was about one womans passion.
So they were debarred from inheriting the throne. The one who had also had a lot to gain from their deaths was Henry Tudor. Look at Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck, Warbeck especially, whose rebellion was a serious danger to Henry VII.
The real mystery is why Richard III didn't produce the children in London if they were still alive.
I also think it's fairly obvious that we are missing knowledge of a key sequence of events from around the time Hastings was executed. Something must've happened or Richard III discovered something or was told something that made him act the way he did. All we have is the effects of the information and not the information itself. I guess we'll never really know.
I think it was the total glossing over and non-mention of the Titus Regius that niggled me more than anything in programme
What a thread this is..... character assassination's and Channel 4 getting it all wrong in the tone of the programme.:eek:
I thought it was very good....yes Philippa got emotional, but that was to be expected and the presenter wasn't your normal type {who is he}...but it all still made for fascinating viewing.
And I liked Dr Jo Appleby.;)
Simon Farnaby a comedian and also if you have kids around the age of watching CBBC he will be recognised as one of the actors in Horrible Histories
Me too...... I'm sure she must have been working up a bit of a sweat under that forensic suit.....:o
Overall I enjoyed the programme, yes probably a bit too much of Phillipa, but the overall quirky nature of how the dig came to take place was typically British in a sort of 'One Of Our Dinosaurs Is Missing' sort of a way.
A more academic reflection of the discoveries will follow in time I'm sure.
I didn't notice the credits at the end but wondering if Philippa Langley had some involvement in the production of the programme. It could explain the odd choice of presenter. She is described as a screenwriter so will have contacts in the industry. Did she arrange with a production company to make the programme and perhaps gets some income from the company which would go towards paying for the excavation, there will presumably be some overseas sales though a friend in the US tells me his wife was confusing himwith Richard the Lionheart!
Hello there, :)pleased he's been found. Richard of York gave battle in vain:p. Amazing how things get stuck in your head I think He should be buried in York now,once the scientists have done all they need to.:D
Thats fair enough i take it you do not watch Time Team then which is a shame as they have made some marvellous programmes over the years.
Tony Robinson i think though would have been far more sympathetic to the show being an "amateur", the shows Presenter Simon Farnaby waas too much of an academic whom i could not easily connect with.:)
You see, I didn't mind Simon. Hair aside (wild? it was livid!:p) I liked the fact he presented with a bit of feeling and heart, even if he tried a bit too hard to be humorous, which I can understand could seem to trivialise it. As opposed to a serious, academic who recited the whole thing in a boring, monotone factual way. The whole thing seemed absolutely surreal from beginning to end and I was completely hooked!
Surely their is a Catholic cathedral in Leicester in where he could be reburied according to rites of the religion he followed when he was living
I would imagine not, as all the extant Cathedrals were nicked by the Church of England post-reformation, and Cathedrals aren't something that get built very often.
Same reason why you don't get lovely old country churches which are Roman Catholic.
I would imagine not, as all the extant Cathedrals were nicked by the Church of England post-reformation, and Cathedrals aren't something that get built very often.
Same reason why you don't get lovely old country churches which are Roman Catholic.
Westminster Cathedral is still RC, there are a few others.
Interesting post. No doubt you've hit the nail on the head but once upon a time the documentary would have been done properly from the start regardless of the likely outcome. I always remember that one about the fake Anastasia. That was just a dotty old woman but they made such a good programme out of it nevertheless. (I didn't know the outcome before watching as it was pre-internet.)
I thought it wasn't a bad doc actually - I hope there'll be a more detailed and forensic account of this but perhaps the tone of this would open it up to more people? I shouldn't think there are many who are interested in Richard 3rd so I'm hoping this would have reached more people.
What also amused me is that the car parking attendant seemed as if he hadn't moved from his little hut in the eight years I have been gone. Looked exactly the same!
Yes, I felt for the carpark man having his little empire all dug up. He had a look of defiance, as if to say - this is my job, even if there is no car park to speak of, or I end up in a trench!
Surely their is a Catholic cathedral in Leicester in where he could be reburied according to rites of the religion he followed when he was living
It seems to may be a case of watch this space. Richard was to be interred at Leicester Cathedral which traces its history to a Saxon bishop in AD 680 and as such was within the guidelines regarding burying bodies close to where they are exhumed. Change may be afoot as according to the news today York wish to claim him for their Minister and have already written to the Queen.
Comments
Wasn't the portrait painted after his death though, and tweaked by Tudor propagandists? So no-one knows what he really looked like.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that! I was thinking last night how Philippa looks like her.
BIB - I totally agree.
Radio Times billed the prog as a Time Team special, with Tony Robinson presenting. There's a pic of him at the top of the page, and it says "Tony Robinson asks if a Leicester skeleton has regal roots".
So it looks as if he was edited out for some reason, maybe so that there could be more footage of Philippa and the wild-haired one. Strange decision on the part of the producer, imo.
They obviously cocked up.
More 4 showed a repeat on Saturday 8pm that was presented by Tony Robinson.
Phillipa, in spite of earning her place, was given far too much of a pedastal. Her tearful disappointment that the skeleton was hunchbacked, even slightly, was obsessive and irritating. The old art historian was far more interesting. Going on about how he was brilliant and perfect all the time is just as bad historically as saying he was an evil tyrant.
Mind you, when I did my history degree, we did get warned as womn about forming fantasist romantic attachments with historical figures
Terrific post. Agree with absolutely every word of it.
I must say, though, I liked this thread even more than the programme. I didn't intend to read all of it, but I got hooked. It was hilarious! thanks for the laughs, everyone.
I think the Radio Times screwed up if they printed Tony Robinson was involved.
Last September C4 announced a seperate series of historic walkabouts by Tony Robinson, while at the same time announcing the Car Park documentary.
And there was this from last September....
I thought it was very good....yes Philippa got emotional, but that was to be expected and the presenter wasn't your normal type {who is he}...but it all still made for fascinating viewing.
And I liked Dr Jo Appleby.;)
Me too...... I'm sure she must have been working up a bit of a sweat under that forensic suit.....:o
Overall I enjoyed the programme, yes probably a bit too much of Phillipa, but the overall quirky nature of how the dig came to take place was typically British in a sort of 'One Of Our Dinosaurs Is Missing' sort of a way.
A more academic reflection of the discoveries will follow in time I'm sure.
I think it was the total glossing over and non-mention of the Titus Regius that niggled me more than anything in programme
Simon Farnaby a comedian and also if you have kids around the age of watching CBBC he will be recognised as one of the actors in Horrible Histories
I didn't notice the credits at the end but wondering if Philippa Langley had some involvement in the production of the programme. It could explain the odd choice of presenter. She is described as a screenwriter so will have contacts in the industry. Did she arrange with a production company to make the programme and perhaps gets some income from the company which would go towards paying for the excavation, there will presumably be some overseas sales though a friend in the US tells me his wife was confusing himwith Richard the Lionheart!
You see, I didn't mind Simon. Hair aside (wild? it was livid!:p) I liked the fact he presented with a bit of feeling and heart, even if he tried a bit too hard to be humorous, which I can understand could seem to trivialise it. As opposed to a serious, academic who recited the whole thing in a boring, monotone factual way. The whole thing seemed absolutely surreal from beginning to end and I was completely hooked!
I would imagine not, as all the extant Cathedrals were nicked by the Church of England post-reformation, and Cathedrals aren't something that get built very often.
Same reason why you don't get lovely old country churches which are Roman Catholic.
Westminster Cathedral is still RC, there are a few others.
I thought it wasn't a bad doc actually - I hope there'll be a more detailed and forensic account of this but perhaps the tone of this would open it up to more people? I shouldn't think there are many who are interested in Richard 3rd so I'm hoping this would have reached more people.
Yes, I felt for the carpark man having his little empire all dug up. He had a look of defiance, as if to say - this is my job, even if there is no car park to speak of, or I end up in a trench!
It seems to may be a case of watch this space. Richard was to be interred at Leicester Cathedral which traces its history to a Saxon bishop in AD 680 and as such was within the guidelines regarding burying bodies close to where they are exhumed. Change may be afoot as according to the news today York wish to claim him for their Minister and have already written to the Queen.