Doctor Who has always been the softest of sci-fi on the Mohs Scale of Sci-fi Hardness. It has semi-SF premises explained and resolved in fantasy ways.
The problem is that lots of the scenarios presented make for good sci-fi, the sort of thing that could be taken forward and resolved semi-logically, but are usually replaced by a hand-wavey McGuffin that the heroes have to get and use at all costs.
It's particularly annoying in classic Who episodes where you can tell the writers have a real interest in certain aspects of science, like genetic engineering or warp engines and then bolt on a story that mostly misses the interesting parts of those disciplines - like androids (or clones) completely indistinguishable from the real thing, dimensional twists in spacetime that can be fixed by waving the right kind of crystal over it, that sort of thing. And yes, the infamous modernwishing really hard type of thing.
And the best sci-fi is all about exploring the human condition - and I think we've had more of that than ever recently, it's just not in your face. Instead of the villains ranting about how terrible and selfish humans are, or the Doctor telling us how amazing he are, we have episodes like The Beast Below, Amy's Choice or The God Complex, packed with interesting things to say about humans without monologuing.
So, more sci-fi please - if you're going to set up a sci-fi premise, follow it through.
Is that fantasy stuff with a human elements?As that seems to be what is pulling girls in...no he fantsy but the human aprt of it.
Essentiall, isn't Twiigt just a love triangle but with a vampire and werewolf ratehr than a high school jock and greaser punk
I was actually thinking more along the lines of Supernatural than Twilight tbh. And that's a show that is IMO much more fantasy as well as even more nuts than DW at the same time. True, even that has human elements (relationship between two brothers). But you can find some of that in most fantasy stuff if you look hard enough. Even in stuff like Lord of the Rings.
But then again I personally have no idea what drives most teenage girls into Twilight tbh. And I actually read the whole series when I was a teenage girl myself and enjoyed thefirst book because it was kind of fun but even at 16/17 I felt that the writing/story got worse and worse with each of the books.
I was actually thinking more along the lines of Supernatural than Twilight tbh. And that's a show that is IMO much more fantasy as well as even more nuts than DW at the same time. True, even that has human elements (relationship between two brothers). But you can find some of that in most fantasy stuff if you look hard enough. Even in stuff like Lord of the Rings.
But then again I personally have no idea what drives most teenage girls into Twilight tbh. And I actually read the whole series when I was a teenage girl myself and enjoyed thefirst book because it was kind of fun but even at 16/17 I felt that the writing/story got worse and worse with each of the books.
There's a superb episode of Supernatural which lampoons Twilight called (I think) "Live Free or TwiHard". Well worth a view!
There's a superb episode of Supernatural which lampoons Twilight called (I think) "Live Free or TwiHard". Well worth a view!
I think I've seen that one. The one thing that I adore about that show is not only that it makes fun of other stuff (Changing Channels) but also about itself (French Mistake and I can't remember the name of the episode that makes fun of the fandom where RPGing is involved).
I think I've seen that one. The one thing that I adore about that show is not only that it makes fun of other stuff (Changing Channels) but also about itself (French Mistake and I can't remember the name of the episode that makes fun of the fandom where RPGing is involved).
I love the one where Sam and Dean find their adventures have been turned into a series of book, and then discover there are "Sam slash Dean" erotic stories online, written by fans!
I love the one where Sam and Dean find their adventures have been turned into a series of book, and then discover there are "Sam slash Dean" erotic stories online, written by fans!
Oh, yeah, The Monster at the End of this Book, that was awesome.
Though it kinda surprises me each year when it gets renewed for one more year tbh.
First post, so please be nice! I just want to say a couple of things regarding sci-fi - firstly that I think good sci-fi is normally a vessel for big ideas and concepts. Take for example the Rebel Flesh/Almost People double which was basically working on the theme of what is it that makes us human and identity etc. (a common motif in sci-fi, see Bladerunner for example). When it just becomes about futuristic technologies and the like for their own sake, it can lose a lot.
Secondly, while it's dealing with often unrealistic/as yet impossible technologies like time travel there is an acceptance that the rules are different from reality. However, despite this, any sci-fi should then stick to the laws it has constructed. Doctor Who can fall foul of this - the whole fixed points in time thing presents a bit of a quandary here, often with rules seemingly changing to fit the plot.
I'm not sure that it's so much about setting the stories on modern day Earth. What would perhaps help Muletts friends is more realistic chat between the Doctor and companion, companions that start with a relatively straightforward family and job, and incidental characters and plots that involve and engage the audience better.
Clara shares Amy's trait of snappy banter. Amy and Clara had weird mysterious backgrounds. We only got to see Rory's dad right near the end. Amy's family were in it for the briefest possible time to play their part in the plot.
Series six was seriously insular - too often there simply weren't any other characters other than the tardis crew to empathise with, and the baby kidnap thing made even that hard work. There was an attempt at making the salvage brothers objects of sympathy, but they established them as callous thieves which made it difficult to then sympathise.
Series one to four had a knack of introducing background characters who seemed like real people that you ended the episode caring about. I don't think there has been enough of that recently.
Didn't like all the grandstanding speeches about how wonderful the human spirit is. But there was a certain emotional connection happening in the RTD era that seems a bit absent.
@someday693 - firstly, welcome to the forum! Secondly - spot on. I agree in every way. I would go further on your second point - it has a tendency to make up its rules as it goes along, with them magically appearing from nowhere when convenient, and disappearing when they'd actually be useful.
There was an attempt at making the salvage brothers objects of sympathy, but they established them as callous thieves which made it difficult to then sympathise.
I don't think so. They established one of them as a callous thief, one of them as a mindless follower that did whatever the callous brother did, and one of them as thoughtful.
Series one to four had a knack of introducing background characters who seemed like real people that you ended the episode caring about. I don't think there has been enough of that recently.
That's purely a subjective matter. I think the last three series have had the standout, nuanced characters that I care about more than ones I'd seen previously. We could each produce individual cases in each series that stand out, so probably best that I don't start down that road.
I don't think so. They established one of them as a callous thief, one of them as a mindless follower that did whatever the callous brother did, and one of them as thoughtful.
That's purely a subjective matter. I think the last three series have had the standout, nuanced characters that I care about more than ones I'd seen previously. We could each produce individual cases in each series that stand out, so probably best that I don't start down that road.
I mentioned in the episode thread about the three different personalities that were set up. Mostly because it passed many people by. For example the stupid tall one was simply thougt to have been a bad actor. So the attempt was there, but not quite pulled off as well as it might be.
I understand what you mean about subjective opinion of characters in the stories. And I don't want to play the example/counter example game. But it is how I feel about it. I like the overall way Moffat tries to get us into space, future, past etc. Rather than modern London. But I do feel his scripts lack a certain something.
One problem with setting stories on modern day Earth is that, over time, "modern day Earth" diverges from the real Earth.
So you,me, Clara, Amy and Rory should have;
1. Been enslaved by a Prime Minister called Harold Saxon and future-humans in flying spheres for a year and then had our memories wiped.
2. Had our planet moved, been invaded by Daleks and then had it towed back to the solar system by the Tardis. (Whilst various very un-scientific things also happened) - we should remember that one
3. We were momentarily changed into looking like John Simm.
4. We witnessed David Tennant lighting the 2012 Olympic flame.
5. We should have seen all our clocks turn to zero for a little while.
6. We should have had some pet black cubes for a year and some of us got heart attacks off them and recovered from them.
7. Some of us could have seen various aliens: Autons, Cybermen, Daleks, Slitereen etc. and various spaceships; Attraxi, Titanic, The Valiant etc.
(I'm sure there are others that I've forgotten, and I haven't dared tried to work out what happened "recently" according to Classical Who - didn't the cybermen invade in 1980 - in a Pat Troughton story ? and if so why didn't Jackie Tyler remember them ? )
The problem with this is that, to relate to the programme, we need modern day Earth to be our Earth (not a slightly different, increasingly divergent one), and for companions to be at least similar to us when they first meet the Doctor. Hence the tendency for reboot devices such at that at the end of series 3 and crack in series 5 (which at least re-booted Amy to be more like us). Of course enough time has elapsed for us not to bother with questions like "Did Clara get to see Cybermen Ghosts during "Ghost hour" (end of series 2) ?" But you can see why setting stories away from modern day earth makes the writers job a whole lot easier - there really are only so many different reboot buttons !
I didn't like RTD's characterisations. I liked Nine for the most part and his almost paternal attitude to Rose. Then we got Ten as a smug (River has nothing on him) wide boy with the fancy motor and trendy hairstyle. David Tennant is a fantastic actor, so Ten could have been incredible. Instead he was reduced to actually having to explain "I'm clever!" Show, not tell and all that.
Then he was inexplicably consumed with love for that vacuum of a place holder for the girls who probably would have dropped out of the Doctor Who audience long before. Easily the least impressive of his companions (imo). I suppose that they could pretend that the super male would whisk them away to a better life because of tru luv., So I stopped watching until she left. No problem.I didn't like the Twilight-lite story and the Time Lord acting like a teen and there was nothing in the plot to keep watching for.
Moffat tries* to be intelligent and to take advantage of the genre he's working for, How successful he is, is another story, but certain sections of the audience not liking sci-fi in a sci fi show is not a reason for him to tone it down.I'm glad he steered away from telling a sub-par 'romance' where the sci fi could be jettisoned completely and the story could be set purely in a hospital, a war, a historical setting, a department store, or a tv studio.
In the early days of the show they had many supposedly educational so-called "historical" stories, where the only sci-fi element was the fact that the characters got into the historical setting in the first place.
They were quickly dropped as the producers found the futuristic and/or alien set stories were much more popular, and I'm sure that would still be the case today. Doctor Whois a science fiction/science fantasy show, and should always be so.
It's not a soap opera!
What made the reboot so popular is that it managed to combine different types of science fiction, and often added a soapy feel to it as well:
Science fiction like "Sapphire and Steel", more fantasy than science fiction.
Classic sci-fi concepts from it's written form, human brains into machines etc etc.
Eastenders.
Over the years it's just being done with less sensitivity and care. This latest series is slap-dash.
Doctor Who has always been the softest of sci-fi on the Mohs Scale of Sci-fi Hardness. It has semi-SF premises explained and resolved in fantasy ways.
The problem is that lots of the scenarios presented make for good sci-fi, the sort of thing that could be taken forward and resolved semi-logically, but are usually replaced by a hand-wavey McGuffin that the heroes have to get and use at all costs.
It's particularly annoying in classic Who episodes where you can tell the writers have a real interest in certain aspects of science, like genetic engineering or warp engines and then bolt on a story that mostly misses the interesting parts of those disciplines - like androids (or clones) completely indistinguishable from the real thing, dimensional twists in spacetime that can be fixed by waving the right kind of crystal over it, that sort of thing. And yes, the infamous modernwishing really hard type of thing.
So, more sci-fi please - if you're going to set up a sci-fi premise, follow it through.
So a story starts out with a 'sciencey' premise but it all gets a bit lazy and transforms into fantasy. Almost precisely the opposite of what Isaac Asimov describes here.
Comments
The problem is that lots of the scenarios presented make for good sci-fi, the sort of thing that could be taken forward and resolved semi-logically, but are usually replaced by a hand-wavey McGuffin that the heroes have to get and use at all costs.
It's particularly annoying in classic Who episodes where you can tell the writers have a real interest in certain aspects of science, like genetic engineering or warp engines and then bolt on a story that mostly misses the interesting parts of those disciplines - like androids (or clones) completely indistinguishable from the real thing, dimensional twists in spacetime that can be fixed by waving the right kind of crystal over it, that sort of thing. And yes, the infamous modernwishing really hard type of thing.
And the best sci-fi is all about exploring the human condition - and I think we've had more of that than ever recently, it's just not in your face. Instead of the villains ranting about how terrible and selfish humans are, or the Doctor telling us how amazing he are, we have episodes like The Beast Below, Amy's Choice or The God Complex, packed with interesting things to say about humans without monologuing.
So, more sci-fi please - if you're going to set up a sci-fi premise, follow it through.
I was actually thinking more along the lines of Supernatural than Twilight tbh. And that's a show that is IMO much more fantasy as well as even more nuts than DW at the same time. True, even that has human elements (relationship between two brothers). But you can find some of that in most fantasy stuff if you look hard enough. Even in stuff like Lord of the Rings.
But then again I personally have no idea what drives most teenage girls into Twilight tbh. And I actually read the whole series when I was a teenage girl myself and enjoyed thefirst book because it was kind of fun but even at 16/17 I felt that the writing/story got worse and worse with each of the books.
There's a superb episode of Supernatural which lampoons Twilight called (I think) "Live Free or TwiHard". Well worth a view!
I think I've seen that one. The one thing that I adore about that show is not only that it makes fun of other stuff (Changing Channels) but also about itself (French Mistake and I can't remember the name of the episode that makes fun of the fandom where RPGing is involved).
I love the one where Sam and Dean find their adventures have been turned into a series of book, and then discover there are "Sam slash Dean" erotic stories online, written by fans!
Oh, yeah, The Monster at the End of this Book, that was awesome.
Though it kinda surprises me each year when it gets renewed for one more year tbh.
I know. And - on a very basic level - there's a serious lack of shirtless scenes from the two main characters!
Secondly, while it's dealing with often unrealistic/as yet impossible technologies like time travel there is an acceptance that the rules are different from reality. However, despite this, any sci-fi should then stick to the laws it has constructed. Doctor Who can fall foul of this - the whole fixed points in time thing presents a bit of a quandary here, often with rules seemingly changing to fit the plot.
Especially the one who looks better without it than with it.
Clara shares Amy's trait of snappy banter. Amy and Clara had weird mysterious backgrounds. We only got to see Rory's dad right near the end. Amy's family were in it for the briefest possible time to play their part in the plot.
Series six was seriously insular - too often there simply weren't any other characters other than the tardis crew to empathise with, and the baby kidnap thing made even that hard work. There was an attempt at making the salvage brothers objects of sympathy, but they established them as callous thieves which made it difficult to then sympathise.
Series one to four had a knack of introducing background characters who seemed like real people that you ended the episode caring about. I don't think there has been enough of that recently.
Didn't like all the grandstanding speeches about how wonderful the human spirit is. But there was a certain emotional connection happening in the RTD era that seems a bit absent.
Yes, we should definitely have more of that on Doctor Who
That's purely a subjective matter. I think the last three series have had the standout, nuanced characters that I care about more than ones I'd seen previously. We could each produce individual cases in each series that stand out, so probably best that I don't start down that road.
I mentioned in the episode thread about the three different personalities that were set up. Mostly because it passed many people by. For example the stupid tall one was simply thougt to have been a bad actor. So the attempt was there, but not quite pulled off as well as it might be.
I understand what you mean about subjective opinion of characters in the stories. And I don't want to play the example/counter example game. But it is how I feel about it. I like the overall way Moffat tries to get us into space, future, past etc. Rather than modern London. But I do feel his scripts lack a certain something.
So you,me, Clara, Amy and Rory should have;
1. Been enslaved by a Prime Minister called Harold Saxon and future-humans in flying spheres for a year and then had our memories wiped.
2. Had our planet moved, been invaded by Daleks and then had it towed back to the solar system by the Tardis. (Whilst various very un-scientific things also happened) - we should remember that one
3. We were momentarily changed into looking like John Simm.
4. We witnessed David Tennant lighting the 2012 Olympic flame.
5. We should have seen all our clocks turn to zero for a little while.
6. We should have had some pet black cubes for a year and some of us got heart attacks off them and recovered from them.
7. Some of us could have seen various aliens: Autons, Cybermen, Daleks, Slitereen etc. and various spaceships; Attraxi, Titanic, The Valiant etc.
(I'm sure there are others that I've forgotten, and I haven't dared tried to work out what happened "recently" according to Classical Who - didn't the cybermen invade in 1980 - in a Pat Troughton story ? and if so why didn't Jackie Tyler remember them ?
The problem with this is that, to relate to the programme, we need modern day Earth to be our Earth (not a slightly different, increasingly divergent one), and for companions to be at least similar to us when they first meet the Doctor. Hence the tendency for reboot devices such at that at the end of series 3 and crack in series 5 (which at least re-booted Amy to be more like us). Of course enough time has elapsed for us not to bother with questions like "Did Clara get to see Cybermen Ghosts during "Ghost hour" (end of series 2) ?" But you can see why setting stories away from modern day earth makes the writers job a whole lot easier - there really are only so many different reboot buttons !
I didn't like RTD's characterisations. I liked Nine for the most part and his almost paternal attitude to Rose. Then we got Ten as a smug (River has nothing on him) wide boy with the fancy motor and trendy hairstyle. David Tennant is a fantastic actor, so Ten could have been incredible. Instead he was reduced to actually having to explain "I'm clever!" Show, not tell and all that.
Then he was inexplicably consumed with love for that vacuum of a place holder for the girls who probably would have dropped out of the Doctor Who audience long before. Easily the least impressive of his companions (imo). I suppose that they could pretend that the super male would whisk them away to a better life because of tru luv., So I stopped watching until she left. No problem.I didn't like the Twilight-lite story and the Time Lord acting like a teen and there was nothing in the plot to keep watching for.
Moffat tries* to be intelligent and to take advantage of the genre he's working for, How successful he is, is another story, but certain sections of the audience not liking sci-fi in a sci fi show is not a reason for him to tone it down.I'm glad he steered away from telling a sub-par 'romance' where the sci fi could be jettisoned completely and the story could be set purely in a hospital, a war, a historical setting, a department store, or a tv studio.
They were quickly dropped as the producers found the futuristic and/or alien set stories were much more popular, and I'm sure that would still be the case today.
Doctor Who is a science fiction/science fantasy show, and should always be so.
It's not a soap opera!
Wrong show.
Just look at this and at this
Best post of the year so far!!!!:)
Science fiction like "Sapphire and Steel", more fantasy than science fiction.
Classic sci-fi concepts from it's written form, human brains into machines etc etc.
Eastenders.
Over the years it's just being done with less sensitivity and care. This latest series is slap-dash.
So a story starts out with a 'sciencey' premise but it all gets a bit lazy and transforms into fantasy. Almost precisely the opposite of what Isaac Asimov describes here.
Well I was actually hoping for a Clara one
Not really expecting a Room at the Top crossover for Children in Need.