(I dispute the headline using "workshy", and the article itslef shows it to be misleading)
Figures show that 20 per cent of those ordered to take part in four-week community projects stop claiming immediately and another 30 per cent are stripped of their benefits when they fail to turn up.
All true, and that was the point I was trying to lead onto. It clearly wouldn't work as, like you say, you would end up with less disposible income in the system and one problem would indeed be the retail sector falling apart even more than it has already.
However If you want a society where there are people at the top with money, you have to accept that you are going to force people to the bottom, and the only responsible thing to do is support them. It is true that there will be people who exploit the system but then, there is plenty of well-off people who exploit the system too.
Again, the point is that there are services provided by the state that are free at the point of entry, and these need to be paid for. Some people do pay more than they take out, it's true, and I'm probably one of them, but there will not be a single person in the UK who doesn't get some degree of benefit from public spending.
I think it's just a pedantic point here, but the NHS is beneficial but not considered a benefit (ie JSA et al)
NHS is not a benefit you apply for, all residents are entitled to use it regardless of salary. Socialized medicine is not 'free money'
The amount I quoted was my monthly NI contribution, my income tax is three times that.
ok I get you, just not familiar with the wording
in some ways you do apply - as if your treatment needs to be funded at another health authority then you live in it has to be approved, and also you could argue about postcode lottery and allocation of expensive drugs.
I know you have been healthy to date but suppose you suddenly (God forbid) got run over and required a stay in ITU and then rehab - stay a month and your entire tax contributions would be in negative. Thats why we pay - its a 'safety net' - which is what benefits are, a safety net for if you need them (like the OP now)
these days anyone could be suddenly made redundant. it could be you suddenly coming down with a physical or mental illness and needing support. would you want anyone to judge you harshly?
This debate always gets polarised into 'piss takers' versus 'genuine claimant' as if there is an easy distinction between the two. The trouble is , it's not as clear cut than that and I think the real issue for most people is the third category of people who genuinely believe themselves to be genuine when in fact they are not. This category by it's nature is mostly made up of people suffering mental health issues.
My friend for example, in his late 30s and hasn't worked for 4 years after being signed off with anxiety. Basically he says he gets anxious and nauseous when he goes to unfamiliar places (luckily though he's familiar with the supermarket and my local pub so no problems going there then).
He has been certified unfit to work by professionals and will tell you how hard it is having what he has and genuinely believes himself to be ill. All fine and dandy but this condition only manifested itself shortly after receiving a large 5 figure sum in inheritance after a previously unbroken 18 years of employment.
He now sits at home all day buying stuff off the internet which sits completely the wrong thing to do for someone who problem is anxiety in unfamiliar settings as it makes him wallow in the issue that's causing the problem IMO. His close friend and even brother agree that whilst his condition is 'real' in the sense as it is diagnosable it's cause and reason for being is easily explained by looking at certain events his life and it's mostly self perpetuated.
Mental health issues are not that black and white. To him, the supermarket and pub are fine because he knows them and doesn't trigger off any panic signals. There could also be underlying issues from the past that have never come to the surface. There's no-one in the system helping him get back into society. That's the problem with this set of people. Of course he will find things to do that will minimise his anxiety.
Maybe your friend is the less extreme case, but you also have to take examples of people who have been broken down by work and increasingly more people off work now because of the heavier work loads due to people being cut from jobs etc. Same money, more expectations, more work. Not everyone is the same and can cope with the same situations. Also, some people experience a series of negative events which aren't dealt with (because they may not naturally like to share their issues with others to talk them through) and build up their break down. No mental issues are self-inflicted unless it's down to drug abuse upon yourself which causes side-effects (as an example).
I could quite happily not work and claim the maximum set of benefits if I pushed for the reasoning that my Autism effects my daily life, causes stress and puts me out of work because I couldn't hold a job. For some it does, but that's where the system fails to help venerable people back into society in the best possible way. Personally, I do not want to be like that or ever want to be. However, if I ever did breakdown; I'd hope my government would support me in a little way that I didn't fall into a huge poverty gap that made it impossible for me to live.
I think it's just a pedantic point here, but the NHS is beneficial but not considered a benefit (ie JSA et al)
True, but it's really just semantics. The NHS is a wonderful thing because it's free at point of entry, and those who can afford to pay a bit towards it mostly for the benefit of others - like me - do so, just like JSA. I'm sure both systems are exploited by the minority. I certainly wouldn't want to see either abolished. Reformed, maybe.
I'm not saying you haven't worked hard, or that you've stepped on people deliberately.
However, have you ever bought a cheap t-shirt from Primark? Cheap coffee or milk from the supermarket? Cheap electronics? Everybody at some point - mostly indirectly and unthinkingly- exploits someone else lower down the food chain with the end result of being in a better financial or material position than they would be otherwise. I know I have. It's sadly unavoidable in the modern world.
I'm not blaming you for this, I'm saying that people should just be aware of it and perhaps make different choices to avoid it if they can, and perhaps be slightly less resentful that the people at the bottom get some of their tax money to redress the balance.
Exactly, if everyone were to live the average standard of life as we have in Britian, the Earth could only support 2 billion people. We have 7 billion on earth so it is neccessary for their to be poverty in other parts of the world for us to live the standard of life we do. Inconvenient but true
Which is why we then give millions back on Comic Relief night out of guilt. When a person's standard of living is at threat, very few people say "well if my quality of life is going down it must mean someone else's is going up so I'm happy", we fight and strike to protect it.
But at the same time we convince ourselves that we've done nothing wrong and achieved everything we have through hard work and ignore the luck factor of being born into a country, family and area that enabled us to get where we are.
in some ways you do apply - as if your treatment needs to be funded at another health authority then you live in it has to be approved, and also you could argue about postcode lottery and allocation of expensive drugs.
I know you have been healthy to date but suppose you suddenly (God forbid) got run over and required a stay in ITU and then rehab - stay a month and your entire tax contributions would be in negative. Thats why we pay - its a 'safety net' - which is what benefits are, a safety net for if you need them (like the OP now)
these days anyone could be suddenly made redundant. it could be you suddenly coming down with a physical or mental illness and needing support. would you want anyone to judge you harshly?[/QUOTE]
Absolutely not, and I've never written a post (or spoken, but you wouldn't know that) which passes judgement in that manner! There are people who cheat the system, there always have been and always will be. They are a minority overall. I would never abolish a benefits system, it's vital. I've been to many developing countries and you see true heart-wrenching poverty, not relative poverty as we have in the west. (ie poverty here means you can't buy things, property in many parts of the world means you don't eat for days or shoes are a luxury)
I've also experienced for a majority of my life in the American healthcare system where you pay for service and it's outrageous the way things work. Yet both countries are economically sound with similar life expectancies. The media have done a great job of convincing us we are all about to crumble - this is greatly overinflated.
Mental illnesses are a difficult one, each manifests itself in different ways and to different degrees. There's also the "Pull yourself together" brigade to deal with, those who don't believe in depression for example, because it "didn't exist in my day, you just had to get on with it". Oh and those who assume someone's cheating the system because they "saw them out for a meal and she looked ok to me" Apparently being able to eat dinner equates the stresses of holding down a job.
Work can be beneneficial for some, detrimental to others. It just depends how badly someone is affected. I suffer from an anxiety disorder and panic attacks, however I have managed to continue in my job share position. I had 4 weeks off about 18m ago when I was in a pretty bad way but now my meds keep it under control enough to keep working. However, I don't think I could cope with full time work, on my days off I usually sleep for couple of hours while the kids are at school. Job share is a good balance for me, enough to stop me completely withdrawing but not too much to cope with.
There is no easy answer, what works for one person won't work for another.
I've been on benefits for nearly 5 years now. To put it succinctly, it's crap.
Nearly 11 years on disability for me . I would love to return to work, I even had brain surgery for the chance to live a normal life, more socialising / chances of employment etc, but sadly the surgery didn't work for my condition.
OP I am sorry to hear about your ill health & hope you feel better soon, I know what it is like for people to hurl abuse at you for being on benefits, saying crap like "But you don't look sick". It is about time that mental illnesses & hidden conditions are made more acknowledgeable to GP's & the public.
I suffer from severe anxiety and depression, and claimed the sick for a while. About 75% of days I wake up and feel very terrified and confused at the prospect of going out and even completing menial tasks around the house. I have attempted to go out whilst feeling like this in the past and it has each time resulted in an emotional breakdown in the street and me running home crying.
If someone thinks with this condition I could work a 5-6 day job then thats just stupid. Its a horrible, embarrassing and upsetting thing to have to put up with, knowing you can't keep to many appointments and such cos of the way your head works. I did receive sick for a few months, but now work back in a job where I earn enough to only need to work 1 or 2 days a week, and can choose my own hours and days. If my condition is particularly bad, I can take the day off and the employer understands. I do not wish to work this job forever though, so hope I can properly manage my condition sooner rather than later.
Mental illness can be very crippling and I can't stand people who label the genuinely mentally ill as 'scroungers' and 'cheats' when their condition makes them mentally unable to cope with going to work every day.
Mental illness can be very crippling and I can't stand people who label the genuinely mentally ill as 'scroungers' and 'cheats' when their condition makes them mentally unable to cope with going to work every day.
But again it's simple not true that there is an easy way for anyone to tell the difference between those that truely can't work and those that can (many of which may believe they are in the former category).
The trouble with mental health issues and getting the general public to understand them in many fold.
1) As you've said, if it's invisible there is no instant understanding and full explanantion have to be given.
2) It makes it easier to fake as long as you know the symptons. I'm pretty sure anyone could get a medical diagnosis of clinical depression by by going on the NHS direct website and repeating the symptons to their GP.
3) Many of the conditions seem to be amplifacations of normal human emotions like anxiety or depression. A 'normal' person can't feel a bit 'Downs Syndromed' but they do feel anxious and depressed at times.
With those three thing at play you are fighting a losing battle if you ever expect mental health to be taken as seriously as physical health.
I have periods where I just cannot work - sometimes can't even get out of bed. I don't claim benefits as can usually make ends meet in the short term . When I'm well enough I can work 40 hours a week if the shifts are there. However it makes it hard to get a job
Depression is an invisible illness, made worse by the attitudes of others; the number of people posting Deadmaus should kill himslef was shocking.
And not everyone is in the same situation.
And from what I can figure out, if I did try to claim I would get nothing.
It also bugs me how the word 'handout' has replaced benefits, 'workshy' has replaced unemployed.
People bang on about fraudulent claims, yet they are a small precentage of the costs of benefits. The benefit system can be exploited - and without breaking the law.
But with the prevailing attitude and the current changes, we won't have to worry about a benefits culture for long. They will be difficult to get.
But again it's simple not true that there is an easy way for anyone to tell the difference between those that truely can't work and those that can (many of which may believe they are in the former category).
The trouble with mental health issues and getting the general public to understand them in many fold.
1) As you've said, if it's invisible there is no instant understanding and full explanantion have to be given.
2) It makes it easier to fake as long as you know the symptons. I'm pretty sure anyone could get a medical diagnosis of clinical depression by by going on the NHS direct website and repeating the symptons to their GP.
3) Many of the conditions seem to be amplifacations of normal human emotions like anxiety or depression. A 'normal' person can't feel a bit 'Downs Syndromed' but they do feel anxious and depressed at times.
With those three thing at play you are fighting a losing battle if you ever expect mental health to be taken as seriously as physical health.
It seems like your trying to imply mental health problems arnt as important as physical ones .
I agree someone could get a diagnosis from their doctor by repeating the symptoms, however the process the ESA put you through is quite hard, lots of people get told after the mental assesment that they are fit for work.
You seem to think you can just tell your doctor your depressed and you can forever claim sickness benefits. Its the same amount as JSA anyway, and if your not ill only the most brainless of people would try and pretend they were to claim ESA. Its much easier to just claim JSA.
Regarding work, working hours/wages: Has anyone on here watched Zeitgeist 3 the addendum? Its a docu/film. I watched it this morning and it really made me think about how the world could be run in such a different way and people worldwide could be working shorter hours and working for the good of all rather than a global economic system run for the big banks and the few. Whether you choose to watch it or not we can all agree the world is not in a good state, we are lucky in the uk so can tend to forget that. Many wars and fighting are going on as we speak, poverty is wide spread in many countries yet food is availabe to all. Something is wrong. Theres one planet, we should look after it. Sometimes that which we call progress is questionable though im not against positive progress
It is available to watch on the net for free or from a torrent. If you havent seen it i would recomend it, even if you dont agree with its views on the origins of religion
(I dispute the headline using "workshy", and the article itslef shows it to be misleading)
Maybe I was on a completely different scheme, but I spent six months last year willing trying to get on a 'work placement', which I luckily got at Tesco for a month after going for at least eight places at various businesses.
I don't see how forcing everyone into a guaranteed slot would be remotely feasible.
It seems like your trying to imply mental health problems arnt as important as physical ones .
Then you didn't read my post properly. It wasn't what I 'think' but reasons as to why the general population/society will always easily more understand physical disabilities than mental ones.
Then you didn't read my post properly. It wasn't what I 'think' but reasons as to why the general population/society will always easily more understand physical disabilities than mental ones.
Ok, I apologise I agree that society in general finds physical health problems easier to understand and IMO people with these ailments get more sympathy aswell
When I spoke to my doctor, about my health, first thing he asked, where do I work
Asda, and his reply, that explains alot, alot of his patients who come to him with stress related problems, he has found out, we all work in supermarkets, so long shifts over a number of years arent good for you
And now I have a problem with my right foot, which maybe down to me sitting at checkouts all day, and as a lst resort, I will only take a sick line when I really need it
I have been off work on the sick since the middle of November i am lucky that i get paid full wages for 6 months then half wages for the other 6 months!
I suffer with mild depression,severe stress and anxiety due to the loss of my dad two and a half years ago.I have tried to sign off once but decided to not go back for the next appointment.Im on JSA and get treated like s**t by jobcentre.However because i have such career dreams of working with animals i dont want to throw my dreams away,i wanna keep hoping that the perfect job will come along and hopefully ill be free of my conditions.The jobcentre threaten me with work programme even though i send my cv and do everything thats required of me but employers dont wanna know due to my conditions.
I was waiting for someone like you to crop up. Surprised it took this long, to be honest! Hope you feel better about yourself now you've got what bothers you off your chest.
Can I ask, have you ever been mentally ill or been close to anyone who is mentally ill?
They've no idea what they're talking about to be honest. I know someone who suffers from periods of 'darkness' and when you're like this, you're unemployable.
Most people don't have an issue with benefits for the genuine, it's with the pisstakers.
Sickness benefit fraud runs at something like 0.5% whilst disability benefits fraud runs at something like 0.3%. These figures have been largely static for years.
I know that the national media would like us to believe that all of us law abiding, tax paying, healthy citizens are being ripped off by people who don't deserve our help but it simply isn';t true.
The changes to the benefits system amount to an assault on sick and disabled people. 85% of claimants fail their medical with Atos, the contractors paid to assess claimants eligibility. Almost all of these decisions get overturned on appeal.
Comments
Half of the workshy would give up their benefits rather than get out of bed]
(I dispute the headline using "workshy", and the article itslef shows it to be misleading)
NHS is not a benefit you apply for, all residents are entitled to use it regardless of salary. Socialized medicine is not 'free money'
The amount I quoted was my monthly NI contribution, my income tax is three times that.
I think it's just a pedantic point here, but the NHS is beneficial but not considered a benefit (ie JSA et al)
ok I get you, just not familiar with the wording
in some ways you do apply - as if your treatment needs to be funded at another health authority then you live in it has to be approved, and also you could argue about postcode lottery and allocation of expensive drugs.
I know you have been healthy to date but suppose you suddenly (God forbid) got run over and required a stay in ITU and then rehab - stay a month and your entire tax contributions would be in negative. Thats why we pay - its a 'safety net' - which is what benefits are, a safety net for if you need them (like the OP now)
these days anyone could be suddenly made redundant. it could be you suddenly coming down with a physical or mental illness and needing support. would you want anyone to judge you harshly?
Well done!
Maybe your friend is the less extreme case, but you also have to take examples of people who have been broken down by work and increasingly more people off work now because of the heavier work loads due to people being cut from jobs etc. Same money, more expectations, more work. Not everyone is the same and can cope with the same situations. Also, some people experience a series of negative events which aren't dealt with (because they may not naturally like to share their issues with others to talk them through) and build up their break down. No mental issues are self-inflicted unless it's down to drug abuse upon yourself which causes side-effects (as an example).
I could quite happily not work and claim the maximum set of benefits if I pushed for the reasoning that my Autism effects my daily life, causes stress and puts me out of work because I couldn't hold a job. For some it does, but that's where the system fails to help venerable people back into society in the best possible way. Personally, I do not want to be like that or ever want to be. However, if I ever did breakdown; I'd hope my government would support me in a little way that I didn't fall into a huge poverty gap that made it impossible for me to live.
True, but it's really just semantics. The NHS is a wonderful thing because it's free at point of entry, and those who can afford to pay a bit towards it mostly for the benefit of others - like me - do so, just like JSA. I'm sure both systems are exploited by the minority. I certainly wouldn't want to see either abolished. Reformed, maybe.
Exactly, if everyone were to live the average standard of life as we have in Britian, the Earth could only support 2 billion people. We have 7 billion on earth so it is neccessary for their to be poverty in other parts of the world for us to live the standard of life we do. Inconvenient but true
Which is why we then give millions back on Comic Relief night out of guilt. When a person's standard of living is at threat, very few people say "well if my quality of life is going down it must mean someone else's is going up so I'm happy", we fight and strike to protect it.
But at the same time we convince ourselves that we've done nothing wrong and achieved everything we have through hard work and ignore the luck factor of being born into a country, family and area that enabled us to get where we are.
Work can be beneneficial for some, detrimental to others. It just depends how badly someone is affected. I suffer from an anxiety disorder and panic attacks, however I have managed to continue in my job share position. I had 4 weeks off about 18m ago when I was in a pretty bad way but now my meds keep it under control enough to keep working. However, I don't think I could cope with full time work, on my days off I usually sleep for couple of hours while the kids are at school. Job share is a good balance for me, enough to stop me completely withdrawing but not too much to cope with.
There is no easy answer, what works for one person won't work for another.
Nearly 11 years on disability for me
OP I am sorry to hear about your ill health & hope you feel better soon, I know what it is like for people to hurl abuse at you for being on benefits, saying crap like "But you don't look sick". It is about time that mental illnesses & hidden conditions are made more acknowledgeable to GP's & the public.
If someone thinks with this condition I could work a 5-6 day job then thats just stupid. Its a horrible, embarrassing and upsetting thing to have to put up with, knowing you can't keep to many appointments and such cos of the way your head works. I did receive sick for a few months, but now work back in a job where I earn enough to only need to work 1 or 2 days a week, and can choose my own hours and days. If my condition is particularly bad, I can take the day off and the employer understands. I do not wish to work this job forever though, so hope I can properly manage my condition sooner rather than later.
Mental illness can be very crippling and I can't stand people who label the genuinely mentally ill as 'scroungers' and 'cheats' when their condition makes them mentally unable to cope with going to work every day.
But again it's simple not true that there is an easy way for anyone to tell the difference between those that truely can't work and those that can (many of which may believe they are in the former category).
The trouble with mental health issues and getting the general public to understand them in many fold.
1) As you've said, if it's invisible there is no instant understanding and full explanantion have to be given.
2) It makes it easier to fake as long as you know the symptons. I'm pretty sure anyone could get a medical diagnosis of clinical depression by by going on the NHS direct website and repeating the symptons to their GP.
3) Many of the conditions seem to be amplifacations of normal human emotions like anxiety or depression. A 'normal' person can't feel a bit 'Downs Syndromed' but they do feel anxious and depressed at times.
With those three thing at play you are fighting a losing battle if you ever expect mental health to be taken as seriously as physical health.
Depression is an invisible illness, made worse by the attitudes of others; the number of people posting Deadmaus should kill himslef was shocking.
And not everyone is in the same situation.
And from what I can figure out, if I did try to claim I would get nothing.
It also bugs me how the word 'handout' has replaced benefits, 'workshy' has replaced unemployed.
People bang on about fraudulent claims, yet they are a small precentage of the costs of benefits. The benefit system can be exploited - and without breaking the law.
But with the prevailing attitude and the current changes, we won't have to worry about a benefits culture for long. They will be difficult to get.
It seems like your trying to imply mental health problems arnt as important as physical ones
I agree someone could get a diagnosis from their doctor by repeating the symptoms, however the process the ESA put you through is quite hard, lots of people get told after the mental assesment that they are fit for work.
You seem to think you can just tell your doctor your depressed and you can forever claim sickness benefits. Its the same amount as JSA anyway, and if your not ill only the most brainless of people would try and pretend they were to claim ESA. Its much easier to just claim JSA.
It is available to watch on the net for free or from a torrent. If you havent seen it i would recomend it, even if you dont agree with its views on the origins of religion
Maybe I was on a completely different scheme, but I spent six months last year willing trying to get on a 'work placement', which I luckily got at Tesco for a month after going for at least eight places at various businesses.
I don't see how forcing everyone into a guaranteed slot would be remotely feasible.
Then you didn't read my post properly. It wasn't what I 'think' but reasons as to why the general population/society will always easily more understand physical disabilities than mental ones.
Ok, I apologise
Asda, and his reply, that explains alot, alot of his patients who come to him with stress related problems, he has found out, we all work in supermarkets, so long shifts over a number of years arent good for you
And now I have a problem with my right foot, which maybe down to me sitting at checkouts all day, and as a lst resort, I will only take a sick line when I really need it
They've no idea what they're talking about to be honest. I know someone who suffers from periods of 'darkness' and when you're like this, you're unemployable.
Sickness benefit fraud runs at something like 0.5% whilst disability benefits fraud runs at something like 0.3%. These figures have been largely static for years.
I know that the national media would like us to believe that all of us law abiding, tax paying, healthy citizens are being ripped off by people who don't deserve our help but it simply isn';t true.
The changes to the benefits system amount to an assault on sick and disabled people. 85% of claimants fail their medical with Atos, the contractors paid to assess claimants eligibility. Almost all of these decisions get overturned on appeal.