Well BT Vision currently supply them with their vision+boxes as most people have their routers in a separate room from their tv. also Talk Talk I believe install them (if needed) with their TV system.
So to get these linear channels (when they eventually arrive) one must be in an infinity enabled area, an exchange which is enabled for multicast, have the correct type of vision box and either be hard wired to the router or hope that the powerline adapters work. Absolutely fantastic.
It gets worse, you also need a tv, electric and at least one eye
Well BT Vision currently supply them with their vision+boxes as most people have their routers in a separate room from their tv. also Talk Talk I believe install them (if needed) with their TV system.
So to get these linear channels (when they eventually arrive) one must be in an infinity enabled area, an exchange which is enabled for multicast, have the correct type of vision box and either be hard wired to the router or hope that the powerline adapters work. Absolutely fantastic.
The above will be the new services first baby steps. It first has to learn to toddle and then walk, before it can run. If current users don't like this or are impatient and just want everything yesterday, on a plate, they'll just leave. Which happens all the time, with all services. It's actually no big deal to run a thirty metre cable from the downstairs to the up. I have two Cat5e cables doing so atm, and you can't even see them. And a 30m Cat5e cable only costs a fiver.
At the moment i do agree there does seem to be a lot needed to get the new services but it is early days.The powerline adapters will still work but speed reliability over powerline adapters can't be guaranteed and this is why BT are only supporting hard wired connections.
A lot of people have had BT Vision and cancelled it due to poor service and reliability issues. I myself am on my third BT Vision contract having cancelled twice before due to tech issues. Taking things slowly this time is the best thing to do especially with billions of pounds at stake. This is a pain for those who have to wait but better to have a service that works for the few that can get it than having a service thats not fit for purpose available to order for anyone.
As far as i have been made aware Its actually 8 meg for each HD stream and 4 meg for each SD stream.
Why dies BT have such high bitarate requirements? Netflix can adapt from as low as 0.5Mbs, 1.5Mbs for Freeview link quality, 3Mbs for DVD quality and 5 Mbs for HD.
BT could have rolled out linear channels, offering the best quality picture on infinity but enabling pretty much everyone to receive the service. It will be years before their linear service is available everywhere.
The thing that I actually find quite amusing is the fact that BT are spending around a billion quid on running two sports channels which some (maybe a lot) of their own customers will not be able receive. If these customers are desperate enough to see these channels they will have to go elsewhere - probably Sky.
I too am totally mystified by BTs approach.
I'm quite happily watching Netflix and Sky Movies live via NOW TV on a Roku, and looking forward to Sky Sports when that arrives soon.
My speed averages 2.5mb/sec, and the quality provided by the Roku is fine.
When the new BT sports channel launches what percentage of landlines will have the required speed / multicast BT demands for its services? As an aside what percentage of these landlines already have access to Virgin media?
Is the information available on which exchanges and areas are being upgraded to the required speed / multicast BT demands for its services and when these upgrades will happen?
The thing that I actually find quite amusing is the fact that BT are spending around a billion quid on running two sports channels which some (maybe a lot) of their own customers will not be able receive. If these customers are desperate enough to see these channels they will have to go elsewhere - probably Sky.
BT's plans are somewhat opaque, they say that they do not want to reveal too much to the competition. What per cent of homes will be Infinity and Multicast-enabled? 70% in July 2013, 90% from July 2014? I don't know but it must be very high for BT to launch its sport channels on IPTV. But if not there may be DTT opportunites though this solution won't currently work for YouView boxes. Through a takeover of TopUp TV it would acquire the ESPN space and it already has two channels itself which it currently uses for Sky Sports so it has some options, though not ideal.
BT's plans are somewhat opaque, they say that they do not want to reveal too much to the competition. What per cent of homes will be Infinity and Multicast-enabled? 70% in July 2013, 90% from July 2014? I don't know but it must be very high for BT to launch its sport channels on IPTV. But if not there may be DTT opportunites though this solution won't currently work for YouView boxes. Through a takeover of TopUp TV it would acquire the ESPN space and it already has two channels itself which it currently uses for Sky Sports so it has some options, though not ideal.
I do agree that we should wait until BT finally announce its proposals . They may have some masterplan which will surprise us all ( retaining DTT capacity is an interesting thought). On the other hand it is BT Vision we are talking about with a long history of promises and false dawns
I do agree that we should wait until BT finally announce its proposals . They may have some masterplan which will surprise us all ( retaining DTT capacity is an interesting thought). On the other hand it is BT Vision we are talking about with a long history of promises and false dawns
I'm not hear to defend BT Vision and Comical Ali is no longer around to do this. I do think BT Vision's experience shows the benefits of going it alone as Sky has done for I don't think BT Vision has gained much from YouView. In fact I think it's been a distraction and has delayed BT from introducing an HD box. But I acknowledge it's early days.
I'm not hear to defend BT Vision and Comical Ali is no longer around to do this. I do think BT Vision's experience shows the benefits of going it alone as Sky has done for I don't think BT Vision has gained much from YouView. In fact I think it's been a distraction and has delayed BT from introducing an HD box. But I acknowledge it's early days.
Agreed. Very early days, they've not even launched yet.
And I'll tell you something thats not widely known - there is a BT Vision HD box out there now, and there has been for quite some time (in testing). But with BT's decision to fully commit to YouView, they will now never see the light of day.
In regard to some of the other questions posed above -
The last update/article I read in Dec stated BT fiber is now available to over 12million homes, and that number is rapidly increasing (ie it was 10m in Sept).
Why such a high bit rate? Because BT wanted to provide broadcast TV quality services as a real alternative / supplement / addition to Freeview, of which many channels have very poor quality picture quality.
Why not provide lower quality bit rates over ADSL? Simple - cost.
These new channels will be delivered via a system know as Multicast, and BT have stated the cost of upgrading their network with this technology is VERY expensive. And as the fibre and ADSL networks are totally separate, to enable both would double BT's costs. And their not going to do that just so ADSL users can just recieve a poorer picture and inferior services.
Percentage of landlines that already have access to Virgin media? For the first 12 to 18 months, the BT fibre roll-out mirrored the Virgin Media network areas exactly. And theres a business reason for that (think about it). But since then BT have spread their net further, including spreading into rural communities. It won't be completed today or tomorrow, but they'll get there in the end.
BT Vision churn - I suspect there will be many current BT Vision users who will be unhappy with the above situation and will just leave. Which is no biggie. Because BTV user numbers are so small this would have no significant impact upon BT's business model and the customer will just move to another provider to get what they want, so nobody loses out in the end.
There are still many things unknown about these new upcoming services, and still many blanks, but I for one am looking forward to the announcements, when they finally arrive.
I too am totally mystified by BTs approach.
I'm quite happily watching Netflix and Sky Movies live via NOW TV on a Roku, and looking forward to Sky Sports when that arrives soon.
My speed averages 2.5mb/sec, and the quality provided by the Roku is fine.
The big thing is that Multicast requires a constant bandwidth - if you don't have it there's no method available for training down to a different bandwidth.
With flash/progressive HTTP streaming as used by the major players you device is pulling the information it needs and if it determines that bandwidth is a problem it has the option of pulling a lower bit rate copy.
There's no efficient way for all BT Vision customers to get their choice of linear channels if it's unicast but if it's multicast then a fixed amount of bandwidth is needed per exchange for all customers, no matter what they want to watch. This enables much better planning of available bandwidth and reduces the load on the network making your general internet access faster.
I too am totally mystified by BTs approach.
I'm quite happily watching Netflix and Sky Movies live via NOW TV on a Roku, and looking forward to Sky Sports when that arrives soon.
My speed averages 2.5mb/sec, and the quality provided by the Roku is fine.
When the new BT sports channel launches what percentage of landlines will have the required speed / multicast BT demands for its services? As an aside what percentage of these landlines already have access to Virgin media?
Is the information available on which exchanges and areas are being upgraded to the required speed / multicast BT demands for its services and when these upgrades will happen?
The services you are using netflix now tv etc are on demand and are reliant on a decent internet connection. BT are launching a full ip television network with HD. This requires more than just a decent connection it needs a full speed fibre conection with all the bandwidth it can get.
The services you are using netflix now tv etc are on demand and are reliant on a decent internet connection. BT are launching a full ip television network with HD. This requires more than just a decent connection it needs a full speed fibre conection with all the bandwidth it can get.
If I may, a question - Will these new services be using adaptive bit rate streaming, or has that not been enabled yet for higher bandwidth users?
The big thing is that Multicast requires a constant bandwidth - if you don't have it there's no method available for training down to a different bandwidth.
Surely it would be possible to broadcast several versions of the same stream and still benefit from multicast?
I apprciate that the issue is moot, in that only Infinity exchanges are multicast enabled.
The services you are using netflix now tv etc are on demand and are reliant on a decent internet connection. BT are launching a full ip television network with HD. This requires more than just a decent connection it needs a full speed fibre conection with all the bandwidth it can get.
Also, Netflix, Lovefilm, Now tv etc are not guarenteed streams. If you staturate your line with other vod or traffic then it will not only suffer but will probably just stop. BTs streams will be guaranteed and will take priority over all other traffic to ensure reliability.
The services you are using netflix now tv etc are on demand and are reliant on a decent internet connection. BT are launching a full ip television network with HD. This requires more than just a decent connection it needs a full speed fibre conection with all the bandwidth it can get.
With the Roku NOW TV Sky Movie live channels can be viewed (including ads)
These not solely VOD as per You View access.
Not HD, but certainly DVD quality.
What goes against this logical suggestion is BT's requirement for new sports subscribers to be in Infinity-enabled areas but perhaps they're being handled differently.
There is some rationale behind this, it would be extremely expensive to enable multicast at all exchanges for the benefit of ADSL2+ customers.
FTTC works differently, it uses headends. In an area where there may be, say 11 exchanges there might only be 3 or 4 headends for FTTC located inside the larger exchanges.
You may think your Openreach fibre cabinet is connected to your local exchange when in actual fact it is connected to a neighbouring exchange several miles away (that neighbouring exchange is the headend).
Therefore BT only need to enable multicast in the headends, so potentionally 1/4 of the exchanges.
With the Roku NOW TV Sky Movie live channels can be viewed (including ads)
These not solely VOD as per You View access.
Not HD, but certainly DVD quality.
And you are quite clearly happy with such services. But DVD quality? At a bit rate of 2.5Mbps? No there not. In fact there not even broadcast TV quality, never mind DVD. But if your happy with it, great!
But with the advent of these new channels, streamed at a bit rate of 4Mbps for SD and 8Mbps for HD, plus superior encoding techniques, and the application of QoS, the quality of these new channels will be far superior to anything available from other services. Apart from, of course, YouView from TalkTalk. And they'll all be recordable too.
But with the advent of these new channels, streamed at a bit rate of 4Mbps for SD and 8Mbps for HD, plus superior encoding techniques, and the application of QoS, the quality of these new channels will be far superior to anything available from other services. Apart from, of course, YouView from TalkTalk. And they'll all be recordable too.
On paper they should look better than a lot of the channels on satellite.
And you are quite clearly happy with such services. But DVD quality? At a bit rate of 2.5Mbps? No there not. In fact there not even broadcast TV quality, never mind DVD. But if your happy with it,
That's a bit of a sweeping statement.
1. The Roku is Ethernet wired to the router to avoid any wifi loss.
2. I'm conscious of any other resources using any of the meagre bandwidth I enjoy.
3. I agree the picture quality at 2.5 mbs on the Wii on Netflix is poor, but for whatever reason the picture quality through the Roku is excellent. No idea the technical reasons for this other than Wii is wifi only.
Anyway all this is a moot point for me anyway as it looks Roku / NOW TV will be the only option for me for the foreseeable future.
I'm just surprised that a significant customer base that are unable to access BT infinity have been presented on a plate for Sky to sign up for NOW TV.
And you are quite clearly happy with such services. But DVD quality? At a bit rate of 2.5Mbps? No there not. In fact there not even broadcast TV quality, never mind DVD. But if your happy with it, great!
But with the advent of these new channels, streamed at a bit rate of 4Mbps for SD and 8Mbps for HD, plus superior encoding techniques, and the application of QoS, the quality of these new channels will be far superior to anything available from other services. Apart from, of course, YouView from TalkTalk. And they'll all be recordable too.
I think you should wait until the linear channels actually appear on BT Vision before trumpeting how superior the quality will be.
1. The Roku is Ethernet wired to the router to avoid any wifi loss.
2. I'm conscious of any other resources using any of the meagre bandwidth I enjoy.
3. I agree the picture quality at 2.5 mbs on the Wii on Netflix is poor, but for whatever reason the picture quality through the Roku is excellent. No idea the technical reasons for this other than Wii is wifi only.
Anyway all this is a moot point for me anyway as it looks Roku / NOW TV will be the only option for me for the foreseeable future.
I'm just surprised that a significant customer base that are unable to access BT infinity have been presented on a plate for Sky to sign up for NOW TV.
All good points you state above, Dionbelmont.
In regard to the current 2.5Mbps that streaming services currently broadcast at - they too look a lot better than the low bit rates they currently stream at, and this too is all down to excellent encoding techniques from their end.
And have you seen the announcement on the 'Online Entertainment Services' forum about Netflix? Their calling it 'Super HD' and 3D services too. So the future of 21st century digital television is almost here. And that future, I firmly believe, is IPTV. No matter who it is provided by.
But above, you make one serious assumption that is quite simply not true. And that is users who will not yet be able to recieve such services will just flock to Sky's Now TV films only service. And all only available in SD only. What, at fifteen quid a month? Are they having a laugh?
And it also has to be remembered that within the next two years, fibre will be available to the majority, not minority, of users. And that includes rural users too.
Comments
It gets worse, you also need a tv, electric and at least one eye
The above will be the new services first baby steps. It first has to learn to toddle and then walk, before it can run. If current users don't like this or are impatient and just want everything yesterday, on a plate, they'll just leave. Which happens all the time, with all services. It's actually no big deal to run a thirty metre cable from the downstairs to the up. I have two Cat5e cables doing so atm, and you can't even see them. And a 30m Cat5e cable only costs a fiver.
A lot of people have had BT Vision and cancelled it due to poor service and reliability issues. I myself am on my third BT Vision contract having cancelled twice before due to tech issues. Taking things slowly this time is the best thing to do especially with billions of pounds at stake. This is a pain for those who have to wait but better to have a service that works for the few that can get it than having a service thats not fit for purpose available to order for anyone.
Why dies BT have such high bitarate requirements? Netflix can adapt from as low as 0.5Mbs, 1.5Mbs for Freeview link quality, 3Mbs for DVD quality and 5 Mbs for HD.
BT could have rolled out linear channels, offering the best quality picture on infinity but enabling pretty much everyone to receive the service. It will be years before their linear service is available everywhere.
I'm quite happily watching Netflix and Sky Movies live via NOW TV on a Roku, and looking forward to Sky Sports when that arrives soon.
My speed averages 2.5mb/sec, and the quality provided by the Roku is fine.
When the new BT sports channel launches what percentage of landlines will have the required speed / multicast BT demands for its services? As an aside what percentage of these landlines already have access to Virgin media?
Is the information available on which exchanges and areas are being upgraded to the required speed / multicast BT demands for its services and when these upgrades will happen?
I do agree that we should wait until BT finally announce its proposals . They may have some masterplan which will surprise us all ( retaining DTT capacity is an interesting thought). On the other hand it is BT Vision we are talking about with a long history of promises and false dawns
Agreed. Very early days, they've not even launched yet.
And I'll tell you something thats not widely known - there is a BT Vision HD box out there now, and there has been for quite some time (in testing). But with BT's decision to fully commit to YouView, they will now never see the light of day.
In regard to some of the other questions posed above -
The last update/article I read in Dec stated BT fiber is now available to over 12million homes, and that number is rapidly increasing (ie it was 10m in Sept).
Why such a high bit rate? Because BT wanted to provide broadcast TV quality services as a real alternative / supplement / addition to Freeview, of which many channels have very poor quality picture quality.
Why not provide lower quality bit rates over ADSL? Simple - cost.
These new channels will be delivered via a system know as Multicast, and BT have stated the cost of upgrading their network with this technology is VERY expensive. And as the fibre and ADSL networks are totally separate, to enable both would double BT's costs. And their not going to do that just so ADSL users can just recieve a poorer picture and inferior services.
Percentage of landlines that already have access to Virgin media? For the first 12 to 18 months, the BT fibre roll-out mirrored the Virgin Media network areas exactly. And theres a business reason for that (think about it). But since then BT have spread their net further, including spreading into rural communities. It won't be completed today or tomorrow, but they'll get there in the end.
BT Vision churn - I suspect there will be many current BT Vision users who will be unhappy with the above situation and will just leave. Which is no biggie. Because BTV user numbers are so small this would have no significant impact upon BT's business model and the customer will just move to another provider to get what they want, so nobody loses out in the end.
There are still many things unknown about these new upcoming services, and still many blanks, but I for one am looking forward to the announcements, when they finally arrive.
The big thing is that Multicast requires a constant bandwidth - if you don't have it there's no method available for training down to a different bandwidth.
With flash/progressive HTTP streaming as used by the major players you device is pulling the information it needs and if it determines that bandwidth is a problem it has the option of pulling a lower bit rate copy.
There's no efficient way for all BT Vision customers to get their choice of linear channels if it's unicast but if it's multicast then a fixed amount of bandwidth is needed per exchange for all customers, no matter what they want to watch. This enables much better planning of available bandwidth and reduces the load on the network making your general internet access faster.
The services you are using netflix now tv etc are on demand and are reliant on a decent internet connection. BT are launching a full ip television network with HD. This requires more than just a decent connection it needs a full speed fibre conection with all the bandwidth it can get.
If I may, a question - Will these new services be using adaptive bit rate streaming, or has that not been enabled yet for higher bandwidth users?
Surely it would be possible to broadcast several versions of the same stream and still benefit from multicast?
I apprciate that the issue is moot, in that only Infinity exchanges are multicast enabled.
Thats stretching things in my opinion. To have several versions of all channels being fed into the exchange might be a bridge too far.
Also, Netflix, Lovefilm, Now tv etc are not guarenteed streams. If you staturate your line with other vod or traffic then it will not only suffer but will probably just stop. BTs streams will be guaranteed and will take priority over all other traffic to ensure reliability.
With the Roku NOW TV Sky Movie live channels can be viewed (including ads)
These not solely VOD as per You View access.
Not HD, but certainly DVD quality.
There is some rationale behind this, it would be extremely expensive to enable multicast at all exchanges for the benefit of ADSL2+ customers.
FTTC works differently, it uses headends. In an area where there may be, say 11 exchanges there might only be 3 or 4 headends for FTTC located inside the larger exchanges.
You may think your Openreach fibre cabinet is connected to your local exchange when in actual fact it is connected to a neighbouring exchange several miles away (that neighbouring exchange is the headend).
Therefore BT only need to enable multicast in the headends, so potentionally 1/4 of the exchanges.
And you are quite clearly happy with such services. But DVD quality? At a bit rate of 2.5Mbps? No there not. In fact there not even broadcast TV quality, never mind DVD. But if your happy with it, great!
But with the advent of these new channels, streamed at a bit rate of 4Mbps for SD and 8Mbps for HD, plus superior encoding techniques, and the application of QoS, the quality of these new channels will be far superior to anything available from other services. Apart from, of course, YouView from TalkTalk. And they'll all be recordable too.
On paper they should look better than a lot of the channels on satellite.
That's a bit of a sweeping statement.
1. The Roku is Ethernet wired to the router to avoid any wifi loss.
2. I'm conscious of any other resources using any of the meagre bandwidth I enjoy.
3. I agree the picture quality at 2.5 mbs on the Wii on Netflix is poor, but for whatever reason the picture quality through the Roku is excellent. No idea the technical reasons for this other than Wii is wifi only.
Anyway all this is a moot point for me anyway as it looks Roku / NOW TV will be the only option for me for the foreseeable future.
I'm just surprised that a significant customer base that are unable to access BT infinity have been presented on a plate for Sky to sign up for NOW TV.
I think you should wait until the linear channels actually appear on BT Vision before trumpeting how superior the quality will be.
IF they are running at the bitrates quoted they will be superior.
All good points you state above, Dionbelmont.
In regard to the current 2.5Mbps that streaming services currently broadcast at - they too look a lot better than the low bit rates they currently stream at, and this too is all down to excellent encoding techniques from their end.
And have you seen the announcement on the 'Online Entertainment Services' forum about Netflix? Their calling it 'Super HD' and 3D services too. So the future of 21st century digital television is almost here. And that future, I firmly believe, is IPTV. No matter who it is provided by.
But above, you make one serious assumption that is quite simply not true. And that is users who will not yet be able to recieve such services will just flock to Sky's Now TV films only service. And all only available in SD only. What, at fifteen quid a month? Are they having a laugh?
And it also has to be remembered that within the next two years, fibre will be available to the majority, not minority, of users. And that includes rural users too.
Because fibre is the future.