An explanation for behaviour is not an excuse for it. You should learn the difference.
Nonsense. You didn't see black people all over the world cutting heads off due to the treatment of black people in South Africa. It's a fallacy of an argument and this desire from Muslims to believe they are different.
Nonsense. You didn't see black people all over the world cutting heads off due to the treatment of black people in South Africa. It's a fallacy of an argument and this desire from Muslims to believe they are different.
My argument is you can't blame foreign policy on why Muslim nutters from the UK are beheading people. Like I said, you didn't see this during the Apartheid era from black people around the world.
My argument is you can't blame foreign policy on why Muslim nutters from the UK are beheading people. Like I said, you didn't see this during the Apartheid era from black people around the world.
Punch 5 people in the face. One of them will hit you back.
I regard myself as a pacifist, but that's not to say I wasn't prepared to go medieval during an incident at the War Museum in Ho Chi Minh City. We all have our breaking points.
We have British people who just want to go and kill Muslims (they exist, I've met some of them). Luckily they have the British army to join.
My argument is you can't blame foreign policy on why Muslim nutters from the UK are beheading people. Like I said, you didn't see this during the Apartheid era from black people around the world.
My argument is you can't blame foreign policy on why Muslim nutters from the UK are beheading people. Like I said, you didn't see this during the Apartheid era from black people around the world.
Because that involved a completely different set of people.
Well, it involved militant Islamists. And they give one reason for their actions as Western foreign policy. Which doesn't of course excuse them in any way.
Well, it involved militant Islamists. And they give one reason for their actions as Western foreign policy. Which doesn't of course excuse them in any way.
Punch 5 people in the face. One of them will hit you back.
I regard myself as a pacifist, but that's not to say I wasn't prepared to go medieval during an incident at the War Museum in Ho Chi Minh City. We all have our breaking points.
We have British people who just want to go and kill Muslims (they exist, I've met some of them). Luckily they have the British army to join.
If you have met some who just want to kill Muslims do you think it is possible that they have witnessed what (some) Muslims have done and are seeking some form of redress? This neither excuses or justifies it but like 'foreign policy' it explains it.
Nonsense. You didn't see black people all over the world cutting heads off due to the treatment of black people in South Africa. It's a fallacy of an argument and this desire from Muslims to believe they are different.
You also don't see Muslims all over the world beheading people. Are you aware that there are quite a few million Muslims in the world? It's a tiny minority who support militant Islam and more moderate Muslims suffer far more because of this minority than the rest of us do.
If you dismiss the justifications and explanations that people give for their behaviour then why are you surprised that the problems continue?
Well, it involved militant Islamists. And they give one reason for their actions as Western foreign policy. Which doesn't of course excuse them in any way.
Spain played no part in the removal of Saddam, and got bombed anyway in 2004.
Nigeria is not being attacked by Boko Haram because of its foreign policy.
The Lebanese civil war of 1975 was not the result of Lebanon's foreign policy....
Anyone who thinks that jihad is caused by the foreign policy of the infidels is ignorant and foolish.
followed by the quickest pull out in military history...
Spain plans quick pullout of Iraq
By CNN Madrid Bureau Chief Al Goodman
Monday, April 19, 2004 Posted: 0906 GMT (1706 HKT)
MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- Spain's 1,400 troops in Iraq will be withdrawn "in the shortest possible time," the country's new prime minister said Sunday.
Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said his defense minister-designate, Jose Bono, was ordered to make the arrangements as soon as he had been sworn into office with the rest of the new Cabinet on Sunday.
Zapatero had previously said that he would bring Spanish troops home by June 30 unless the United Nations assumed political and military control in Iraq.
Zapatero said there were "no apparent indications" that there would be a U.N. resolution meeting his requirements by the end of June.
The announcement came a day after Zapatero assumed office from Jose Maria Aznar, who supported the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq last year.
"I gave the order to do everything necessary to bring the Spanish troops stationed in Iraq home in the shortest time possible and with the greatest security guarantees," Zapatero said Sunday in a statement broadcast on national television.
The Spanish contingent is based near the Iraqi city of Najaf, where an uprising led by Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr began two weeks ago. They are part of a Polish-led multinational brigade based in southern Iraq.
The decision to pull them out of the country was Zapatero's first since taking power, having won an upset victory over Aznar's conservative Popular Party in last month's parliamentary elections.
It is an abrupt reversal of Aznar's policy, which had been to stand firmly by the Bush administration in the U.S.-led war in Iraq.
The 43-year-old prime minister was elected just three days after the deadly March 11 Madrid train bombings that killed 190 people and wounded 1,800 -- attacks blamed on Islamic terrorists.
The al Qaeda terrorist network had threatened Spain publicly for its support of the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, and Spain's National Court has charged 18 people, including 14 Moroccans, in the bombings.
In Washington, the chairman of the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee said Zapatero "jumped the gun" by not waiting to see what steps the United States and the United Nations will take in coming weeks.
"I hope al Qaeda does not misinterpret this, and I hope it's temporary and the Spaniards will be back," Sen. John Warner, R-Virginia, told CNN.
"If they are not willing to stay in Iraq, they could prove that they're still with us in the war on terrorism by sending those Spanish troops to Afghanistan. We need their help there."
White House spokesman Ken Lisaius said: "We will work with our coalition partners in Iraq and the Spanish government, and we expect they will implement their decision in a coordinated, responsible and orderly manner."
Zapatero said Spain would continue to participate in other international peace and security missions.
Spain has 125 troops in Afghanistan, and Zapatero's aides have said he is willing to double that number. He said Spain continues to support the democratic reconstruction of Iraq and will work with the United Nations and European Union toward that end.
He said those measures would be in accord with international law -- an apparent reference to his oft-stated position that the U.S.-led war was not.
Zapatero's comments came in a statement from the prime minister's official residence and office, his first such broadcast as prime minister. He took no questions from reporters.
In other Iraq developments, U.S. troop deaths in Iraq reached 700, with 504 killed in combat, on Sunday as the military added 11 American casualties to the war's death toll. (Full story)
You also don't see Muslims all over the world beheading people. Are you aware that there are quite a few million Muslims in the world? It's a tiny minority who support militant Islam and more moderate Muslims suffer far more because of this minority than the rest of us do.
If you dismiss the justifications and explanations that people give for their behaviour then why are you surprised that the problems continue?
World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S. http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf
Pew Research (2010): 55% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hezbollah
30% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hezbollah
45% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hezbollah (26% negative)
43% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hezbollah (30% negative) http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/
Pew Research (2010): 60% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hamas (34% negative).
49% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hamas (48% negative)
49% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hamas (25% negative)
39% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hamas (33% negative) http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/
Pew Research (2007): 26% of younger Muslims in America believe suicide bombings are justified.
35% of young Muslims in Britain believe suicide bombings are justified (24% overall).
42% of young Muslims in France believe suicide bombings are justified (35% overall).
22% of young Muslims in Germany believe suicide bombings are justified.(13% overall).
29% of young Muslims in Spain believe suicide bombings are justified.(25% overall). http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=60
Spain played no part in the removal of Saddam, and got bombed anyway in 2004.
Nigeria is not being attacked by Boko Haram because of its foreign policy.
The Lebanese civil war of 1975 was not the result of Lebanon's foreign policy....
Anyone who thinks that jihad is caused by the foreign policy of the infidels is ignorant and foolish.
And this is a weak argument indeed. The person you're replying to did not try and claim that every problem in the world was down to the foreign policy of the nation having it.
Spain played no part in the removal of Saddam, and got bombed anyway in 2004.
Nigeria is not being attacked by Boko Haram because of its foreign policy.
The Lebanese civil war of 1975 was not the result of Lebanon's foreign policy....
Anyone who thinks that jihad is caused by the foreign policy of the infidels is ignorant and foolish.
So you give absolutely zero credence to the idea that us invading countries, bombing them and killing tens or hundreds of thousands of people might make them angry and vengeful towards us? Ok then.
If you have met some who just want to kill Muslims do you think it is possible that they have witnessed what (some) Muslims have done and are seeking some form of redress? This neither excuses or justifies it but like 'foreign policy' it explains it.
Perhaps the West shouldn't have been messing around in the middle east for the 20th century?
This country wasn't attacted until after we joined American in their invasion of Afghanistan. 9/11 had nothing to do with us.
Perhaps the West shouldn't have been messing around in the middle east for the 20th century?
This country wasn't attacted until after we joined American in their invasion of Afghanistan. 9/11 had nothing to do with us.
A number of UK citizens were killed in New York
This country was attacked when Salman Rushdie wrote a book.
The courts of Iran claimed jurisdiction over the UK and passed a death sentence on Rushdie. Tens of thousands of moderate, peace-loving muslims took to the streets to volunteer for the chance to carry out the sentence.
So you give absolutely zero credence to the idea that us invading countries, bombing them and killing tens or hundreds of thousands of people might make them angry and vengeful towards us? Ok then.
The removal of Saddam was popular in Iraq, just as the removal of Gaddafi was popular in Libya and the removal of Mubarak was popular in Egypt. As for Afghanistan, the Northern Alliance of Afghan tribes did most of the fighting in 2001; the US provided air support. People only got "angry and vengeful" when we tried to introduce democracy.
The removal of Saddam was popular in Iraq, just as the removal of Gaddafi was popular in Libya and the removal of Mubarak was popular in Egypt. As for Afghanistan, the Northern Alliance of Afghan tribes did most of the fighting in 2001; the US provided air support. People only got "angry and vengeful" when we tried to introduce democracy.
So you're just playing the old colonial "we're more civilised than them" nonsense.
Comments
You're right - it's just a lazy phrase which means nothing.
As long as it doesn't become our equivalent of "un-American"
What excuse do you give the Americans?
My argument is you can't blame foreign policy on why Muslim nutters from the UK are beheading people. Like I said, you didn't see this during the Apartheid era from black people around the world.
Punch 5 people in the face. One of them will hit you back.
I regard myself as a pacifist, but that's not to say I wasn't prepared to go medieval during an incident at the War Museum in Ho Chi Minh City. We all have our breaking points.
We have British people who just want to go and kill Muslims (they exist, I've met some of them). Luckily they have the British army to join.
Why do you think that they do it then?
(Hint: They tell us pretty often.)
Because that involved a completely different set of people.
Well, it involved militant Islamists. And they give one reason for their actions as Western foreign policy. Which doesn't of course excuse them in any way.
Doesn't excuse us (the West) either.
If you have met some who just want to kill Muslims do you think it is possible that they have witnessed what (some) Muslims have done and are seeking some form of redress? This neither excuses or justifies it but like 'foreign policy' it explains it.
You also don't see Muslims all over the world beheading people. Are you aware that there are quite a few million Muslims in the world? It's a tiny minority who support militant Islam and more moderate Muslims suffer far more because of this minority than the rest of us do.
If you dismiss the justifications and explanations that people give for their behaviour then why are you surprised that the problems continue?
Spain played no part in the removal of Saddam, and got bombed anyway in 2004.
Nigeria is not being attacked by Boko Haram because of its foreign policy.
The Lebanese civil war of 1975 was not the result of Lebanon's foreign policy....
Anyone who thinks that jihad is caused by the foreign policy of the infidels is ignorant and foolish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Madrid_train_bombings - march 2004
followed by the quickest pull out in military history...
Spain plans quick pullout of Iraq
By CNN Madrid Bureau Chief Al Goodman
Monday, April 19, 2004 Posted: 0906 GMT (1706 HKT)
MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- Spain's 1,400 troops in Iraq will be withdrawn "in the shortest possible time," the country's new prime minister said Sunday.
Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said his defense minister-designate, Jose Bono, was ordered to make the arrangements as soon as he had been sworn into office with the rest of the new Cabinet on Sunday.
Zapatero had previously said that he would bring Spanish troops home by June 30 unless the United Nations assumed political and military control in Iraq.
Zapatero said there were "no apparent indications" that there would be a U.N. resolution meeting his requirements by the end of June.
The announcement came a day after Zapatero assumed office from Jose Maria Aznar, who supported the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq last year.
"I gave the order to do everything necessary to bring the Spanish troops stationed in Iraq home in the shortest time possible and with the greatest security guarantees," Zapatero said Sunday in a statement broadcast on national television.
The Spanish contingent is based near the Iraqi city of Najaf, where an uprising led by Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr began two weeks ago. They are part of a Polish-led multinational brigade based in southern Iraq.
The decision to pull them out of the country was Zapatero's first since taking power, having won an upset victory over Aznar's conservative Popular Party in last month's parliamentary elections.
It is an abrupt reversal of Aznar's policy, which had been to stand firmly by the Bush administration in the U.S.-led war in Iraq.
The 43-year-old prime minister was elected just three days after the deadly March 11 Madrid train bombings that killed 190 people and wounded 1,800 -- attacks blamed on Islamic terrorists.
The al Qaeda terrorist network had threatened Spain publicly for its support of the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, and Spain's National Court has charged 18 people, including 14 Moroccans, in the bombings.
In Washington, the chairman of the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee said Zapatero "jumped the gun" by not waiting to see what steps the United States and the United Nations will take in coming weeks.
"I hope al Qaeda does not misinterpret this, and I hope it's temporary and the Spaniards will be back," Sen. John Warner, R-Virginia, told CNN.
"If they are not willing to stay in Iraq, they could prove that they're still with us in the war on terrorism by sending those Spanish troops to Afghanistan. We need their help there."
White House spokesman Ken Lisaius said: "We will work with our coalition partners in Iraq and the Spanish government, and we expect they will implement their decision in a coordinated, responsible and orderly manner."
Zapatero said Spain would continue to participate in other international peace and security missions.
Spain has 125 troops in Afghanistan, and Zapatero's aides have said he is willing to double that number. He said Spain continues to support the democratic reconstruction of Iraq and will work with the United Nations and European Union toward that end.
He said those measures would be in accord with international law -- an apparent reference to his oft-stated position that the U.S.-led war was not.
Zapatero's comments came in a statement from the prime minister's official residence and office, his first such broadcast as prime minister. He took no questions from reporters.
In other Iraq developments, U.S. troop deaths in Iraq reached 700, with 504 killed in combat, on Sunday as the military added 11 American casualties to the war's death toll. (Full story)
Ah, the "tiny minority"
And this is a weak argument indeed. The person you're replying to did not try and claim that every problem in the world was down to the foreign policy of the nation having it.
So you give absolutely zero credence to the idea that us invading countries, bombing them and killing tens or hundreds of thousands of people might make them angry and vengeful towards us? Ok then.
Perhaps the West shouldn't have been messing around in the middle east for the 20th century?
This country wasn't attacted until after we joined American in their invasion of Afghanistan. 9/11 had nothing to do with us.
Exactly. A tiny minority. That wall of surveys doesn't even support that argument you're trying to make.
A number of UK citizens were killed in New York
This country was attacked when Salman Rushdie wrote a book.
The courts of Iran claimed jurisdiction over the UK and passed a death sentence on Rushdie. Tens of thousands of moderate, peace-loving muslims took to the streets to volunteer for the chance to carry out the sentence.
The removal of Saddam was popular in Iraq, just as the removal of Gaddafi was popular in Libya and the removal of Mubarak was popular in Egypt. As for Afghanistan, the Northern Alliance of Afghan tribes did most of the fighting in 2001; the US provided air support. People only got "angry and vengeful" when we tried to introduce democracy.
So you're just playing the old colonial "we're more civilised than them" nonsense.