Your first statement is just a sly dig at a lady who chooses not to conform to the socially accepted standard of beauty,you are focusing entirely on her looks and this is the very essence of discrimination.
Your earlier argument was that younger women should not change or alter their natural beauty by having surgical enhancements. But when they are older and nature renders them unsightly( in your view) you think they should embrace being UNNATURAL and trowel on the slap and hair dye.
Again you bring gender into it...
You also appear to be equating natural with ungroomed/scruffy. They have not been the same thing since we invented the tools to take care of ourselves as most people do.
How many women do you think I would attract if I walked around with my hair looking like that? And when I looked in the mirror I think the reason for my lack of success with the opposite sex would be abundantly clear to me.
Grey hair past the shoulders doesn't look good on anyone and particularly not when it looks unkempt...
Why should she receive special dispensation from comment just because she's a woman?
We live in a country where there is a hairdresser within easy walking distance of most people, it's not like she's living with yaks on top of a mountain.
Until both men and women treat the opposite sex with respect things aren't going to change. Yes ladies, that does mean you too.
In my lifetime I've witnessed sexism, discrimination and inequality. Yes there is a large amount of sexism still steered towards women, but there is also a lot of areas where men face inequality and downright abuse from largely women, who should know better.
I can't believe some women (who brand themselves as feminists) who claim that victims of domestic abuse should speak up, family homes should be safe and champion women's rights - then try and shout down male victims of domestic abuse (or try and side step the issue), fathers who get denied child access by vindictive mothers and men who raise issues about men's health. Or in the worst case (I've witnessed this on Twitter) make jokes about male circumcision.
Men and women will always be different. Equality should mean that, equality - but it shouldn't be a pick and choose system, which increasingly seems to be the case these days. The car insurance row? Remember that? Men in a lot of cases discriminated against because of their gender and getting hefty car insurance quotes/rates compared to women. The equalities act which was implemented made this type of discrimination against the law, yet the women (largely) who campaigned for the act - created a fuss about it being unfair that men's rates would be the same as women's in cases where a man hadn't had an accident. You can't have it both ways.
I fear these 'pacts' whether they be men's or women's rights groups are causing a greater gender divide than ever before. You just end up with rows, hurls of abuse and downright school playground 'he said, she said' behaviour.
If I was in government, there would be 2 equalities ministers, both a male and a female to represent all genders. If we have a minister for women, a minister for men should also be appointed.
International mens day has also just started to be recognised in the UK. Yet, women who support international women's day make snide remarks about the men's equivalent that is trying to champion equality too.
Society has made discrimination against women unacceptable, unfortunately a small pact of women have started to try and push man-hating attitudes on others and reverse the situation... doing their cause no good what so ever.
I feel sorry for any one of any gender that tries to tarnish the reputation of the other gender. They are the problem and a menace.
Just some of my observations.
You can (try to) make equality in terms of legislation, but you can't in terms of how the two different sexes think mentally. Men and women think differently (it's all about how the male and female brain works), and until evolution takes its natural course, that is the current situation. It may change in the future, but equally it may not.
ETA. Good post there. Sums it up really.
ETA1. The number of times I've been accused of being a misogynist on DS is countless, just for sticking up for men's rights in today's society. I love women. What I have a problem with, is numerous legislation that favours women over men, IMO. That doesn't mean I hate women.
ETA2. It's a shame that these days, if a man dares to stand up for his rights, he is often dismissed, particularly by feminists and told to grow a set or stop moaning or told to get a life.
This is not completely true because men who don`t conform to the masculine stereotypes are mocked and sneered all the time, if their bodies are not muscular enough, if they don`t talk about sex with girls, if they don`t like certain sports or certain careers or certain things if they like something which is perceived as effeminate instead of masculine.
In the past I'd say I had probably used that to my advantage and while my mates were "talking about sex with girls" I quickly got bored and found a real girl to talk to...
TBH very few traditionally "male topics" hold any interest for me and never have, but I've always been comfortable with that.
Firstly I would like to thank you for your post our views appear to be very similar on many issues and on the bulk of gender equality issues.
I agree with you on almost everything so far except for this
This is not completely true because men who don`t conform to the masculine stereotypes are mocked and sneered all the time, if their bodies are not muscular enough, if they don`t talk about sex with girls, if they don`t like certain sports or certain careers or certain things if they like something which is perceived as effeminate instead of masculine.
Also you are airbrushing gay men out of the picture by saying this, Gay men have suffered as much as women when it comes to the gender binary and patriarchal masculine stereotypes in-fact they are still suffering now alongside women if not more than women even in Western developed countries, we still have high levels of homophobic hate crime in certain areas of the UK, we still have endemic levels of anti-gay bullying in our schools up and down the country despite many recent laws to help stamp it out.
It is still seen as socially more acceptable for lesbianism than it is for male homosexuality, it is still seen as more socially acceptable for two women to kiss and hold hands than it is for two men all because of social conditioning and religion.
Gay men still suffer the constant threat of gay bashings and attacks just for kissing or holding hands of the man they love in public something which women or heterosexuals don`t have to endure.
Also the lack of support and stigma for male rape victims within the legal and medical profession and the fact male rape was only criminalised and recognised in the mid 1990s long after the second wave of feminism, patriarchy hurts men too it damages men too it prevents us from expressing our hurt our pain and ultimately our emotions.
I agree with you on the point that men can change this but the problem is they see it as natural when its actually a social construction they are more resistant to change than women which explains why more straight men are conservative in nature than women and gay men.
It requires men to redefine their understanding of masculinity and rather than follow other men instead be themselves and set an example that you are still biologically a man regardless of whether you fit the socially conditioned stereotype of masculinity.
Its a controversial topic among men its still a taboo to even dare challenge the stereotypes and any man that does is either mocked or ridiculed and accused of alluding with feminists.
I`m an ex MMA/Thai boxer who fits the masculine stereotype for obvious reasons but my views on gender equality and homosexual equality still raise the odd eyebrow among a few men even in the profession but does this stop me speaking out? NO it doesn`t and it never will because I refuse to accept socially conditioned gender roles. If I ever have children with the woman I currently love I will not dress my daughter in pink or my son in blue I will not encourage my daughter to like dolls or my son to like action figures and sports I will leave them to make their own minds up when they are old enough, I will not condition them regardless of gender.
I agree with your points again,and I don't mean to neglect gay men in this debate either.
The only reason gay women are more 'accepted' is because alot of straight men consider them pleasing. Again it is men setting the rules and agenda. I don't know why it is heterosexual men who seem to have by far the biggest issue with gay men,I do hope they will start to accept them more as we are supposed to be a civilised society. I don't understand why straight men have any issues with gay men in the first place so it is difficult for me to comment here.
I agree with everything you say regarding male r*pe etc,it seems by putting women into the submissive sex object role men are being hurt by the role of dominance they selected for themselves.
You also appear to be equating natural with ungroomed/scruffy. They have not been the same thing since we invented the tools to take care of ourselves as most people do.
How many women do you think I would attract if I walked around with my hair looking like that? And when I looked in the mirror I think the reason for my lack of success with the opposite sex would be abundantly clear to me.
Grey hair past the shoulders doesn't look good on anyone and particularly not when it looks unkempt...
Why should she receive special dispensation from comment just because she's a woman?
We live in a country where there is a hairdresser within easy walking distance of most people, it's not like she's living with yaks on top of a mountain.
This is just discrimination from top to bottom. I am not going to go into it again as I fear( well I know tbh )that it will fall on deaf ears.
All I will say is that you are solely focusing on this lady's physical appearance again when it should not matter. I disagree with your assertion that just because her hair is long and grey she has not brushed it I also don't see why she should cut it,to fit in with a stereotypical ideal?
We disagree that this lady looks bad also,I think she is a normal looking woman, If I thought she did look 'unclean' or 'unkempt' then that is an issue with cleanliness and I would agree with you. But I don't think she did.
My original post on the matter stands.
Also this is a matter of gender in the first place,did you not read the link in its entirety?
Incase not after Mary Beard appeared on QT she received hideous online abuse that focused solely on her appearance as a way to demean and insult her.
Men who do not fit the stereotypical ideal do not receive abuse of this fashion. Many male panelists who have appeared on QT are far from attractive and that is putting it kindly.This is sounding like I care one way or the other but I am trying to explain this to you.
You also appear to be equating natural with ungroomed/scruffy. They have not been the same thing since we invented the tools to take care of ourselves as most people do.
How many women do you think I would attract if I walked around with my hair looking like that? And when I looked in the mirror I think the reason for my lack of success with the opposite sex would be abundantly clear to me.
Grey hair past the shoulders doesn't look good on anyone and particularly not when it looks unkempt...
Why should she receive special dispensation from comment just because she's a woman?
We live in a country where there is a hairdresser within easy walking distance of most people, it's not like she's living with yaks on top of a mountain.
Isn't the point regarding Mary Beard nothing to do with being attracted to the opposite sex, and everything to do with being respected as a human and as an academic?
The vast majority of men I come across on a daily basis I treat with respect regardless of whether they are physically attracted to me.
How we treat people shouldn't be dictated upon their sexual attractiveness.
Just my two-penneth worth in this very long thread.
Well that is what feminists are fighting for.
To be allowed to look 'normal' and not be judged or mocked for not meeting a standard set up by the media.
It will 'always be the case' if women let it. It depends if ladies stand up for themselves and their fellow women.
I think the pressure is such from all sides,the magazines,the endorsement of anti ageing products and cosmetic enhancements,the refusal to allow women to be their age and themselves..that one day women will get fed up and there may be a backlash.
It might take time but the way society is going there is now an expectation for everyday women to resemble film stars. if this continues as it has been and as normal women cannot meet the desired standard for all their trying I anticipate some changes ahead.
Isn't the point regarding Mary Beard nothing to do with being attracted to the opposite sex, and everything to do with being respected as a human and as an academic?
The vast majority of men I come across on a daily basis I treat with respect regardless of whether they are physically attracted to me.
How we treat people shouldn't be dictated upon their sexual attractiveness.
Just my two-penneth worth in this very long thread.
Isn't the point regarding Mary Beard nothing to do with being attracted to the opposite sex, and everything to do with being respected as a human and as an academic?
The vast majority of men I come across on a daily basis I treat with respect regardless of whether they are physically attracted to me.
How we treat people shouldn't be dictated upon their sexual attractiveness.
Just my two-penneth worth in this very long thread.
I didn't say it had and I didn't relate the two - it was just an analogy...
My point being if I walked around looking like Gandolf's long lost cousin then people would respond to me differently, compared to my being clean shaven and keeping my hair neat and tidy.
If people think she looks scruffy then that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that she is female... Kitty keeps trying to make this a gender issue when quite clearly it isn't.
I didn't say it had and I didn't relate the two - it was just an analogy...
My point being if I walked around looking like Gandolf's long lost cousin then people would respond to me differently, compared to my being clean shaven and keeping my hair neat and tidy.
Well that is what feminists are fighting for.
To be allowed to look 'normal' and not be judged or mocked for not meeting a standard set up by the media.
It will 'always be the case' if women let it. It depends if ladies stand up for themselves and their fellow women.
I think the pressure is such from all sides,the magazines,the endorsement of anti ageing products and cosmetic enhancements,the refusal to allow women to be their age and themselves..that one day women will get fed up and there may be a backlash.
It might take time but the way society is going there is now an expectation for everyday women to resemble film stars. if this continues as it has been and as normal women cannot meet the desired standard for all their trying I anticipate some changes ahead.
But it may take time.
You've missed one obvious point here though...
I would suggest that most women want to look their best, not for anyone else but themselves. It makes them feel good about themselves and if they feel good in themselves then they come across as more confident.
What is more, it is not just women, men too spend a fortune on their appearance, the market is vast and still growing.
I personally don't think someone taking a bit of pride in their appearance is a bad thing.
That said I have a bad cold at the moment and look like shite..
I notice you have side-stepped my rather long post about inequality suffered by males... I would love your take on my post.
Until both men and women treat the opposite sex with respect things aren't going to change. Yes ladies, that does mean you too.
In my lifetime I've witnessed sexism, discrimination and inequality. Yes there is a large amount of sexism still steered towards women, but there is also a lot of areas where men face inequality and downright abuse from largely women, who should know better.
I can't believe some women (who brand themselves as feminists) who claim that victims of domestic abuse should speak up, family homes should be safe and champion women's rights - then try and shout down male victims of domestic abuse (or try and side step the issue), fathers who get denied child access by vindictive mothers and men who raise issues about men's health. Or in the worst case (I've witnessed this on Twitter) make jokes about male circumcision.
Men and women will always be different. Equality should mean that, equality - but it shouldn't be a pick and choose system, which increasingly seems to be the case these days. The car insurance row? Remember that? Men in a lot of cases discriminated against because of their gender and getting hefty car insurance quotes/rates compared to women. The equalities act which was implemented made this type of discrimination against the law, yet the women (largely) who campaigned for the act - created a fuss about it being unfair that men's rates would be the same as women's in cases where a man hadn't had an accident. You can't have it both ways.
I fear these 'pacts' whether they be men's or women's rights groups are causing a greater gender divide than ever before. You just end up with rows, hurls of abuse and downright school playground 'he said, she said' behaviour.
If I was in government, there would be 2 equalities ministers, both a male and a female to represent all genders. If we have a minister for women, a minister for men should also be appointed.
International mens day has also just started to be recognised in the UK. Yet, women who support international women's day make snide remarks about the men's equivalent that is trying to champion equality too.
Society has made discrimination against women unacceptable, unfortunately a small pact of women have started to try and push man-hating attitudes on others and reverse the situation... doing their cause no good what so ever.
I feel sorry for any one of any gender that tries to tarnish the reputation of the other gender. They are the problem and a menace.
I would suggest that most women want to look their best, not for anyone else but themselves. It makes them feel good about themselves and if they feel good in themselves then they come across as more confident.
What is more, it is not just women, men too spend a fortune on their appearance, the market is vast and still growing.
I personally don't think someone taking a bit of pride in their appearance is a bad thing.
That said I have a bad cold at the moment and look like shite..
You honestly believe that people want to look good for themselves?
I've been hearing that from people for years and I've yet to believe it even once.
They want to look good so that other people think they look good.
The desperation I see in people who are so eager to be good-looking is as hilarious as it is pitiful.
I think there is some truth in saying we do it for other people. Take people who go to the shops in their scruff or pj's people are quick to make remarks about how they would never do that.
Why wouldn't they do that?
Come to think about it why do i do that? I can be sat lounging around but if i need to go to the shop i get changed.
Well making every little thing into a question of political conscience is not exactly the recipe for romance. But if she wasn't neurotically obsessed with her own political views then I don't see why dating a feminist wouldn't work.
Comments
You also appear to be equating natural with ungroomed/scruffy. They have not been the same thing since we invented the tools to take care of ourselves as most people do.
How many women do you think I would attract if I walked around with my hair looking like that? And when I looked in the mirror I think the reason for my lack of success with the opposite sex would be abundantly clear to me.
Grey hair past the shoulders doesn't look good on anyone and particularly not when it looks unkempt...
Why should she receive special dispensation from comment just because she's a woman?
We live in a country where there is a hairdresser within easy walking distance of most people, it's not like she's living with yaks on top of a mountain.
There should be no platform for these people in the modern world and they should constantly be challenged every bigoted step they take.
You can (try to) make equality in terms of legislation, but you can't in terms of how the two different sexes think mentally. Men and women think differently (it's all about how the male and female brain works), and until evolution takes its natural course, that is the current situation. It may change in the future, but equally it may not.
ETA. Good post there. Sums it up really.
ETA1. The number of times I've been accused of being a misogynist on DS is countless, just for sticking up for men's rights in today's society. I love women. What I have a problem with, is numerous legislation that favours women over men, IMO. That doesn't mean I hate women.
ETA2. It's a shame that these days, if a man dares to stand up for his rights, he is often dismissed, particularly by feminists and told to grow a set or stop moaning or told to get a life.
In the past I'd say I had probably used that to my advantage and while my mates were "talking about sex with girls" I quickly got bored and found a real girl to talk to...
TBH very few traditionally "male topics" hold any interest for me and never have, but I've always been comfortable with that.
I agree with your points again,and I don't mean to neglect gay men in this debate either.
The only reason gay women are more 'accepted' is because alot of straight men consider them pleasing. Again it is men setting the rules and agenda. I don't know why it is heterosexual men who seem to have by far the biggest issue with gay men,I do hope they will start to accept them more as we are supposed to be a civilised society. I don't understand why straight men have any issues with gay men in the first place so it is difficult for me to comment here.
I agree with everything you say regarding male r*pe etc,it seems by putting women into the submissive sex object role men are being hurt by the role of dominance they selected for themselves.
I find you very astute
This is just discrimination from top to bottom. I am not going to go into it again as I fear( well I know tbh )that it will fall on deaf ears.
All I will say is that you are solely focusing on this lady's physical appearance again when it should not matter. I disagree with your assertion that just because her hair is long and grey she has not brushed it
We disagree that this lady looks bad also,I think she is a normal looking woman, If I thought she did look 'unclean' or 'unkempt' then that is an issue with cleanliness and I would agree with you. But I don't think she did.
My original post on the matter stands.
Also this is a matter of gender in the first place,did you not read the link in its entirety?
Incase not after Mary Beard appeared on QT she received hideous online abuse that focused solely on her appearance as a way to demean and insult her.
Men who do not fit the stereotypical ideal do not receive abuse of this fashion. Many male panelists who have appeared on QT are far from attractive and that is putting it kindly.This is sounding like I care one way or the other but I am trying to explain this to you.
Isn't the point regarding Mary Beard nothing to do with being attracted to the opposite sex, and everything to do with being respected as a human and as an academic?
The vast majority of men I come across on a daily basis I treat with respect regardless of whether they are physically attracted to me.
How we treat people shouldn't be dictated upon their sexual attractiveness.
Just my two-penneth worth in this very long thread.
Noble, but this will always be the case.
Well that is what feminists are fighting for.
To be allowed to look 'normal' and not be judged or mocked for not meeting a standard set up by the media.
It will 'always be the case' if women let it. It depends if ladies stand up for themselves and their fellow women.
I think the pressure is such from all sides,the magazines,the endorsement of anti ageing products and cosmetic enhancements,the refusal to allow women to be their age and themselves..that one day women will get fed up and there may be a backlash.
It might take time but the way society is going there is now an expectation for everyday women to resemble film stars. if this continues as it has been and as normal women cannot meet the desired standard for all their trying I anticipate some changes ahead.
But it may take time.
Agreed and a worthwhile contribution
My point being if I walked around looking like Gandolf's long lost cousin then people would respond to me differently, compared to my being clean shaven and keeping my hair neat and tidy.
If people think she looks scruffy then that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that she is female... Kitty keeps trying to make this a gender issue when quite clearly it isn't.
You mean like this?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/rachael-ray-haircut-video-mans-3011528
I would suggest that most women want to look their best, not for anyone else but themselves. It makes them feel good about themselves and if they feel good in themselves then they come across as more confident.
What is more, it is not just women, men too spend a fortune on their appearance, the market is vast and still growing.
I personally don't think someone taking a bit of pride in their appearance is a bad thing.
That said I have a bad cold at the moment and look like shite..
Brilliant
I notice you have side-stepped my rather long post about inequality suffered by males... I would love your take on my post.
You honestly believe that people want to look good for themselves?
I've been hearing that from people for years and I've yet to believe it even once.
They want to look good so that other people think they look good.
The desperation I see in people who are so eager to be good-looking is as hilarious as it is pitiful.
I do! Why is that so difficult for you to believe
Why wouldn't they do that?
Come to think about it why do i do that? I can be sat lounging around but if i need to go to the shop i get changed.
Exactly....