i'd class that as just plain rude and inconsiderate for me. he can see Journey is in a state (well, I hope so otherwise that makes it worse) and just tries to make her say please for the sake of just being pedantic. the Doctor can be pedantic like that but not in situations like that to me. it was just rude and not likeable at all for the time lord....
I thought he was actually just objecting to her shouting and pointing a gun at him, and trying to talk her into some semblance of civilized behaviour. It had nothing to do with being pedantic, it was "I just saved your life, so stop threatening to shoot me." Which i saw as a perfectly reasonable thing to ask of her, even if he was very unsympathetic to her.
I'm seeing a lot of negativity about 12 and it's dismaying me, just a bit, because I love this Doctor already. I don't feel like the Doctor, or any other fictional character, needs to be someone I'd like in real life. I don't much care if he's nice and polite, I just want him to be heroic and interesting. And the more alien he is, the more socially challenged he is and the less he understands humans, the more interesting he is, IMO. He is still a hero, even if he does violate human values in the process (such as saving lives by taking advantage of an unavoidable death to find an escape route). I don't agree that he's radically different to the previous Doctors. They have all shown a callously pragmatic and detached side at some time or another. This is an aspect of the Doctor that we all have always known existed, and it's a side that I've always thought would be interesting to see brought to the fore. In many ways, it's the Doctor at his most exposed, with the layers of pretense and whimsey and humany-wumany stripped away so that we can see what's really going on inside his head.
he got a please out of someone who was terrified for her life and had just lost her brother. that whole scene just proved his unlikeability for me. not one shred of care from him for Journey.
that's not how the Doctor acts for me....
Well maybe it's your perspective of the Character that's out of kilter here.
For anyone who joined the party in 1963 or in time to catch Tom Baker - or indeed catch up with the plethora of DVDs and satellite/cable reruns.
It's instantly recognisable. The anti-hero. Colin Baker gave a very accurate assessment of the Character once when he expressed a view that The Doctor was concerned with things being right. Right not necessarily meaning to be nice, or good all the time, but right.
Maybe you need to step back and watch an unfolding drama about the Character and see what develops, instead of stressing that after two weeks they haven't delivered your personal checklist of requirements.
Or not watch, as is you're so busy moaning you've failed to see the storyline is actually addressing these issues you raise. It won't be an overnight resolution though.
Presumably you prefer your Doctors gift wrapped, rather than investing time in a Doctor who himself is an unfolding story. Requiring you watch and comprehend the ongoing storyline being told, beyond the usual monsters from outer space.
Seeing as the Doctor is alien, it's unlikely that he would operate on a human moral code.
I agree. And part of what's interesting about Doctor Who, for me, is seeing an alien perspective on human societal norms and morals, which can be more objective and rational. Take Into the Dalek as an example: the Doctor saved everyone by tricking the guy who was about to be killed into swallowing something which could be tracked to a place of safety. Sure, by human standards it was a callous act, but it did save everyone else and ultimately did no harm. We are shocked by it because it violates received notions of what is 'decent', (taking advantage from a death, deceiving a man who was about to die) but if you analyse it, it was probably the right thing to do.
I haven't found him particularly dark yet,when he got the guy to swallow the pill I thought it was a bit "non-doctorish" not the act but the way he did it.
But overall not so dark and I don't really expect him to get so,at the end of the day they're not going to risk turning off lots of viewers on their biggest global franchise.
He's different from the previous Doctor and that's how it should be so far so good.
"Is Ross here?" "Yeah, he's the top layer if you want to say a few words."
So far he's locked his companion up with some killer droids, he told a man to trust him on the point of death and did nothing to help, and has enough hatred to turn a dalek, of all creatures, into a killing machine!
We're only two episodes in, so many of his defining character moments are yet to come, and he's never going to suddenly turn into a villain, but he's a Doctor with a much darker sense of humour who's got much clearer prejudices than his predecessors, and is willing to be immediately nasty for the greater good.
He's spiky and abrasive, arrogant and moralising. He's getting pretty interesting.
But then, this is an episode about his mortal enemies. He's on edge, he's in the darkest territory he could ever encounter. I'm not surprised his outlook is dark and pragmatic.
He's spiky and abrasive, arrogant and moralising. He's getting pretty interesting.
But then, this is an episode about his mortal enemies. He's on edge, he's in the darkest territory he could ever encounter. I'm not surprised his outlook is dark and pragmatic.
He's spiky and abrasive, arrogant and moralising. He's getting pretty interesting.
But then, this is an episode about his mortal enemies. He's on edge, he's in the darkest territory he could ever encounter. I'm not surprised his outlook is dark and pragmatic.
It'll be interesting to see how that translates to what appears to be a more light-hearted romp next week.
That's a very interesting article. Thanks for sharing it, and i think I'll check AV clubs reviews on a regular basis from now on.
I was particularly interested with what it says about how more of the subtext should have been text. I think that's my one problem with this excellent episode. There's so much going on, so many interesting concepts and moments of character development, that there was no time to make anything more overt or to deeply examine all of these ideas. This is a big contrast to Deep Breath, and a little disappointing, and just makes me feel more strongly that 45 minutes isn't really enough time for a great Doctor Who story. There wasn't enough time for introspection, and too much of the dialogue was delivered in rapid-fire fashion, which is a feature of New Who that I had hoped we'd seen the last of. It didn't seem to give Capaldi the chance to deliver as subtle a performance he did in Deep Breath. We were given so many interesting hints about the Doctor's psyche (which is really refreshing) but it left me wanting more of that.
I guess what I'm really saying is that maybe 45 minutes was enough time to tell a great Doctor Who story before now, but it's not really enough time to tell a great 12th Doctor story, as his adventures are shaping up to have more focus on themes and the psychology of the characters. 45 minutes isn't really enough time for all of that plus a rollicking adventure, but Into the Dalek certainly gave it a good try. I'm not saying it didn't work, because it certainly did, but it could have been so much better, and the show's already gone back to feeling a bit rushed. With one more small change (more multi-part stories) the show could be the best it's ever been IMO
he got a please out of someone who was terrified for her life and had just lost her brother. that whole scene just proved his unlikeability for me. not one shred of care from him for Journey.
that's not how the Doctor acts for me....
That scene really bothered me because he basically got in a snit over her not being grateful enough he saved her and focused on being upset over her brother instead.
I don't buy 'well he's an alien' excuse. He's 2000 years old and spent a LOT of time around humans. He knows exactly why she would be upset and chose to ignore it. That's uncaring and makes him an arse.
I agree. I said in another thread that after Ten/Rose, I was more then fine with the fact that the Doctor 'is not your boyfriend', but when the Doctor is not your friend, that's another matter. 'Dark' doesn't have to mean unpleasant or charmless.
Eleven wasn't as perky as some make out, but I could imagine how excited a child would feel after having him crash in their garden. If he asked me to travel with him - too right I would. I don't want to spend any time in Capaldi's company. I know people want a Doctor that you can't depend on, that doesn't care what you think of him etc, but at the moment he's being not dark, but another four letter word beginning with D.
Yeah that's my issue with 12's characterisation. They seemingly were getting a bit excited over doing something different and have lost the point of the character in many ways. He's NOT supposed to be like other generic moody heroes (he's certainly not meant to be Sherlock!). Instead of making him 'darker' I hope the rest of the series concentrates on making him kinder, more charming, more engaging and actually the hero.
I remember the 'do you want to come with me?' trailers that 9 did. The answer was an instant 'yes'. The answer here is a definite 'no' right now. Tbh it just feels like they've decided mean characters are 'cool' and have gone there with little thought as to why he'd be like that.
Never read or used "AVClub" - are their reviews always that detailed and well written?
Yes, they are. A while back I started posting links to their reviews, but nobody seemed to be following the thread, so I let it drop. The past reviews are well worth a browse through.
And I'm starting a "swear box" - everyone who uses the word "dark" when describing the doctor from now on has to put a cat smiley in the box. :kitty:
Good idea - it's a lazy term that means different things to different people.
That scene really bothered me because he basically got in a snit over her not being grateful enough he saved her and focused on being upset over her brother instead.
I don't buy 'well he's an alien' excuse. He's 2000 years old and spent a LOT of time around humans. He knows exactly why she would be upset and chose to ignore it. That's uncaring and makes him an arse.
That's not the Doctor.
It kind of is - the Tenth and Eleventh would similarly try to make her focus on how lucky she is to be alive rather than dwelling on the disaster, Twelve is just less indulgent about it. It wasn't like he wanted her to be grateful to him, but that she should be grateful for what she has. And what could be more Doctory than that?
It kind of is - the Tenth and Eleventh would similarly try to make her focus on how lucky she is to be alive rather than dwelling on the disaster, Twelve is just less indulgent about it. It wasn't like he wanted her to be grateful to him, but that she should be grateful for what she has. And what could be more Doctory than that?
Sorry but I can't agree. 12s tone is very much 'what are you crying about you're alive aren't you?' whereas 10 and 11 would've been far more sympathetic to her grief. It's not indulgent to be kind it's just basic decency and I do think his predecessors would be genuinely ashamed of him here.
I see 12 as a broken Doctor who needs fixing and that's what Clara is there to do. And that could certainly be an interesting plot line but it does mean that currently I don't like 12. He's a lesser 'man' than those who came before him.
Yeah that's my issue with 12's characterisation. They seemingly were getting a bit excited over doing something different and have lost the point of the character in many ways. He's NOT supposed to be like other generic moody heroes (he's certainly not meant to be Sherlock!). Instead of making him 'darker' I hope the rest of the series concentrates on making him kinder, more charming, more engaging and actually the hero.
I remember the 'do you want to come with me?' trailers that 9 did. The answer was an instant 'yes'. The answer here is a definite 'no' right now. Tbh it just feels like they've decided mean characters are 'cool' and have gone there with little thought as to why he'd be like that.
Great post. This is pretty much exactly how I feel after 2 episodes. Hopefully he will develop from here.
How arrogant of some people to declare 'thats not the doctor'. He is thousands of years old, an alien and has been played in many different ways by many different people. I think what they mean to be saying is 'thats not what I want from a doctor' and extrapolating from that and fact the most vocal complainers about Capaldi so far seem to only use New Who as a reference point 'thats not David Tennant'. Far closer to the truth.
Ten and Eleven were important and great incarnations. They were not the be all and end all. They're certainly not the doctor I knew and loved. And yet I was open minded and embraced their slightly different take on the character. If only the Ten and Eleven fans would extend Twelve the same courtesy. Also. Being 'mean' isn't cool. But being multilayered and complex and having a degree of uncertainty is. And its also exciting. Tennant and Smith had become utterly predictable by the end of their eras. Like Clara. I don't know what the doctor is going to do anymore. And I love it.
Sorry but I can't agree. 12s tone is very much 'what are you crying about you're alive aren't you?' whereas 10 and 11 would've been far more sympathetic to her grief.
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Ten and Eleven would have wallowed in her grief. Twelve doesn't, he's all business. More than that, I get the distinct impression of him analysing her reaction, finding out what kind of soldier she is.
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Ten and Eleven would have wallowed in her grief. Twelve doesn't, he's all business. More than that, I get the distinct impression of him analysing her reaction, finding out what kind of soldier she is.
It was the cocked head and piercing gaze, gave me the same impression. Thought that was brilliant - sent chills down my spine
How arrogant of some people to declare 'thats not the doctor'. He is thousands of years old, an alien and has been played in many different ways by many different people. I think what they mean to be saying is 'thats not what I want from a doctor' and extrapolating from that and fact the most vocal complainers about Capaldi so far seem to only use New Who as a reference point 'thats not David Tennant'. Far closer to the truth.
Ten and Eleven were important and great incarnations. They were not the be all and end all. They're certainly not the doctor I knew and loved. And yet I was open minded and embraced their slightly different take on the character. If only the Ten and Eleven fans would extend Twelve the same courtesy. Also. Being 'mean' isn't cool. But being multilayered and complex and having a degree of uncertainty is. And its also exciting. Tennant and Smith had become utterly predictable by the end of their eras. Like Clara. I don't know what the doctor is going to do anymore. And I love it.
I have to disagree with you on this. I might not have seen all of Classic Who (YET), but I've seen a fair load of it and at least a few stories from each Doctor. And I had no trouble warming up to any of the Clasic Doctors (maybe except for One, at which point you might suggest that that is what Capaldi is a return back to, but the thing is that it made sense for the Doctor to be like that at the beginning of his journey began, before he met Ian and Barbara and everyone else later on. I'm just not sure it makes sense for such a return now 50+ years into the show).
And yes, all of the Doctors have been different, but some things have always stayed the same/similar and furthermore each of the Doctors have had multiple characteristics to them. Over the span of the two episodes we have hardly seen any other side to Capaldi than mean grumpy old man. Which is fun to watch to some extent, but at some point I can't help but feel that he ought to show us some other face as well. And no I don't expect him to have the happy go lucky attitude that 10 and 11 tended to have, but having some moments where he isn't being a total d*** would be pretty great.
I mean, I have seen a lot of comparisons to how he is similarly mean to those around him as Tom Baker's Fourth Doctor was, but I just don't see it so far. I mean, sure, Four was mean quite often, but a lot of the time he was actually making some kind of genuine point to those around him by being mean. With 12 so far i just feels like he is being mean for the sake of being mean and for the sake of comedy. Which is once again fun to watch, but I'd like to see more to the character than that.
I'm not even saying that I don't like Capaldi's Doctor, I do,and he has had some very Doctorish moments (for example that speech inside the Dalek reminded me a lot of One's speech from The Edge of Destruction), it's just that I don't love him yet. And I'm not sure if I'll ever will if all he continues to be is just what has been shown so far.
Also, you make it sound as if Tennant's and Smith's Doctors were totally unconnected to the Classich show, which I have to further disagree on. It's not like the Classic show has to mean going all the way back to Hartnell. Sure when you take him, then Capaldi's Doctor is much closer to him than Tennant or Smith, but 12's characterization is hardly any closer to Davison's than Tennant's was or to Troughton's than Smith's was.
Then again, it's only been 2 episodes and we have only seen glimpses, so I might be wrong in the end, who knows, eh? And even if I am not, I will continue watching, just as I can watch Hartnell's old episodes, even though One isn't necessarily the kind of Doctor I love, because ultimately it is the show that it is the star. And although I found Deep Breath a bit boring, I did enjoy Into the Dalek a lot despite having some reservations about 12's character.
I mean, I have seen a lot of comparisons to how he is similarly mean to those around him as Tom Baker's Fourth Doctor was, but I just don't see it so far. I mean, sure, Four was mean quite often, but a lot of the time he was actually making some kind of genuine point to those around him by being mean. With 12 so far i just feels like he is being mean for the sake of being mean and for the sake of comedy. Which is once again fun to watch, but I'd like to see more to the character than that.
Yes it's the pointlessly mean which I find very unDoctor. His attitude to Journey's grief was cold and callous. That isn't the Doctor and nor should it be. The man is not a clueless idiot when it comes to humans. And if he doesn't care then that goes against who he should be. It seems to have been written more to make a point about this Doctor being a different, moodier character than any real reason and the fact that they keep hammering that home so hard repeatedly makes him unlikeable.
How arrogant of some people to declare 'thats not the doctor'. He is thousands of years old, an alien and has been played in many different ways by many different people. I think what they mean to be saying is 'thats not what I want from a doctor' and extrapolating from that and fact the most vocal complainers about Capaldi so far seem to only use New Who as a reference point 'thats not David Tennant'. Far closer to the truth.
To call it arrogance it really overdoing it there I think. For some, the Doctor, in what I believe he has to be, is at least likeable. Peter's Doctor is nowhere near that I'm afraid. We're meant to be on the main character's side. The show is based around him remember, and if we can't like him then there is a problem. It's a problem on the writing team's part and a problem on Peter's part.
Some on here have said Jon Pertwee wasn't as instantly likeable but from what I've seen of his episodes (including his first), Jon may be a bit serious but there is a twinkle in his eye as he goes about it. He's serious when required but deep down he's still the same Doctor. For Peter, he's not got any of that about him. He's just been plain rude and unlikeable...very Malcolm Tucker-like. I liked the Thick of It, Peter was fine in that, but it's not right in Doctor Who.
David was likeable from the off for many (I took until S3 to properly like him though) and the same goes for Matt. What's there to like about Peter's Doctor. The fact he's mean? That's not a good thing, never has been.
Another thing is that inside two episodes off the top of my head, we did see a lot of different personas within Matt's Doctor for instance. He was zany, serious, angry, fun and heroic. You wanted to travel with him. With Peter, there's only been rudeness and just grumpiness. You don't want to travel with a guy who's like that! Even when he's tried to be funny, it's fallen flat as there's no twinkle effect or slight smile from his Doctor. It's all delivered very coldly and clinically.
It's one thing to me to not like companions within the show (I really hate Clara) as they come and go fairly often, but Doctor's tend to last that bit longer, and to not like them is a big problem. If you can't like the main character of the show you enjoy watching, then it's a big issue. I can't deny that Peter is definitely skilled for the role and Moffat (who I'm a big fan of) is talented to make it work, but I think they've both horribly misjudged it from the off here....
Some on here have said Jon Pertwee wasn't as instantly likeable but from what I've seen of his episodes (including his first), Jon may be a bit serious but there is a twinkle in his eye as he goes about it. He's serious when required but deep down he's still the same Doctor. For Peter, he's not got any of that about him.
I can see the 'twinkle' in Peter's Doctor.
1) His compassion for the dinosaur
2) Despite his initial bluntness with Journey, he does say "I wish I could have done more"
3) His affectionate jibbing of Clara ("keep your spirits up. Clara, Clara, Clara")
4) The excitement in his voice describing the universe and at the thought of changing the Dalek
5) When rejecting her, trying to let Journey down gently by telling her she's kind, nice and "definitely brave".
6) Telling Clara she has a 'good personality' and that she's an 'amazing teacher'.
Bit more subtle, I'll grant you, but I still see a warmth in him. I do see those 'slight smiles' that you talk about, even amongst the less emotional moments.
If you think about Galfifreyan History/Society, it's very restrained and unemotional, with an infamous reluctance to interfere. Maybe that side of the Doctor's upbringing is reasserting itself, especially at the beginning of a new cycle that came from the Time Lords.
To call it arrogance it really overdoing it there I think. For some, the Doctor, in what I believe he has to be, is at least likeable. Peter's Doctor is nowhere near that I'm afraid. We're meant to be on the main character's side. The show is based around him remember, and if we can't like him then there is a problem. It's a problem on the writing team's part and a problem on Peter's part.
Some on here have said Jon Pertwee wasn't as instantly likeable but from what I've seen of his episodes (including his first), Jon may be a bit serious but there is a twinkle in his eye as he goes about it. He's serious when required but deep down he's still the same Doctor. For Peter, he's not got any of that about him. He's just been plain rude and unlikeable...very Malcolm Tucker-like. I liked the Thick of It, Peter was fine in that, but it's not right in Doctor Who.
David was likeable from the off for many (I took until S3 to properly like him though) and the same goes for Matt. What's there to like about Peter's Doctor. The fact he's mean? That's not a good thing, never has been.
Another thing is that inside two episodes off the top of my head, we did see a lot of different personas within Matt's Doctor for instance. He was zany, serious, angry, fun and heroic. You wanted to travel with him. With Peter, there's only been rudeness and just grumpiness. You don't want to travel with a guy who's like that! Even when he's tried to be funny, it's fallen flat as there's no twinkle effect or slight smile from his Doctor. It's all delivered very coldly and clinically.
It's one thing to me to not like companions within the show (I really hate Clara) as they come and go fairly often, but Doctor's tend to last that bit longer, and to not like them is a big problem. If you can't like the main character of the show you enjoy watching, then it's a big issue. I can't deny that Peter is definitely skilled for the role and Moffat (who I'm a big fan of) is talented to make it work, but I think they've both horribly misjudged it from the off here....
There's alot to like about Capaldi. Or at least for me and the many who are loving his Doctor already. Sure. I accept for some its not quite what they want. But to say 'thats not the doctor' just doesn't ring true for me. I could see him being more challenging for those only used to New Who but he fits right in with the general pantheon of Doctors past.
What do I like? That he is brutally honest and blunt- this is in direct contrast to Eleven who would often act like an arse but would laugh it off with his slightly disingenuous manchild routine. Same to a degree with Ten. They could be quite harsh and ruthless but because it was always coated in a sugary layer of 'im sorry, so so so sorry' people were more accepting of it. Already Twelve seems willing to just be who he has to be without the groveling apologies and self pity.
Also I like that Capaldi is more guarded. There seems alot more going on with him beneath the surface whereas Eleven for instance was very verbose and acted out everything he felt.
Capaldi isn't as loveable as Matt was so instantly. He is a harder sell. That's the point. Did anyone want Eleven 2.0? I certainly didn't. Despite rating him as one of the finest Doctors ever.
Like I say. To say ' I don't like this doctor' so far is reasonable. To say he 'isnt like the doctor' is nonsense. And personally if asked who is the better 'man' out of 10,11 and 12 I would already say 12. Fierce. Brave. Uncompromising. Funny. Vulnerable. Brilliant. Far more going on than silly hand gestures and angst ridden stares into the middle distance.
There's alot to like about Capaldi. Or at least for me and the many who are loving his Doctor already. Sure. I accept for some its not quite what they want. But to say 'thats not the doctor' just doesn't ring true for me. I could see him being more challenging for those only used to New Who but he fits right in with the general pantheon of Doctors past. .
Obviously this is where problems are going to arise for those only familiar with the show since 2005. It is a stark contrast in tone for the lead character. I've surprised myself with how little I care about him. I thought he'd be a bit 'darker' than Matt, but he's just not likeable and that's the issue.
What do I like? That he is brutally honest and blunt- this is in direct contrast to Eleven who would often act like an arse but would laugh it off with his slightly disingenuous manchild routine. Same to a degree with Ten. They could be quite harsh and ruthless but because it was always coated in a sugary layer of 'im sorry, so so so sorry' people were more accepting of it. Already Twelve seems willing to just be who he has to be without the groveling apologies and self pity.
Capaldi isn't as loveable as Matt was so instantly. He is a harder sell. That's the point. Did anyone want Eleven 2.0? I certainly didn't. Despite rating him as one of the finest Doctors ever.
It's this bluntness that is my problem though and it appears to be the case for some others too. The Doctor can be blunt, Chris, David and Matt were when required, it's just that there was more to them than that. With Peter it appears to be the only thing about him. It just comes across as mean and uncaring, that's not good for the lead were meant to like...
I don't get this harder sell thing either. First impressions count a lot for me anyway in terms of TV shows and their characters. If Peter's not likeable, even in some parts, from the off, it become a lot harder to then like him. I can't find anything redeeming about his Doctor at all...it's going to be a struggle I think...
if asked who is the better 'man' out of 10,11 and 12 I would already say 12. Fierce. Brave. Uncompromising. Funny. Vulnerable. Brilliant. Far more going on than silly hand gestures and angst ridden stares into the middle distance.
Blimey, I think you're really overplaying 12 already. Comparing him to 11 who sacrificed 900 years or more on Trenzalore for one town and saying 12 is the better man just seems odd. 12 couldn't care less that someone died. That's not Doctor-like whether you think it is or not. The Doctor is the caring sort to me anyway...
I've been thinking about this: I've absolutely adored John Hurt's War Doctor even though he was old, grumpy and darker, because in addition to that he was also in a way still charming. Which is kinda more in the vein of what I thought we'd see in 12. But then I only have my expectations to blame.
As preiously mentioned though, way too early to judge completely just 2 episodes in.
He's spiky and abrasive, arrogant and moralising. He's getting pretty interesting.
But then, this is an episode about his mortal enemies. He's on edge, he's in the darkest territory he could ever encounter. I'm not surprised his outlook is dark and pragmatic.
Comments
I thought he was actually just objecting to her shouting and pointing a gun at him, and trying to talk her into some semblance of civilized behaviour. It had nothing to do with being pedantic, it was "I just saved your life, so stop threatening to shoot me." Which i saw as a perfectly reasonable thing to ask of her, even if he was very unsympathetic to her.
I'm seeing a lot of negativity about 12 and it's dismaying me, just a bit, because I love this Doctor already. I don't feel like the Doctor, or any other fictional character, needs to be someone I'd like in real life. I don't much care if he's nice and polite, I just want him to be heroic and interesting. And the more alien he is, the more socially challenged he is and the less he understands humans, the more interesting he is, IMO. He is still a hero, even if he does violate human values in the process (such as saving lives by taking advantage of an unavoidable death to find an escape route). I don't agree that he's radically different to the previous Doctors. They have all shown a callously pragmatic and detached side at some time or another. This is an aspect of the Doctor that we all have always known existed, and it's a side that I've always thought would be interesting to see brought to the fore. In many ways, it's the Doctor at his most exposed, with the layers of pretense and whimsey and humany-wumany stripped away so that we can see what's really going on inside his head.
Well maybe it's your perspective of the Character that's out of kilter here.
For anyone who joined the party in 1963 or in time to catch Tom Baker - or indeed catch up with the plethora of DVDs and satellite/cable reruns.
It's instantly recognisable. The anti-hero. Colin Baker gave a very accurate assessment of the Character once when he expressed a view that The Doctor was concerned with things being right. Right not necessarily meaning to be nice, or good all the time, but right.
Maybe you need to step back and watch an unfolding drama about the Character and see what develops, instead of stressing that after two weeks they haven't delivered your personal checklist of requirements.
Or not watch, as is you're so busy moaning you've failed to see the storyline is actually addressing these issues you raise. It won't be an overnight resolution though.
Presumably you prefer your Doctors gift wrapped, rather than investing time in a Doctor who himself is an unfolding story. Requiring you watch and comprehend the ongoing storyline being told, beyond the usual monsters from outer space.
I agree. And part of what's interesting about Doctor Who, for me, is seeing an alien perspective on human societal norms and morals, which can be more objective and rational. Take Into the Dalek as an example: the Doctor saved everyone by tricking the guy who was about to be killed into swallowing something which could be tracked to a place of safety. Sure, by human standards it was a callous act, but it did save everyone else and ultimately did no harm. We are shocked by it because it violates received notions of what is 'decent', (taking advantage from a death, deceiving a man who was about to die) but if you analyse it, it was probably the right thing to do.
But overall not so dark and I don't really expect him to get so,at the end of the day they're not going to risk turning off lots of viewers on their biggest global franchise.
He's different from the previous Doctor and that's how it should be so far so good.
So far he's locked his companion up with some killer droids, he told a man to trust him on the point of death and did nothing to help, and has enough hatred to turn a dalek, of all creatures, into a killing machine!
We're only two episodes in, so many of his defining character moments are yet to come, and he's never going to suddenly turn into a villain, but he's a Doctor with a much darker sense of humour who's got much clearer prejudices than his predecessors, and is willing to be immediately nasty for the greater good.
Yes, this is a darker Doctor!
But then, this is an episode about his mortal enemies. He's on edge, he's in the darkest territory he could ever encounter. I'm not surprised his outlook is dark and pragmatic.
As always, the AV Club has an interesting exploration of the themes:
http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/doctor-who-dalek-208717
It'll be interesting to see how that translates to what appears to be a more light-hearted romp next week.
"interesting" - best word for him so far (i'm tending towards "has potential")
Never read or used "AVClub" - are their reviews always that detailed and well written?
And I'm starting a "swear box" - everyone who uses the word "dark" when describing the doctor from now on has to put a cat smiley in the box. :kitty:
That's a very interesting article. Thanks for sharing it, and i think I'll check AV clubs reviews on a regular basis from now on.
I was particularly interested with what it says about how more of the subtext should have been text. I think that's my one problem with this excellent episode. There's so much going on, so many interesting concepts and moments of character development, that there was no time to make anything more overt or to deeply examine all of these ideas. This is a big contrast to Deep Breath, and a little disappointing, and just makes me feel more strongly that 45 minutes isn't really enough time for a great Doctor Who story. There wasn't enough time for introspection, and too much of the dialogue was delivered in rapid-fire fashion, which is a feature of New Who that I had hoped we'd seen the last of. It didn't seem to give Capaldi the chance to deliver as subtle a performance he did in Deep Breath. We were given so many interesting hints about the Doctor's psyche (which is really refreshing) but it left me wanting more of that.
I guess what I'm really saying is that maybe 45 minutes was enough time to tell a great Doctor Who story before now, but it's not really enough time to tell a great 12th Doctor story, as his adventures are shaping up to have more focus on themes and the psychology of the characters. 45 minutes isn't really enough time for all of that plus a rollicking adventure, but Into the Dalek certainly gave it a good try. I'm not saying it didn't work, because it certainly did, but it could have been so much better, and the show's already gone back to feeling a bit rushed. With one more small change (more multi-part stories) the show could be the best it's ever been IMO
That scene really bothered me because he basically got in a snit over her not being grateful enough he saved her and focused on being upset over her brother instead.
I don't buy 'well he's an alien' excuse. He's 2000 years old and spent a LOT of time around humans. He knows exactly why she would be upset and chose to ignore it. That's uncaring and makes him an arse.
That's not the Doctor.
Yeah that's my issue with 12's characterisation. They seemingly were getting a bit excited over doing something different and have lost the point of the character in many ways. He's NOT supposed to be like other generic moody heroes (he's certainly not meant to be Sherlock!). Instead of making him 'darker' I hope the rest of the series concentrates on making him kinder, more charming, more engaging and actually the hero.
I remember the 'do you want to come with me?' trailers that 9 did. The answer was an instant 'yes'. The answer here is a definite 'no' right now. Tbh it just feels like they've decided mean characters are 'cool' and have gone there with little thought as to why he'd be like that.
Good idea - it's a lazy term that means different things to different people.
It kind of is - the Tenth and Eleventh would similarly try to make her focus on how lucky she is to be alive rather than dwelling on the disaster, Twelve is just less indulgent about it. It wasn't like he wanted her to be grateful to him, but that she should be grateful for what she has. And what could be more Doctory than that?
Sorry but I can't agree. 12s tone is very much 'what are you crying about you're alive aren't you?' whereas 10 and 11 would've been far more sympathetic to her grief. It's not indulgent to be kind it's just basic decency and I do think his predecessors would be genuinely ashamed of him here.
I see 12 as a broken Doctor who needs fixing and that's what Clara is there to do. And that could certainly be an interesting plot line but it does mean that currently I don't like 12. He's a lesser 'man' than those who came before him.
Great post. This is pretty much exactly how I feel after 2 episodes. Hopefully he will develop from here.
Ten and Eleven were important and great incarnations. They were not the be all and end all. They're certainly not the doctor I knew and loved. And yet I was open minded and embraced their slightly different take on the character. If only the Ten and Eleven fans would extend Twelve the same courtesy. Also. Being 'mean' isn't cool. But being multilayered and complex and having a degree of uncertainty is. And its also exciting. Tennant and Smith had become utterly predictable by the end of their eras. Like Clara. I don't know what the doctor is going to do anymore. And I love it.
It was the cocked head and piercing gaze, gave me the same impression. Thought that was brilliant - sent chills down my spine
I have to disagree with you on this. I might not have seen all of Classic Who (YET), but I've seen a fair load of it and at least a few stories from each Doctor. And I had no trouble warming up to any of the Clasic Doctors (maybe except for One, at which point you might suggest that that is what Capaldi is a return back to, but the thing is that it made sense for the Doctor to be like that at the beginning of his journey began, before he met Ian and Barbara and everyone else later on. I'm just not sure it makes sense for such a return now 50+ years into the show).
And yes, all of the Doctors have been different, but some things have always stayed the same/similar and furthermore each of the Doctors have had multiple characteristics to them. Over the span of the two episodes we have hardly seen any other side to Capaldi than mean grumpy old man. Which is fun to watch to some extent, but at some point I can't help but feel that he ought to show us some other face as well. And no I don't expect him to have the happy go lucky attitude that 10 and 11 tended to have, but having some moments where he isn't being a total d*** would be pretty great.
I mean, I have seen a lot of comparisons to how he is similarly mean to those around him as Tom Baker's Fourth Doctor was, but I just don't see it so far. I mean, sure, Four was mean quite often, but a lot of the time he was actually making some kind of genuine point to those around him by being mean. With 12 so far i just feels like he is being mean for the sake of being mean and for the sake of comedy. Which is once again fun to watch, but I'd like to see more to the character than that.
I'm not even saying that I don't like Capaldi's Doctor, I do,and he has had some very Doctorish moments (for example that speech inside the Dalek reminded me a lot of One's speech from The Edge of Destruction), it's just that I don't love him yet. And I'm not sure if I'll ever will if all he continues to be is just what has been shown so far.
Also, you make it sound as if Tennant's and Smith's Doctors were totally unconnected to the Classich show, which I have to further disagree on. It's not like the Classic show has to mean going all the way back to Hartnell. Sure when you take him, then Capaldi's Doctor is much closer to him than Tennant or Smith, but 12's characterization is hardly any closer to Davison's than Tennant's was or to Troughton's than Smith's was.
Then again, it's only been 2 episodes and we have only seen glimpses, so I might be wrong in the end, who knows, eh? And even if I am not, I will continue watching, just as I can watch Hartnell's old episodes, even though One isn't necessarily the kind of Doctor I love, because ultimately it is the show that it is the star. And although I found Deep Breath a bit boring, I did enjoy Into the Dalek a lot despite having some reservations about 12's character.
Yes it's the pointlessly mean which I find very unDoctor. His attitude to Journey's grief was cold and callous. That isn't the Doctor and nor should it be. The man is not a clueless idiot when it comes to humans. And if he doesn't care then that goes against who he should be. It seems to have been written more to make a point about this Doctor being a different, moodier character than any real reason and the fact that they keep hammering that home so hard repeatedly makes him unlikeable.
To call it arrogance it really overdoing it there I think. For some, the Doctor, in what I believe he has to be, is at least likeable. Peter's Doctor is nowhere near that I'm afraid. We're meant to be on the main character's side. The show is based around him remember, and if we can't like him then there is a problem. It's a problem on the writing team's part and a problem on Peter's part.
Some on here have said Jon Pertwee wasn't as instantly likeable but from what I've seen of his episodes (including his first), Jon may be a bit serious but there is a twinkle in his eye as he goes about it. He's serious when required but deep down he's still the same Doctor. For Peter, he's not got any of that about him. He's just been plain rude and unlikeable...very Malcolm Tucker-like. I liked the Thick of It, Peter was fine in that, but it's not right in Doctor Who.
David was likeable from the off for many (I took until S3 to properly like him though) and the same goes for Matt. What's there to like about Peter's Doctor. The fact he's mean? That's not a good thing, never has been.
Another thing is that inside two episodes off the top of my head, we did see a lot of different personas within Matt's Doctor for instance. He was zany, serious, angry, fun and heroic. You wanted to travel with him. With Peter, there's only been rudeness and just grumpiness. You don't want to travel with a guy who's like that! Even when he's tried to be funny, it's fallen flat as there's no twinkle effect or slight smile from his Doctor. It's all delivered very coldly and clinically.
It's one thing to me to not like companions within the show (I really hate Clara) as they come and go fairly often, but Doctor's tend to last that bit longer, and to not like them is a big problem. If you can't like the main character of the show you enjoy watching, then it's a big issue. I can't deny that Peter is definitely skilled for the role and Moffat (who I'm a big fan of) is talented to make it work, but I think they've both horribly misjudged it from the off here....
1) His compassion for the dinosaur
2) Despite his initial bluntness with Journey, he does say "I wish I could have done more"
3) His affectionate jibbing of Clara ("keep your spirits up. Clara, Clara, Clara")
4) The excitement in his voice describing the universe and at the thought of changing the Dalek
5) When rejecting her, trying to let Journey down gently by telling her she's kind, nice and "definitely brave".
6) Telling Clara she has a 'good personality' and that she's an 'amazing teacher'.
Bit more subtle, I'll grant you, but I still see a warmth in him. I do see those 'slight smiles' that you talk about, even amongst the less emotional moments.
If you think about Galfifreyan History/Society, it's very restrained and unemotional, with an infamous reluctance to interfere. Maybe that side of the Doctor's upbringing is reasserting itself, especially at the beginning of a new cycle that came from the Time Lords.
There's alot to like about Capaldi. Or at least for me and the many who are loving his Doctor already. Sure. I accept for some its not quite what they want. But to say 'thats not the doctor' just doesn't ring true for me. I could see him being more challenging for those only used to New Who but he fits right in with the general pantheon of Doctors past.
What do I like? That he is brutally honest and blunt- this is in direct contrast to Eleven who would often act like an arse but would laugh it off with his slightly disingenuous manchild routine. Same to a degree with Ten. They could be quite harsh and ruthless but because it was always coated in a sugary layer of 'im sorry, so so so sorry' people were more accepting of it. Already Twelve seems willing to just be who he has to be without the groveling apologies and self pity.
Also I like that Capaldi is more guarded. There seems alot more going on with him beneath the surface whereas Eleven for instance was very verbose and acted out everything he felt.
Capaldi isn't as loveable as Matt was so instantly. He is a harder sell. That's the point. Did anyone want Eleven 2.0? I certainly didn't. Despite rating him as one of the finest Doctors ever.
Like I say. To say ' I don't like this doctor' so far is reasonable. To say he 'isnt like the doctor' is nonsense. And personally if asked who is the better 'man' out of 10,11 and 12 I would already say 12. Fierce. Brave. Uncompromising. Funny. Vulnerable. Brilliant. Far more going on than silly hand gestures and angst ridden stares into the middle distance.
Obviously this is where problems are going to arise for those only familiar with the show since 2005. It is a stark contrast in tone for the lead character. I've surprised myself with how little I care about him. I thought he'd be a bit 'darker' than Matt, but he's just not likeable and that's the issue.
It's this bluntness that is my problem though and it appears to be the case for some others too. The Doctor can be blunt, Chris, David and Matt were when required, it's just that there was more to them than that. With Peter it appears to be the only thing about him. It just comes across as mean and uncaring, that's not good for the lead were meant to like...
I don't get this harder sell thing either. First impressions count a lot for me anyway in terms of TV shows and their characters. If Peter's not likeable, even in some parts, from the off, it become a lot harder to then like him. I can't find anything redeeming about his Doctor at all...it's going to be a struggle I think...
Blimey, I think you're really overplaying 12 already. Comparing him to 11 who sacrificed 900 years or more on Trenzalore for one town and saying 12 is the better man just seems odd. 12 couldn't care less that someone died. That's not Doctor-like whether you think it is or not. The Doctor is the caring sort to me anyway...
As preiously mentioned though, way too early to judge completely just 2 episodes in.
Great review