Her clothing, cuddle cat, a cupboard as well in the apartment too I think, or was that blood?cant remember now which dog it was.
It was the Cadaver dog. Blood alerts were behind the sofa along with cadaver alerts. To clear this up again the dogs were not alerting to a scent of Madeleine specifically. The point about the dogs alerts is they were all on possessions, property & vehicles directly connected to the McCanns. There were NO alerts at the Murat property, none in the other 4 apartments, none in the other 9 vehicles & none in the open areas searched by the dogs.
Lie detectors can be beaten as a previous poster stated simply by the person believing their world view to be correct. It is also possible to train the mind to associate certain key words/questions with positive/different emotions. If they were completely foolproof why are they used more on programmes like JK & not a common part of Police procedure ?
Presumably because, if she'd had an accident, her body would have been found.
I do tend to agree with you on the first point. I think she wandered off too, but was then abducted by an opportunist who saw a small child wandering around lost.
But who knows?
I believe the reason why Kate McCann knew her daughter had not wondered off was the child stair gate at the top of the outside stairs. They were still closed when she went to check on the kids.
The only thing that could have happened for me is if the child tried to climb over this gate and then fell down the side of the steps. I mention before i believe blood or dog indicated the bushes there.....
it doesn't seem quite so far fetched an idea that Madeleine's body could have been concealed there at some point.
it does seem far fetched. in fact, it seems completely bizarre. impossible under the circumstances, incredible by any standards. plus there's absolutely no evidence to support such an idea.
so if people's beliefs are based on these sorts of outlandish ideas, then imo, they are likely to be way off base, and i find myself wondering why people want to invest so heavily in completely laughable (not to mention hateful) ideas.
Can't stand the charade the McCanns play out. People are blinded by their middle class status. If they had lived in a Council Estate they would have been jailed for neglect at the very least.
Which is why in this case, without knowing what it was they were alerting too, they cannot be dismissed out of paw.
Their alerts stand as indicators. Hopefully, when the case is solved their work will be contextualised and conclusions drawn but until then it is a part of the case.
Alerting to a scent when the source of the scent is (often long) gone is what they do. It's up to the human section of the investigation to sort that bit out.
By all means, don't base your whole opinion of the case on the one section of evidence/findings, but on the other hand don't summarily disregard something that is, as yet, still awating confirmation/dismissal.
I think what made me sort of sit up was the McCanns reaction to the dogs findings....McCann himself tried to make fun of them...........
Now for me the scenario is this.
You find your daughter missing. You know you had nothing to do with the child missing.
After extensive searching the police are advised by the British police to send in the dogs.
So the dogs go into the apartment and indicate blood and death.
What would I do? I would probably be wailing on the floor crying hysterically to think that someone had harmed my child in the apartment...I would be so upset and I would be begging the police to find her even more quickly as she could be somewhere hurt and alone etc etc.
May I ask why the McCanns haven’t been forced to do the police reconstruction, etc?
If they were neglecting their children (by leaving them alone in an unlocked house regularly), there was no direct evidence of an abduction whatsoever, the blood and cadaver scent dogs reacted to the McCanns items (both in the same way independently) along with the bizarre washing of “cuddle cat”, why are they walking around allowed to claim their daughter was abducted no questions asked? I feel like I’ve missed something? Isn't the most likely thing that these isolated bits of info don't hold up under scrutiny (for whatever reason)? What’s the actual verdict from the police/investigators?
But if there had been a tragic accident in which the McCanns were not involved, why go to all the bother of covering it up ? No doubt they would have been criticised (well they have been in any case) for leaving the children alone but it would presumably have gone no further than that.
But if there had been a tragic accident in which the McCanns were not involved, why go to all the bother of covering it up ? No doubt they would have been criticised (well they have been in any case) for leaving the children alone but it would presumably have gone no further than that.
It would have gone a lot further,dath by neglect, they would have been arrested,imprisoned, lost their jobs and possibly their well behaved children,their home, status,, it would be too much to lose.
It would have gone a lot further,dath by neglect, they would have been arrested,imprisoned, lost their jobs and possibly their well behaved children,their home, status,, it would be too much to lose.
From the accepted time scale (unless everyone is lying and it all happened much earlier) there would never have been time to hide a body with hotel staff, guests and then police all over the place once the ''alarm'' had been raised.
Can't stand the charade the McCanns play out. People are blinded by their middle class status. If they had lived in a Council Estate they would have been jailed for neglect at the very least.
although you are right not everyone is "blinded". Look at this thread and how people seem to have their free view on things.
In case anyone wants to watch the repeat, it is listed at 8.30pm tonight on the BBC News channel (Sky 503).
Cadaver dogs
How soon after death can they pick up a scent? I can understand them being used when someone has been missing a while, is perhaps suspected of being dead somewhere (cops have already caught the killer), or are searching open terrain.
However, if Maddie died in the appartment and was removed almost immediately would the dogs be able to pick up 'the scent of death'... rather than blood spatters or whatever... and as the room had three small children in it obv it wouldn't be at all surprising to find a small blood spot or two...
Were the dogs alerting generally or specifically for death?
Or is it possible someone else had died in the room prior to the McCanns ever going there ? I suppose the hotel would not want to publicise that too much as some people are squeamish about such things
Or is it possible someone else had died in the room prior to the McCanns ever going there ? I suppose the hotel would not want to publicise that too much as some people are squeamish about such things
Fair point if it was just the apartment, alerts were also raised on Kates clothing, a childs clothing, a toy & their rental car. I'm sure the history of the room would have been looked into, by the McCanns if no-one else & we would have heard if that had been the case.
Of course not. It is a scenario, whether it happened or not, well I am not the one to answer that.
If it had happened that way then that is what may have happened to them, as I said, self presevation can kick in with panic. Stating that is in no way saying that it actually happened.
They had 24/7 access to the church for several weeks, as the priest gave them a key...
When were they given the key? Presumably some time after that phone call... And the idea is that initially they hid Maddie somewhere else - car boot ?
And what was it someone said about the priest being upset?
As someone said earlier, the more you look into it the more strange it all seems.
It is a long held belief that when you start to lie your brain gets more and more stressed because you have to remember the full details of the lie. The first thing Plod looks for is inconsistencies in the re-telling. I love CSI
In case anyone wants to watch the repeat, it is listed at 8.30pm tonight on the BBC News channel (Sky 503).
Cadaver dogs
How soon after death can they pick up a scent? I can understand them being used when someone has been missing a while, is perhaps suspected of being dead somewhere (cops have already caught the killer), or are searching open terrain.
However, if Maddie died in the appartment and was removed almost immediately would the dogs be able to pick up 'the scent of death'... rather than blood spatters or whatever... and as the room had three small children in it obv it wouldn't be at all surprising to find a small blood spot or two...
Were the dogs alerting generally or specifically for death?
I was wondering this too, and I've tried researching it, but still not found a proper answer.
What I did find - and I was surprised by, is that apparently, in training and tests, they can sniff out traces of bodies that have been dead for less than 3 hours. In the Maddie case, 3 hours is quite a long time, so it doesn't really tell us much at all - but I mean, in general terms, that's not a long time.
When people talked about the dogs being trained to sniff out a smell caused by chemicals during putrification, I thought they were talking about decomposing bodies... bodies that had been there for days or weeks. I never thought it was a matter of hours.
Apparently that's not true and 3 hours is actually enough for them to be able to sniff it out - crazy! Also I read that they don't necessarily sniff out somewhere where a body has actually been - I mean there doesn't have to be any physical contact whatsoever with a body, i.e. a body lying on a carpet, they can smell it from the air if a body passes through a space.
I'll try and find the link. It doesn't add much to this case, IMO, but it was interesting all the same. I expect many people, like me, thought cadaver dogs were all about finding day/week old, rotting bodies etc. but it seems they can do the same job within a few hours after death. Very, very interesting.
I think what made me sort of sit up was the McCanns reaction to the dogs findings....McCann himself tried to make fun of them...........
Now for me the scenario is this.
You find your daughter missing. You know you had nothing to do with the child missing.
After extensive searching the police are advised by the British police to send in the dogs.
So the dogs go into the apartment and indicate blood and death.
What would I do? I would probably be wailing on the floor crying hysterically to think that someone had harmed my child in the apartment...I would be so upset and I would be begging the police to find her even more quickly as she could be somewhere hurt and alone etc etc.
I would never have made fun of the dogs findings.
That is what made me think........
OMG I remember making that exact point nearly 5 years ago! It's what got me seriously thinking that something was VERY WRONG. Up until then, I just had that initial (but very strong feeling) that things didn't add up. I never watch ITV breakfast prog, but for some reason I was watching at 8am on 4 May and as soon as the reports came through, I remember thinking "something ain't right about this!"
In case anyone wants to watch the repeat, it is listed at 8.30pm tonight on the BBC News channel (Sky 503).
Cadaver dogs
How soon after death can they pick up a scent? I can understand them being used when someone has been missing a while, is perhaps suspected of being dead somewhere (cops have already caught the killer), or are searching open terrain.
However, if Maddie died in the appartment and was removed almost immediately would the dogs be able to pick up 'the scent of death'... rather than blood spatters or whatever... and as the room had three small children in it obv it wouldn't be at all surprising to find a small blood spot or two...
Were the dogs alerting generally or specifically for death?
The cadaver dog alerts specifically to dead body scent, not to the identity of the cadaver in any way.
Good questions though. From a quick search all I find is -
"The EVRD will locate cadaver, whether in whole or parts thereof; deposited surface or subsurface to a depth of 3-4 feet shortly after death to the advanced stages of deposition & putrefacation through to skeletal. This includes incinerated remains even if large quantities of accelerant have been involved".
If anyone can provide other info please do
About the blood yes, you could expect there may be small blood spots or two. The point is where they are found in relation to cadaver scent being detected. If I remember correctly the DNA evidence recovered from the areas the blood dog alerted to were inconclusive. Neither proving or ruling out if it was Madelines' DNA.
it does seem far fetched. in fact, it seems completely bizarre. impossible under the circumstances, incredible by any standards. plus there's absolutely no evidence to support such an idea.
so if people's beliefs are based on these sorts of outlandish ideas, then imo, they are likely to be way off base, and i find myself wondering why people want to invest so heavily in completely laughable (not to mention hateful) ideas.
Once again, the McCanns had access to that church 24/7 for several weeks as they had a key! They could have entered and left the church countless times (as they did) at all times of day and night without arousing suspicion.
I'm not investing in anything, simply pointing out that the Portugese police theory about the church isn't as improbable as it might at first seem - once you realise how freely the McCanns were able to visit that building.
lol, check out all the armchair detectives on here. We all know there is not enough evidence to prosecute the McCanns, we all know they are among the worst parents in the world.
This was the original link I was talking about earlier. The tests were carried out using bodies less than 3 hours dead, with environmental exposure between 2 and 10 minutes to the body, but no physical contact between the body and carpet.
lol, check out all the armchair detectives on here. We all know there is not enough evidence to prosecute the McCanns, we all know they are among the worst parents in the world.
What else is there to discuss?
Well, this is the third time I've seen you in this thread.
... they can sniff out traces of bodies that have been dead for less than 3 hours. ...Also I read that they don't necessarily sniff out somewhere where a body has actually been - I mean there doesn't have to be any physical contact whatsoever with a body, i.e. a body lying on a carpet, they can smell it from the air if a body passes through a space.
...
EDIT: This is not the original link I was talking about, but it is interesting. It mentions "a recently deceased body" being somewhere for less than 10 minutes being "sniffable": http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html
Impressive. I think I read/heard somewhere that the part of a dog's brain involved in smelling is 3000 times more than a human's.
Clever doggies
Of course, the McGs may think differently... :eek:
Comments
It was the Cadaver dog. Blood alerts were behind the sofa along with cadaver alerts. To clear this up again the dogs were not alerting to a scent of Madeleine specifically. The point about the dogs alerts is they were all on possessions, property & vehicles directly connected to the McCanns. There were NO alerts at the Murat property, none in the other 4 apartments, none in the other 9 vehicles & none in the open areas searched by the dogs.
Lie detectors can be beaten as a previous poster stated simply by the person believing their world view to be correct. It is also possible to train the mind to associate certain key words/questions with positive/different emotions. If they were completely foolproof why are they used more on programmes like JK & not a common part of Police procedure ?
I believe the reason why Kate McCann knew her daughter had not wondered off was the child stair gate at the top of the outside stairs. They were still closed when she went to check on the kids.
The only thing that could have happened for me is if the child tried to climb over this gate and then fell down the side of the steps. I mention before i believe blood or dog indicated the bushes there.....
it does seem far fetched. in fact, it seems completely bizarre. impossible under the circumstances, incredible by any standards. plus there's absolutely no evidence to support such an idea.
so if people's beliefs are based on these sorts of outlandish ideas, then imo, they are likely to be way off base, and i find myself wondering why people want to invest so heavily in completely laughable (not to mention hateful) ideas.
isn't this a begged question though? i mean, some people might.
someone doing something that you wouldn't is a pretty flimsy premise to then implicate the involved parties in body snatching / hiding / moving.
isn't it? i mean, in the real world?
I think what made me sort of sit up was the McCanns reaction to the dogs findings....McCann himself tried to make fun of them...........
Now for me the scenario is this.
You find your daughter missing. You know you had nothing to do with the child missing.
After extensive searching the police are advised by the British police to send in the dogs.
So the dogs go into the apartment and indicate blood and death.
What would I do? I would probably be wailing on the floor crying hysterically to think that someone had harmed my child in the apartment...I would be so upset and I would be begging the police to find her even more quickly as she could be somewhere hurt and alone etc etc.
I would never have made fun of the dogs findings.
That is what made me think........
If they were neglecting their children (by leaving them alone in an unlocked house regularly), there was no direct evidence of an abduction whatsoever, the blood and cadaver scent dogs reacted to the McCanns items (both in the same way independently) along with the bizarre washing of “cuddle cat”, why are they walking around allowed to claim their daughter was abducted no questions asked? I feel like I’ve missed something?
It would have gone a lot further,dath by neglect, they would have been arrested,imprisoned, lost their jobs and possibly their well behaved children,their home, status,, it would be too much to lose.
Panic would kick in and self preservation.
you say all that as if it were actually true
although you are right not everyone is "blinded". Look at this thread and how people seem to have their free view on things.
Cadaver dogs
How soon after death can they pick up a scent? I can understand them being used when someone has been missing a while, is perhaps suspected of being dead somewhere (cops have already caught the killer), or are searching open terrain.
However, if Maddie died in the appartment and was removed almost immediately would the dogs be able to pick up 'the scent of death'... rather than blood spatters or whatever... and as the room had three small children in it obv it wouldn't be at all surprising to find a small blood spot or two...
Were the dogs alerting generally or specifically for death?
Fair point if it was just the apartment, alerts were also raised on Kates clothing, a childs clothing, a toy & their rental car. I'm sure the history of the room would have been looked into, by the McCanns if no-one else & we would have heard if that had been the case.
Of course not. It is a scenario, whether it happened or not, well I am not the one to answer that.
If it had happened that way then that is what may have happened to them, as I said, self presevation can kick in with panic. Stating that is in no way saying that it actually happened.
Is that clear enough for you?
When were they given the key? Presumably some time after that phone call... And the idea is that initially they hid Maddie somewhere else - car boot ?
And what was it someone said about the priest being upset?
As someone said earlier, the more you look into it the more strange it all seems.
It is a long held belief that when you start to lie your brain gets more and more stressed because you have to remember the full details of the lie. The first thing Plod looks for is inconsistencies in the re-telling. I love CSI
What I did find - and I was surprised by, is that apparently, in training and tests, they can sniff out traces of bodies that have been dead for less than 3 hours. In the Maddie case, 3 hours is quite a long time, so it doesn't really tell us much at all - but I mean, in general terms, that's not a long time.
When people talked about the dogs being trained to sniff out a smell caused by chemicals during putrification, I thought they were talking about decomposing bodies... bodies that had been there for days or weeks. I never thought it was a matter of hours.
Apparently that's not true and 3 hours is actually enough for them to be able to sniff it out - crazy! Also I read that they don't necessarily sniff out somewhere where a body has actually been - I mean there doesn't have to be any physical contact whatsoever with a body, i.e. a body lying on a carpet, they can smell it from the air if a body passes through a space.
I'll try and find the link. It doesn't add much to this case, IMO, but it was interesting all the same. I expect many people, like me, thought cadaver dogs were all about finding day/week old, rotting bodies etc. but it seems they can do the same job within a few hours after death. Very, very interesting.
EDIT: This is not the original link I was talking about, but it is interesting. It mentions "a recently deceased body" being somewhere for less than 10 minutes being "sniffable": http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html
OMG I remember making that exact point nearly 5 years ago! It's what got me seriously thinking that something was VERY WRONG. Up until then, I just had that initial (but very strong feeling) that things didn't add up. I never watch ITV breakfast prog, but for some reason I was watching at 8am on 4 May and as soon as the reports came through, I remember thinking "something ain't right about this!"
The cadaver dog alerts specifically to dead body scent, not to the identity of the cadaver in any way.
Good questions though. From a quick search all I find is -
"The EVRD will locate cadaver, whether in whole or parts thereof; deposited surface or subsurface to a depth of 3-4 feet shortly after death to the advanced stages of deposition & putrefacation through to skeletal. This includes incinerated remains even if large quantities of accelerant have been involved".
If anyone can provide other info please do
About the blood yes, you could expect there may be small blood spots or two. The point is where they are found in relation to cadaver scent being detected. If I remember correctly the DNA evidence recovered from the areas the blood dog alerted to were inconclusive. Neither proving or ruling out if it was Madelines' DNA.
Once again, the McCanns had access to that church 24/7 for several weeks as they had a key! They could have entered and left the church countless times (as they did) at all times of day and night without arousing suspicion.
I'm not investing in anything, simply pointing out that the Portugese police theory about the church isn't as improbable as it might at first seem - once you realise how freely the McCanns were able to visit that building.
What else is there to discuss?
http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2008/12/cadaver-dogs-how-reliable-are-they-at-detecting-death/
(The website name may make it seem suspect, but the study has been properly and academically referenced if anyone wishes to verify).
Well, this is the third time I've seen you in this thread.
Clearly you can't help coming back for more.
Impressive. I think I read/heard somewhere that the part of a dog's brain involved in smelling is 3000 times more than a human's.
Clever doggies
Of course, the McGs may think differently... :eek: