Premier League to sell rights to 168 live games; tender issued today.

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  • casinoman13casinoman13 Posts: 7,062
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    pjex wrote: »
    4 bidders getting 42 games each would no doubt be very lucrative for the Premier league, imagine subs if you wanted all 4 would be high.

    Don't even go there, I would be very surprised if anyone would even consider that.
  • Stumacher7Stumacher7 Posts: 614
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    Charles Sale at it again, he now says there will be a 4 way battle for the rights which close next Friday, Sky, BT, Discovery and Bein will fight it out.

    Im sure if he keeps guessing he will get something right.

    Sunday Times also saying these are the four potential bidders and Friday is close of bids. Also says rights may top £4bn but BT may be hampered by their pension deficit and acquisition of EE
  • casinoman13casinoman13 Posts: 7,062
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    Stumacher7 wrote: »
    Sunday Times also saying these are the four potential bidders and Friday is close of bids. Also says rights may top £4bn but BT may be hampered by their pension deficit and acquisition of EE

    We are talking about huge stupid money here and I think the key word as far as BT are concerned is " may. "

    I don't think BT were ever going to go for 5 or 6 packages but I think they still will go for a decent high profile package on top of the 38 games that they have now.

    I just hope the Prem guys show some common sense and keep the rights where they are at present but my god could you imagine if Sky only got left with a package or 2 with someone else/or 2 getting the bulk? Wow now that would be a storey.
  • eljmayeseljmayes Posts: 1,096
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    If Eurosport gets the rights to some games then clearly it wouldn't be as bad as a new broadcaster coming into fold- that said I'm not sure Sky would like Eurosport's involvement as it's still in the lower tier package I believe.

    I think the likely outcome is Sky holding the same amount of games and BT increasing theirs.
  • Bingo_Bingo_ Posts: 1,077
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    I'd be surprised if it was as low as £4bn. It's been widely speculated that they'll achieve the equivalent of £10m per game. £4bn would fall some 25% short of that.

    I think we're looking £5bn-£5.5bn
  • JordyDJordyD Posts: 4,007
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    that would be a storey.

    As in multi-storey? :)
  • pjexpjex Posts: 9,295
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    eljmayes wrote: »
    If Eurosport gets the rights to some games then clearly it wouldn't be as bad as a new broadcaster coming into fold- that said I'm not sure Sky would like Eurosport's involvement as it's still in the lower tier package I believe.

    I think the likely outcome is Sky holding the same amount of games and BT increasing theirs.

    This would suggest Sky end up with 112 games and BT go from 38 to 56. so sky would lose 2 games.
  • RagnarokRagnarok Posts: 4,655
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    mavreela wrote: »
    The agreement was completed in 2006 and applied to the auctions for the 2007-2010 and 2010-2013 rights periods, so the current contracts were the first agreed following its expiration.

    Despite the Premier League breaking the rights into packages for the 2004-2007 period, one broadcaster winning all of them that was a key factor in the European Commission feeling it still needed to intervene. Notwithstanding financial self interest, were the PL to abandon any of the principles of that agreement then the EC would take further action. Allowing one broadcaster exclusivity would certainly lead to a new investigation.

    Only if the premier league where continuing to limit the supply of game which they are.

    If like in Germany, Netherlands and Italy, Spain, France, etc, etc, all games, no limited supply, where on sale, the EC don't see the need to intervene there.

    Many of these countries used to or still have 1 channel provider with the rights to all of there domestic leagues games, no EU intervention their.

    I still think the premier league have missed a trick as I'm dead certain that if the premier league offered optional offer Exclusive 380 Live game package , should an offer be big enough be offered for that exclusivity, it would command a premium over the separate packages.
  • promo-onlypromo-only Posts: 3,315
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    Ragnarok wrote: »
    Only if the premier league where continuing to limit the supply of game which they are.

    If like in Germany, Netherlands and Italy, Spain, France, etc, etc, all games, no limited supply, where on sale, the EC don't see the need to intervene there.

    Many of these countries used to or still have 1 channel provider with the rights to all of there domestic leagues games, no EU intervention their.

    I still think the premier league have missed a trick as I'm dead certain that if the premier league offered optional offer Exclusive 380 Live game package , should an offer be big enough be offered for that exclusivity, it would command a premium over the separate packages.

    Considering the Premier League are head and shoulders above the other major European leagues in terms of broadcasting fees - both domestic and international - I'd hardly say they've missed a trick. In fact, I'd say they're doing the best business around.
  • casinoman13casinoman13 Posts: 7,062
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    pjex wrote: »
    This would suggest Sky end up with 112 games and BT go from 38 to 56. so sky would lose 2 games.

    I will be amazed if it ends up like that.
  • bottleofbestbottleofbest Posts: 8,026
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    Stumacher7 wrote: »
    Sunday Times also saying these are the four potential bidders and Friday is close of bids. Also says rights may top £4bn but BT may be hampered by their pension deficit and acquisition of EE

    BT sport, it's production and costs associated with BT Sport, i.e sports rights acquisitions are factored into their operational costs. Even with these costs, they still turn big profits, HUGE profits and these profits go towards such deficits, or purchases which can be spread over many years. They will have no effect on their ability to bid highly for PL rights.
    Plus BT has seen a massive 16% share price boost since they bought the last load of rights, which would be a big cash injection in itself and I would imagine if they do get better rights than last time it will grow again.

    If we look at it from your perspective, we could also argue that BSkyB could be hampered after their massive purchases of Sky Italia and Sky Deutschland which cost over £4bn which they paid for in cash. Cash!

    Both companies are speculating to accumulate. They are buying big companies, but they are buying big guaranteed incomes from these companies too. They all have big subscriber bases.
  • bottleofbestbottleofbest Posts: 8,026
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    I will be amazed if it ends up like that.
    Why? It's much more likely than Sky losing more games to either BT or another bidder.
    I think BT or another party could quite easily get more than 38 games this time round. Sky losing 2 games would not be some big loss, they will still be the lead broadcaster for PL football.
  • mlt11mlt11 Posts: 21,058
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    BT sport, it's production and costs associated with BT Sport, i.e sports rights acquisitions are factored into their operational costs. Even with these costs, they still turn big profits, HUGE profits and these profits go towards such deficits, or purchases which can be spread over many years. They will have no effect on their ability to bid highly for PL rights.
    Plus BT has seen a massive 16% share price boost since they bought the last load of rights, which would be a big cash injection in itself and I would imagine if they do get better rights than last time it will grow again.

    If we look at it from your perspective, we could also argue that BSkyB could be hampered after their massive purchases of Sky Italia and Sky Deutschland which cost over £4bn which they paid for in cash. Cash!

    Both companies are speculating to accumulate. They are buying big companies, but they are buying big guaranteed incomes from these companies too. They all have big subscriber bases.

    I would agree that the acquisitions of EE and Sky Italia / Deutschland don't really affect the situation - these are capital transactions whereas both BT and Sky will be looking to fund PL rights from current revenues.

    The BT pension fund deficit is a slightly different matter because clearing the deficit is partly to be funded by increased employer pension contributions which will mean a direct hit to the Profit and Loss account (ie current rather than capital).

    Two other points for the record:

    1) When a company's share price goes up it doesn't provide any injection of cash into a company at all. The share price is the price at which 3rd parties exchange shares in a company.

    If you own a Marks & Spencer share and sell it to me at a price, say £10, Marks and Spencer doesn't get a penny of that. I pay £10, you receive £10. If the price then goes up to £12, then I pay more and you receive more - but Marks & Spencer itself still doesn't get anything.

    A share price affects the owners of a company; not the company itself - unless it issues new shares.

    2) Sky did not fund its acquisition of Sky Italia / Deutschland from cash reserves - it was funded by a mix of new shares and debt (and some cash from the sale of a minority stake in National Geographic).
  • mavreelamavreela Posts: 4,676
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    Ragnarok wrote: »
    If like in Germany, Netherlands and Italy, Spain, France, etc, etc, all games, no limited supply, where on sale, the EC don't see the need to intervene there.

    Many of these countries used to or still have 1 channel provider with the rights to all of there domestic leagues games, no EU intervention their.

    I do not know about the Netherlands, but in none of those major economies are the rights sold to a single broadcaster. Either games are split between packages, include non-exclusive packages, or not sold collectively.

    The European Commission has also previously investigated in the collective sale of Bundesliga rights, they took no action though as the DFL commitment included a small non-exclusive package of games sold for fee-to-air broadcast.

    However they did not investigate on an occasion when French Ligue 1 rights for 2004-2008 were sold exclusively. But their said their their lack of action was because they had received no complaints about that auction. TPS, which previously shared rights with Canal+, decided the inflated cost at that auction were not viable so did not contest the outcome. They were subsequently bought by Vivendi and merged with CanalSat, and from the next auction France Télécom, who used to be a co-owner of TPS, won rights for their new Orange Sport service.

    Premier League rights to the UK are also worth around 50% more than broadcasters paid last year in Italy for Serie A, currently the next most valuable domestic rights in Europe. At the end of the current auction they could be worth as much as top flight domestic rights in Spain, France, and Germany combined, and double those in Italy.

    Were the Premier League to offer every game for live broadcast they would need to significantly reduce the value of their rights by almost half to just be comparable with other major economies. And even then any attempt to offer exclusivity would see intervention were someone like Virgin Media to complain that the cost of competing on such a basis distorts the market and hinders competition.
  • casinoman13casinoman13 Posts: 7,062
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    Why? It's much more likely than Sky losing more games to either BT or another bidder.
    I think BT or another party could quite easily get more than 38 games this time round. Sky losing 2 games would not be some big loss, they will still be the lead broadcaster for PL football.

    Don't get me wrong I would like to see Sky lose more games....but not just 2!!

    It would almost be like this extra package being created to keep both parties happy and that I just cant see with closed and sealed bids being put on the table.

    Sky, like the others, have mega money but just how far they are prepared to go remains to be seen.
    BT came out with an extraordinary amount of money for the Champion's League and totally surprised Sky, question is can they do it again?
  • bottleofbestbottleofbest Posts: 8,026
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    mlt11 wrote: »
    I would agree that the acquisitions of EE and Sky Italia / Deutschland don't really affect the situation - these are capital transactions whereas both BT and Sky will be looking to fund PL rights from current revenues.

    The BT pension fund deficit is a slightly different matter because clearing the deficit is partly to be funded by increased employer pension contributions which will mean a direct hit to the Profit and Loss account (ie current rather than capital).

    Two other points for the record:

    1) When a company's share price goes up it doesn't provide any injection of cash into a company at all. The share price is the price at which 3rd parties exchange shares in a company.

    If you own a Marks & Spencer share and sell it to me at a price, say £10, Marks and Spencer doesn't get a penny of that. I pay £10, you receive £10. If the price then goes up to £12, then I pay more and you receive more - but Marks & Spencer itself still doesn't get anything.

    A share price affects the owners of a company; not the company itself - unless it issues new shares.

    2) Sky did not fund its acquisition of Sky Italia / Deutschland from cash reserves - it was funded by a mix of new shares and debt (and some cash from the sale of a minority stake in National Geographic).

    I was going by a news article that said they paid cash for the companies that was all mate.:)
  • mlt11mlt11 Posts: 21,058
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    I was going by a news article that said they paid cash for the companies that was all mate.:)

    It's a question of what you mean by "paying cash".

    If you buy a house funded by a mortgage of course you ultimately pay cash in the sense that the vendor gets cash. But you haven't used cash which was previously sitting in your own bank account - you have obtained a mortgage from a lender and then used that loan to in turn pay the vendor (in cash!).

    NB. Obviously you may have had some cash already yourself - ie the mortgage would not (normally!) be 100%.

    When Sky bought Sky Italia / Deutschland they did as above - they got the funding from a mix of new shares, debt and the sale of National Geographic - not from cash already in their own bank account.
  • bottleofbestbottleofbest Posts: 8,026
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    Don't get me wrong I would like to see Sky lose more games....but not just 2!!

    It would almost be like this extra package being created to keep both parties happy and that I just cant see with closed and sealed bids being put on the table.

    Sky, like the others, have mega money but just how far they are prepared to go remains to be seen.
    BT came out with an extraordinary amount of money for the Champion's League and totally surprised Sky, question is can they do it again?

    Oh right, I misunderstood mate. I too hope they lose a lot more than two. It would be a huge shock to the market and both companies would have to make massive changes to the way they do business. I don't have BT services myself, but seeing as I worked for them awhile back for a short term before falling ill, and having worked for Virgin Media during the days of Virgin1 and Sky subsequently pulling Sky one and the shit storm it caused for us, I would like to Sky knocked off their perch and I hope BT are the ones to do it!

    If BT are happy to fork out so much for CL rights, I personally think this signals their intentions for PL rights too for a number of factors which would take me forever to list lol.
    The CL whilst all well and good, the PL is the cream of the crop and this what drives subscribers and customers to services. It is the single most important sporting league in this country and other countries too.
    We all know Sky built their company and made it a success from the Premier League.

    BTtv is behind the likes of even TalkTalk, if BT want to become a truly competitive quad play leader, then they need to do something to make people take notice and switch, what better way than sport?
  • channelsurferchannelsurfer Posts: 362
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    I think (pure speculation of course) that BT will not go all out. the soundings suggest a targeted bid on specific packs. Obviously they will have to bid for every pack in case their strategy for their specific packs does not come to fruit, but I see them targeting the saturday pm and sunday 1.30 packs as priority with bids for the other packs not reaching the stratosphere that the others would want it to.
    BT would be happy to let sky bid crazy money for all the packs, knowing that they(BT) can bid agressively for the ones they see as priority. anyway just my theory, time will tell.
  • bottleofbestbottleofbest Posts: 8,026
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    mlt11 wrote: »
    It's a question of what you mean by "paying cash".

    If you buy a house funded by a mortgage of course you ultimately pay cash in the sense that the vendor gets cash. But you haven't used cash which was previously sitting in your own bank account - you have obtained a mortgage from a lender and then used that loan to in turn pay the vendor (in cash!).

    NB. Obviously you may have had some cash already yourself - ie the mortgage would not (normally!) be 100%.

    When Sky bought Sky Italia / Deutschland they did as above - they got the funding from a mix of new shares, debt and the sale of National Geographic - not from cash already in their own bank account.

    Thanks for clarifying.:)
  • bottleofbestbottleofbest Posts: 8,026
    Forum Member
    I think (pure speculation of course) that BT will not go all out. the soundings suggest a targeted bid on specific packs. Obviously they will have to bid for every pack in case their strategy for their specific packs does not come to fruit, but I see them targeting the saturday pm and sunday 1.30 packs as priority with bids for the other packs not reaching the stratosphere that the others would want it to.
    BT would be happy to let sky bid crazy money for all the packs, knowing that they(BT) can bid agressively for the ones they see as priority. anyway just my theory, time will tell.

    I love all this speculation though, it's made for some great reading over these years.:)
    I can't wait to find out who has won what though and I really hope we know by two weeks!
  • Spiros_RedSpiros_Red Posts: 711
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    On sky this morning on the Sunday Supplement programme one of the journo's (Rob Draper from the Mail on Sunday) said it was expected we'd know this week who'd been successful.

    Before anyone jumps on me to say "the bids don't close until Friday so that won't happen" i'm only repeating what was said :D
  • neyney Posts: 12,516
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    I would not mind if Eurosport ended up with at last one or two packages for I get Eurosport with the BT TV entertainment package on Youview.
    I do think the main two will be Sky and BT with BT picking up at last one more package to add to what they already have.
    I do watch the EPL on BT but I don't watch every game they show.
    BT as I have said elsewhere need to improve there commentary for there EPL games a little more.

    Darren
  • casinoman13casinoman13 Posts: 7,062
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    Spiros_Red wrote: »
    On sky this morning on the Sunday Supplement programme one of the journo's (Rob Draper from the Mail on Sunday) said it was expected we'd know this week who'd been successful.

    Before anyone jumps on me to say "the bids don't close until Friday so that won't happen" i'm only repeating what was said :D

    Glad someone else heard that because I thought I misheard when I heard that this morning.

    Cant see it myself unless that closing dates are wrong or only BT and Sky have bid so clear winners have already been decided.
  • THOMOTHOMO Posts: 7,446
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    I wonder what all these BT Sports subscribers who think BT Sport will end up with more Premier Football, after the auction, but do not. What will they say then and what if BT Sport actually end up with less Premier League Football than at present?
    Ian.
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