Who was most to blame for getting Doctor Who axed in 1989?

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  • nydernyder Posts: 980
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    Stever7 wrote: »
    As I said, I'm not arguing agains that, indeed I agree with it :D My point originally was that people not watching it was almost certainly the reason it was ditched, even if there are reasons why people didn't watch.

    Thinking how best to explain. Ok, let's say our car has just stopped working, the question being asked by the AA is "Why has your car stopped?". The answer? There's no petrol in it. That's simply it. However, the reason there's no fuel it in is because I was a wally and forgot to fill up. To me the question being asked in this thread was akin to "Why has your car stopped?" and so I gave my answer to it. However I do agree there are reasons why people turned away from it.

    :(


    That's like someone asking why we went to war in 1939 and answering, because Britain declared war on Germany. That would lay the responsibility of WW2 on Britains doorstep and remove the responsibility from Germany/Hitler. It would be an incredibly simplistic, silly and insulting answer.

    Yes, people stopped watching. But the question is where the responsibility lies. You cannot lay that responsibilty on the poor viewers because the BBC had no faith in the programme, hated the programme, injected no money into the programme and did everything within their power to destroy it.

    RTD did an interesting interview in DWM a few years ago. It turns out he was in a meeting at the BBC for new/young writers etc.. in the late 1980's. The meeting was hosted by some 'high-up' person from BBC management. At the end of the meeting he opened it up for questions. RTD asked him why the BBC had moved Dr Who opposite Coronation Street where it would be unable to gain viewers. The manager gave a wry smile and replied 'Deliberate suicide'.

    The BBC management, very deliberately, killed the programme. Not one person is to blamed.
  • daveyboy7472daveyboy7472 Posts: 16,354
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    nyder wrote: »
    That's like someone asking why we went to war in 1939 and answering, because Britain declared war on Germany. That would lay the responsibility of WW2 on Britains doorstep and remove the responsibility from Germany/Hitler. It would be an incredibly simplistic, silly and insulting answer.

    Yes, people stopped watching. But the question is where the responsibility lies. You cannot lay that responsibilty on the poor viewers because the BBC had no faith in the programme, hated the programme, injected no money into the programme and did everything within their power to destroy it.

    RTD did an interesting interview in DWM a few years ago. It turns out he was in a meeting at the BBC for new/young writers etc.. in the late 1980's. The meeting was hosted by some 'high-up' person from BBC management. At the end of the meeting he opened it up for questions. RTD asked him why the BBC had moved Dr Who opposite Coronation Street where it would be unable to gain viewers. The manager gave a wry smile and replied 'Deliberate suicide'.

    The BBC management, very deliberately, killed the programme. Not one person is to blamed.

    What would have been very interesting about that is if it had backfired and the show increased viewers as a result. The look on their faces would have been a joy to see and I wonder what the result of that would have been!

    :D
  • steven1977steven1977 Posts: 3,968
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    I wish that it was 1985 now because Grade certenly wouldnt get away with it in this day and age. Im suprised Colin didnt sue him. You cant sack someone because you dont like the person just over a ex wife wants someone sacked.
  • MulettMulett Posts: 9,055
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    steven1977 wrote: »
    I wish that it was 1985 now because Grade certenly wouldnt get away with it in this day and age. Im suprised Colin didnt sue him. You cant sack someone because you dont like the person just over a ex wife wants someone sacked.

    Gosh, yes. Can you imagine the Twitter campaign alone!

    People in the media must HATE social networking. Its given so much more power to the public and proves how powerful a weapon information is!

    You can now set up a Facebook page to campaign for something and you can SEE how many people are backing you.

    Back in 1985, we all wrote our letters independent of each other. We had no way to know how many letters were written, how to coordinate a campaign . . . I love living in the future!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 198
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    nyder wrote: »
    RTD did an interesting interview in DWM a few years ago. It turns out he was in a meeting at the BBC for new/young writers etc.. in the late 1980's. The meeting was hosted by some 'high-up' person from BBC management. At the end of the meeting he opened it up for questions. RTD asked him why the BBC had moved Dr Who opposite Coronation Street where it would be unable to gain viewers. The manager gave a wry smile and replied 'Deliberate suicide'.

    Deliberate suicide? I didn't know there was any other kind! But it's hardly surprising, given that it was the crass, consumerist 80s, when Grade and his ilk seemed more interested in churning out soap operas, chat shows and bland, lowest common denominator tripe than making decent-quality drama. I suspect the executives' priority was to make the cheapest TV possible, in order to hoard up the license fee cash and use it to lure big name celebs away from ITV or lavish perks, bonuses and raises on themselves.
  • MeissteMeisste Posts: 233
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    JN-T and Andrew Cartmel's door, in the case of Time and the Rani, Silver Nemesis and The Happiness Patrol...

    After the suspension in 1985 and Colin Baker's subsequent sacking, Doctor Who really needed people who weren't either total amateurs or washed-up in charge to get in back on its feet. The BBC got that right in 2004 by giving the top job to someone with a proven track record of making successful and critically-acclaimed TV. In 1986 they obviously weren't bothered who was running the show.

    I do know that Cartmell was script editor circa Paradise Towers. I didnt mention him because I think he had the right idea on how the show could be great again. However by the time he came onboard it was too late, the show had no support, its reputation was in tatters, the show was scheduled against Corrie, and Sylvestor's opener Time and the Rani sent out all the wrong messages to the public about Sylvestor's doctor (this wasnt Cartmell's fault at all)
    Two bad storries out of 11 isn't bad going though. And had these stories gone out in the 70's they would have done the show little or no damage, but at this point the show couldnt afford to make any mistakes (the saying s**t sticks springs to mind)
  • steven1977steven1977 Posts: 3,968
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    Mulett wrote: »
    Gosh, yes. Can you imagine the Twitter campaign alone!

    People in the media must HATE social networking. Its given so much more power to the public and proves how powerful a weapon information is!

    You can now set up a Facebook page to campaign for something and you can SEE how many people are backing you.

    Back in 1985, we all wrote our letters independent of each other. We had no way to know how many letters were written, how to coordinate a campaign . . . I love living in the future!

    Id still love to read that newspaper interview.

    Still im suprised no fan went postal. Grade certenly must of had eyes in the back of his head.

    Wouldnt of suprised me at all if a fan had gone JFK/Oswald.
  • rip & striprip & strip Posts: 433
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    steven1977 wrote: »

    Wouldnt of suprised me at all if a fan had gone JFK/Oswald.


    Way to go if you wanted it permanently binned, 2005+ included.
  • steven1977steven1977 Posts: 3,968
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    Way to go if you wanted it permanently binned, 2005+ included.

    Not necessarily theirs been plenty of JFK docs.

    Didnt stop the BBC from making a red Dwarf story of it.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 198
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    Meisste wrote: »
    I do know that Cartmell was script editor circa Paradise Towers. I didnt mention him because I think he had the right idea on how the show could be great again. However by the time he came onboard it was too late, the show had no support, its reputation was in tatters, the show was scheduled against Corrie, and Sylvestor's opener Time and the Rani sent out all the wrong messages to the public about Sylvestor's doctor (this wasnt Cartmell's fault at all)
    Two bad storries out of 11 isn't bad going though. And had these stories gone out in the 70's they would have done the show little or no damage, but at this point the show couldnt afford to make any mistakes (the saying s**t sticks springs to mind)

    You mentioned three, but I think there were a lot more than that. Season 24 was always going to be a bit sloppy, what with Cartmel taking over as script editor at such short notice and having to work with some things that had already been decided, but Season 25 was when he got to do his own thing and make his mark on the series. Result? The only decent thing I can remember about it is Daleks blowing lots of stuff up, including other Daleks. Season 25 was when JN-T and Andrew Cartmel got the chance to show that Doctor Who was worth keeping on the air, and they blew it. I think it was Jonathan Powell who said in that interview that in the late 80s no one at the BBC knew what to do with Doctor Who, and he was absolutely right. As for Cartmel's ideas? I'm broadly familiar with the "Cartmel Masterplan" and the plot of Lungbarrow (although I have better things to do than ever actually read it), and I think they're the most horrible, grotesquely ill-conceived ideas anyone working on the series has ever come up with. I'm not crazy about Ghostlight, but thank goodness JN-T made them pull Lungbarrow and put that on instead.
  • steven1977steven1977 Posts: 3,968
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    Season 1990 could of been Cartmel's best season ever!
  • rip & striprip & strip Posts: 433
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    steven1977 wrote: »
    Season 1990 could of been Cartmel's best season ever!


    (it's 'could have')


    It's now been released by Big Finish.
  • Residents FanResidents Fan Posts: 9,204
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    Listentome wrote: »
    I actually think that might have been the case with season 24, and am surprised it made it to 26 on the basis of that season. However, season 26 showed that it was more than capable of going forward with good stories and a darker angle.

    "Ghost Light" and "Survival" are two excellent stories, but
    there's no doubt the BBC didn't want "Doctor Who" to
    continue in its current form-it was an anarchronism
    in TV terms (it was a "series of serials", a format that
    British TV had given up on, DW aside, with the
    end of "Sapphire and Steel" ).

    Jonathan Powell was the controllor of BBC One then, but
    it was actually Peter Cregeen who cancelled it. However,
    Cregeen did try and support "The Dark Dimension", so
    his motive was "DW isn't working in its current
    format", rather than "this show is s*** and is eating
    up money we need for El Dorado ". :D
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 198
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    steven1977 wrote: »
    Season 1990 could of been Cartmel's best season ever!

    Possibly - it's not like it would have had any serious competition.
  • steven1977steven1977 Posts: 3,968
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    Possibly - it's not like it would have had any serious competition.

    I think they should of been allowed to do the final season seeing as McCoy was obviously going to leave after this time. Just a shame we cant go back and stop it from happenning.

    Yeah they did it on audio but id rather have it on film.
  • MeissteMeisste Posts: 233
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    You mentioned three, but I think there were a lot more than that. Season 24 was always going to be a bit sloppy, what with Cartmel taking over as script editor at such short notice and having to work with some things that had already been decided, but Season 25 was when he got to do his own thing and make his mark on the series. Result? The only decent thing I can remember about it is Daleks blowing lots of stuff up, including other Daleks. Season 25 was when JN-T and Andrew Cartmel got the chance to show that Doctor Who was worth keeping on the air, and they blew it. I think it was Jonathan Powell who said in that interview that in the late 80s no one at the BBC knew what to do with Doctor Who, and he was absolutely right. As for Cartmel's ideas? I'm broadly familiar with the "Cartmel Masterplan" and the plot of Lungbarrow (although I have better things to do than ever actually read it), and I think they're the most horrible, grotesquely ill-conceived ideas anyone working on the series has ever come up with. I'm not crazy about Ghostlight, but thank goodness JN-T made them pull Lungbarrow and put that on instead.

    Cartmell did a number of good things for the show. He got rid of the constant continuity references, made the Doctor dark again and brought in Ace a companion that was more modern and edgy. (The execution of her character was a bit off the mark but the generall idea was spot on and exactly what the series needed). With regards to season 24 Paradise Towers, Delta and Dragonfire do have their faults but they did show that the show was progressing, it had reached rock bottom in my opionion during the Trial season and Time and the Rani, and these three adventures showed a vast improvement in quality, Season 25 had the Greatest Show in the Galaxy which wouldnt have been out of place in 70's Who.

    Cartmell's era had some great visuals, Ace battering Daleks, Ace battering Cybermen, The Emperor Dalek revealing himself to be Davros, The Herse roaming the Desert in Greatest Show, The Doctor blowing the pyscic circus up, The Destroyer, The Haemovores rising up from the see. To me the whole era is a marked improvement on the Saward era, the show just looks a lot better and has better ideas flowing around in the scripts. It was like the show had gotten out of its teenage angst stage and became an adult.
  • ListentomeListentome Posts: 9,804
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    "Ghost Light" and "Survival" are two excellent stories, but
    there's no doubt the BBC didn't want "Doctor Who" to
    continue in its current form-it was an anarchronism
    in TV terms (it was a "series of serials", a format that
    British TV had given up on, DW aside, with the
    end of "Sapphire and Steel" ).

    Jonathan Powell was the controllor of BBC One then, but
    it was actually Peter Cregeen who cancelled it. However,
    Cregeen did try and support "The Dark Dimension", so
    his motive was "DW isn't working in its current
    format", rather than "this show is s*** and is eating
    up money we need for El Dorado ". :D

    This thread made me rewatch the documentaries about it on The Ultimate Foe and Survival extras. I would recommend anyone interested in this topic to watch them. I had forgotten about Cregeen.
  • rip & striprip & strip Posts: 433
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    Listentome wrote: »
    This thread made me rewatch the documentaries about it on The Ultimate Foe and Survival extras. I would recommend anyone interested in this topic to watch them. I had forgotten about Cregeen.

    I still feel JP is the common denominator in 1985 and 1989, thus I feel he is the most phobic.
  • rip & striprip & strip Posts: 433
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    steven1977 wrote: »
    I think they should of been allowed to do the final season seeing as McCoy was obviously going to leave after this time. Just a shame we cant go back and stop it from happenning.

    Yeah they did it on audio but id rather have it on film.

    A new Doctor was planned for 1990, but I don't think Sylvester wanted it to end in 1989.
  • Residents FanResidents Fan Posts: 9,204
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    Listentome wrote: »
    This thread made me rewatch the documentaries about it on The Ultimate Foe and Survival extras. I would recommend anyone interested in this topic to watch them. I had forgotten about Cregeen.

    I think it's interesting that Cregeen didn't actually reveal
    this fact until around 2007, when the show had returned.
    Maybe he was afraid of getting hate mail from the
    extremist wing of DW fandom?
  • SillyBillyGoatSillyBillyGoat Posts: 22,266
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    I voted "Other".

    BARROWMAN! *shakes fist*
  • steven1977steven1977 Posts: 3,968
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    A new Doctor was planned for 1990, but I don't think Sylvester wanted it to end in 1989.

    As far as im aware Syl was due to do his 4th and final season in 1990 only for Richard griffiths to take over as the Doctor!

    Sadly it never happenned and thus us Ace fans are annoyed she didnt get a proper sendoff.
  • rip & striprip & strip Posts: 433
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    steven1977 wrote: »

    Sadly it never happenned and thus us Ace fans are annoyed she didnt get a proper sendoff.

    I think Ace was written out too. She was never quite what she was meant to be,
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 198
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    Meisste wrote: »
    Cartmell did a number of good things for the show. He got rid of the constant continuity references,

    Really? I thought Remembrance of the Daleks and Silver Nemesis were loaded with continuity porn. And they both had basically the same plot.
    "...made the Doctor dark again"

    Colin Baker did "dark" perfectly well in Mindwarp. When Sylvester McCoy tried to do dark it was ridiculous, mainly because in Season 24 he'd been anything but.
    "...and brought in Ace a companion that was more modern and edgy. (The execution of her character was a bit off the mark but the generall idea was spot on and exactly what the series needed).

    A bit off the mark? I'd say widely off the mark. I just couldn't believe in her or identify with her at all. A teenage delinquent bomb-maker who gets zapped across time and space to an ice planet where she meets the Doctor? I don't know many people like that.
    With regards to season 24 Paradise Towers, Delta and Dragonfire do have their faults but they did show that the show was progressing, it had reached rock bottom in my opionion during the Trial season and Time and the Rani, and these three adventures showed a vast improvement in quality, Season 25 had the Greatest Show in the Galaxy which wouldnt have been out of place in 70's Who.

    Indeed, it would have fitted alongside nicely with Underworld or The Horns of Nimon. 70's Who was not all good.
    Cartmell's era had some great visuals, Ace battering Daleks, Ace battering Cybermen, The Emperor Dalek revealing himself to be Davros, The Herse roaming the Desert in Greatest Show, The Doctor blowing the pyscic circus up, The Destroyer, The Haemovores rising up from the see.

    Star Wars Ep.1 had some nice visuals as well. Doesn't stop it from being rubbish.
    To me the whole era is a marked improvement on the Saward era, the show just looks a lot better and has better ideas flowing around in the scripts. It was like the show had gotten out of its teenage angst stage and became an adult.

    Becoming an adult is over-rated. I would agree that there were good intentions and some good ideas about story arcs and long-term character development, but I think the implementation was absolutely terrible. There is not a single story from Seasons 24-26 I would ever want to watch again, it would just make me feel embarrassed that I ever watched them in the first place.
  • MeissteMeisste Posts: 233
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    Every Who fan has an era they like and dislike. And to me McCoy's period was a decent stretch. Remembrance, Greatest Show, Ghost Light and Fenric are some of my favourite stories. I even like Delta and Paradise Towers :/ but I wouldnt like to watch them with non who fans haha. And there's a big difference between McCoy's dark mysterious doctor to Collin's brutaly violent Doctor in his first three stories.
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