How do you know it is accurate to that margin ? First you would need to know what the 60 million were actually watching and then compare the BARB figure.We know BARB underestimates audiences for big events because it cannot compute people watching in pubs and other public places (I'm thinking of big football matches, big and sudden news stories).
I posted the formula - you don't need to know the total population to work out the margin of error.
so either you're wrong, or the universally accepted maths is wrong.
A formula needs a key in order to work and you keep refusing to share it with us :rolleyes:
I strongly suspect that if you bother to look in a text book for statistics you'll find the basic formula - but it may not be that easy to read as whilst the margin of error etc is relatively easy to express the way you reach that and the variables won't be.
I say this as the basic formula is used for all sorts of things with a relatively small number of variables changed depending on what stats you're trying to collect (things like population stats will remain the same if you're trying to find out what newspapers are read, etc).
The amusing thing when people question the BARB stats is that they make the assumption that either:
The whole area of statistics is wrong or that BARB are pulling the wool over the eyes of an industry that also IIRC performs it's own independent surveys from time to time.
Not sure what you mean - there is no percentage in the formula.
Iain
Ah right so you are now admitting it doesn't matter who has Sky, Cable Analogue, IPTV etc because the formula will work that out amongst everything else. Wow you could give Einstein a run for his money back then :rolleyes:
The amusing thing when people question the BARB stats is that they make the assumption that either:
The whole area of statistics is wrong or that BARB are pulling the wool over the eyes of an industry that also IIRC performs it's own independent surveys from time to time.
Ive said this before, but can we not question the BARB figures, it becomes impossible to discuss anything if you take them off the table.
lets just assume that they are reasonable, and until one of the broadcasters thinks it should be changed, that they are happy with them.
Ah right so you are now admitting it doesn't matter who has Sky, Cable Analogue, IPTV etc because the formula will work that out amongst everything else. Wow you could give Einstein a run for his money back then :rolleyes:
i didn't admit that at all.
i told you earlier that BARB use as representative a sample as possible.
from their website :
Panel homes are selected via a multi-stage, stratified and un-clustered sample design so that the panel is representative of all television households across the whole of the UK. A range of individual and household characteristics are deployed as panel controls to ensure that the panel remains representative. As estimates for the large majority of panel controls are not available from Census data it is necessary to conduct a bespoke survey (the Establishment Survey) to obtain this information.
so just to be clear - are you saying you accept the formula, but think that BARB are part of some conspiracy with the BBC, to make it look as though people watch the BBC, when in fact you know differently?
So show us what this sample is and we can put this to bed, That or you can keep guessing your right without evidence
i'm not guessing.
its right there in black and white :
'Panel homes are selected via a multi-stage, stratified and un-clustered sample design so that the panel is representative of all television households across the whole of the UK. A range of individual and household characteristics are deployed as panel controls to ensure that the panel remains representative. As estimates for the large majority of panel controls are not available from Census data it is necessary to conduct a bespoke survey (the Establishment Survey) to obtain this information.'
if you want to argue that BARB are lying, its up to you to demonstrate that they are lying.
and maybe even suggest some reasons as to why they are lying.
but if 40% of the population has Sky, then 40% of the sample will have Sky.
Sky has all the channels and so if BARB used them the figures would be more accurate however if their using more FREEview then obviously it wont be accurate.
You have admitted you don't really know what their using which means the figures cannot be trusted end off
The BARB figures are flawed though, yes the principle of the maths may make sense but in practice its much more complicated. For starters Barb relies on each family member selecting themselves on the remote every time they use it, so barb know which age groups are watching. They often forget or can't be arsed.
Or if they don't use that remote and just watch on the TV's built in freeview/freesat tuner it won't record any viewing data.
Another thing is according to barb many satellite channels get zero viewers, but have people texting in and calling that keeps them in business. So barb may say they have no viewers but they clearly do else the channel would close.
Barb may have worked in the days when we only had 4 analogue channels, these days its becoming useless as there are more channels than people with barb boxes.
Sky has all the channels and so if BARB used them the figures would be more accurate however if their using more FREEview then obviously it wont be accurate.
You have admitted you don't really know what their using which means the figures cannot be trusted end off
As all the broadcasters use (and pay for) the BARB figures why do you not believe them?
The BARB figures are flawed though, yes the principle of the maths may make sense but in practice its much more complicated. For starters Barb relies on each family member selecting themselves on the remote every time they use it, so barb know which age groups are watching. They often forget or can't be arsed.
Or if they don't use that remote and just watch on the TV's built in freeview/freesat tuner it won't record any viewing data.
Another thing is according to barb many satellite channels get zero viewers, but have people texting in and calling that keeps them in business. So barb may say they have no viewers but they clearly do else the channel would close.
Barb may have worked in the days when we only had 4 analogue channels, these days its becoming useless as there are more channels than people with barb boxes.
So everyone needs to say sorry to The-Salfordian
i don't think they do - any problems with BARB figures are to do with extremely low figures, which are, in statistical terms, verging on negligible anyway.
Salfordian is clearly trying to suggest that BARB figures which show that the BBC is watched as much as it is, are to all intent and purpose pure fantasy.
i don't think they do - any problems with BARB figures are to do with extremely low figures, which are, in statistical terms, verging on negligible anyway.
Salfordian is clearly trying to suggest that BARB figures which show that the BBC is watched as much as it is, are to all intent and purpose pure fantasy.
Iain
As ITV and BBC have similar figures they must both be wrong.
i don't think they do - any problems with BARB figures are to do with extremely low figures, which are, in statistical terms, verging on negligible anyway.
Salfordian is clearly trying to suggest that BARB figures which show that the BBC is watched as much as it is, are to all intent and purpose pure fantasy.
Iain
The smaller number of viewers then the greater the error and at some point it becomes impossible to give an accurate figure so they just say "less than xxxxx" viewers which the newspapers then report as "no one watched" a particular channel or programme.
It seems very unlikely that BARB would exaggerate the number of BBC viewers because their customers mainly want to know how many watched the commercial channels.
I personally think the abolition of the BBC TV Licence would help the commercial sector because the BBC would no longer have a huge & unfair advantage over them
Well it certainly wouldn't help Sky as their turnover is already more than that of the BBC's; by around £1.1bn if memory serves
Comments
I posted the formula - you don't need to know the total population to work out the margin of error.
so either you're wrong, or the universally accepted maths is wrong.
Iain
A formula needs a key in order to work and you keep refusing to share it with us :rolleyes:
Nope - a formula just needs the variables to use.
Are you saying the formula I posted is wrong?
Iain
If the % of those 1500 households is wrong then the results will also be wrong. Obviously maths isn't your forty
do you accept that the correct formula actually is :
the margin of error in a sample = 1 divided by the square root of the number of people in the sample
or do you think the statisticians have gotten it wrong?
Iain
I strongly suspect that if you bother to look in a text book for statistics you'll find the basic formula - but it may not be that easy to read as whilst the margin of error etc is relatively easy to express the way you reach that and the variables won't be.
I say this as the basic formula is used for all sorts of things with a relatively small number of variables changed depending on what stats you're trying to collect (things like population stats will remain the same if you're trying to find out what newspapers are read, etc).
The amusing thing when people question the BARB stats is that they make the assumption that either:
The whole area of statistics is wrong or that BARB are pulling the wool over the eyes of an industry that also IIRC performs it's own independent surveys from time to time.
Ah right so you are now admitting it doesn't matter who has Sky, Cable Analogue, IPTV etc because the formula will work that out amongst everything else. Wow you could give Einstein a run for his money back then :rolleyes:
lets just assume that they are reasonable, and until one of the broadcasters thinks it should be changed, that they are happy with them.
Other than the BBCs forthcoming +7 ratings
i didn't admit that at all.
i told you earlier that BARB use as representative a sample as possible.
from their website :
Panel homes are selected via a multi-stage, stratified and un-clustered sample design so that the panel is representative of all television households across the whole of the UK. A range of individual and household characteristics are deployed as panel controls to ensure that the panel remains representative. As estimates for the large majority of panel controls are not available from Census data it is necessary to conduct a bespoke survey (the Establishment Survey) to obtain this information.
BARB faqs
so just to be clear - are you saying you accept the formula, but think that BARB are part of some conspiracy with the BBC, to make it look as though people watch the BBC, when in fact you know differently?
is that it?
Iain
So show us what this sample is and we can put this to bed, That or you can keep guessing your right without evidence
i'm not guessing.
its right there in black and white :
'Panel homes are selected via a multi-stage, stratified and un-clustered sample design so that the panel is representative of all television households across the whole of the UK. A range of individual and household characteristics are deployed as panel controls to ensure that the panel remains representative. As estimates for the large majority of panel controls are not available from Census data it is necessary to conduct a bespoke survey (the Establishment Survey) to obtain this information.'
if you want to argue that BARB are lying, its up to you to demonstrate that they are lying.
and maybe even suggest some reasons as to why they are lying.
the floor is all yours....
Iain
Instead of ignoring the question (& members can see you doing it) why not tell us the figures BARB are using then.
What % of Sky, Freeview, Cable IPTV etc do they use in those 1500 households.
Ignore the question again and we have you bang to rights
i don't need to know exactly how many they are using, i just need to know that the sample is representative, which i have no doubt that it is.
but if 40% of the population has Sky, then 40% of the sample will have Sky.
again, the floor is yours if you want to say why you don't believe what BARB say...
Iain
Sky has all the channels and so if BARB used them the figures would be more accurate however if their using more FREEview then obviously it wont be accurate.
You have admitted you don't really know what their using which means the figures cannot be trusted end off
its all explained in there.
whether you choose to accept it, or remain cynical / paranoid about it, that's entirely up to you.
Iain
So if BARB said the BBC TV Licence should be scrapped you'd agree with them :rolleyes:
Iain
If Spinal Tap said the licence fee should we listen to them/
Or if they don't use that remote and just watch on the TV's built in freeview/freesat tuner it won't record any viewing data.
Another thing is according to barb many satellite channels get zero viewers, but have people texting in and calling that keeps them in business. So barb may say they have no viewers but they clearly do else the channel would close.
Barb may have worked in the days when we only had 4 analogue channels, these days its becoming useless as there are more channels than people with barb boxes.
So everyone needs to say sorry to The-Salfordian
As all the broadcasters use (and pay for) the BARB figures why do you not believe them?
i don't think they do - any problems with BARB figures are to do with extremely low figures, which are, in statistical terms, verging on negligible anyway.
Salfordian is clearly trying to suggest that BARB figures which show that the BBC is watched as much as it is, are to all intent and purpose pure fantasy.
Iain
As ITV and BBC have similar figures they must both be wrong.
The smaller number of viewers then the greater the error and at some point it becomes impossible to give an accurate figure so they just say "less than xxxxx" viewers which the newspapers then report as "no one watched" a particular channel or programme.
It seems very unlikely that BARB would exaggerate the number of BBC viewers because their customers mainly want to know how many watched the commercial channels.
mmm, spelling doesn't seem to one of yours.....:)