My daughter is married to a dutch man and they have a much more practical approach to end of life care which i wish we would adopt but far too many right wing christians here for it ever to get off the ground.............The same right wing christians who are happy to take medication to prolong life but that doesn't seem to dawn on them that that is also interfering in God's hand
I am strongly opposed to euthanasia as are most of the nurses and doctors that I know. I for one am certainly not a 'right wing' christian. most of the staff in the NHS are resolutely left wing. It is possible to have strong moral and ethical views without being a christian. I was born and raised as catholic but am not practising so I am christian in name only.
Doctors and nurses are happy to administer medication that aids and improves life quality and I just can't understand how you fail to see the difference between giving drugs to help people to live and giving a drug that will kill That's quite a difference!
this is a really tricky situation. If there is no hope of the patient recovering and going on to enjoy a modest quality of life then part of me can see from a medical perspective that the 'kind' thing to do would be to withdraw treatment. As far as I know patients on the LCP are on so much medication they are, to all intents and purposes, on their journey home.
very, very sad situation but i think it should be a last resort and only implemented by an independent doctor just like when life support equipment is removed.
i can 100% see how the James family are upset - imaging your dad going into hospital sick but nonetheless in good shape only to end up catching an infection and then being in the situation they're in now. I really do feel so upset for them and hope they get some answers that they deserve.
just finally i feel sorry for all those in hospital who dont have friends and family supporting them - i fear many people are being killed off on the LCP on a daily basis.
I visited my grandmother daily whilst she was there and was reassured by a doctor that there was absolutely nothing to worry about. My grandmother had a blockage, probably Gaul stones and this was a relatively simple procedure.
I continued visiting my grandmother and noticed one day that there was a nil by mouth sign above her bed. I assumed they were prepping her for theater and thought nothing of it at the time.
A few days later and she was still nil by mouth and obviously getting worse. We felt frustrated and angry and couldn't get anything out of the staff there. The doctor I spoke to wished me well and said that he was going on holiday and I never saw him again.
After about a week my grandmother was seriously ill. Every time I visited her she begged me for water and I did try to give her some but was told off by a nurse, again I never questioned it but was incredibly upset and frustrated how a dying woman couldn't even have a drink of water.
We were told that she in the last stages and they would need permission to administer palliative care.
The fact that my grandmother could, according to a doctor, have possibly been treated successfully but they instead chose to end her life was distressful, .
First of all, I am sorry for the loss of your grandmother. On reading your post it does not seem like your grandmother was on the LCP during the early stages of her admission or even when she was initially placed nil by mouth. Gall stones can lead to a very serious condition called pancreatitis which carries a high mortality rate, particularly in the elderly, because it causes other organs to fail. Feeding the gut worsens the condition because the pancreas plays a vital role in food digestion. Surgery is not an option for this particular condition, resting the bowel, intravenous fluids, control of blood sugar and strong pain killing medication is how it's treated in the hope that the inflammation settles down so that, in due course, the gall stones can be removed surgically. Even if she did not have pancreatitis her bowel would have been rested because of severe inflammation of the gall bladder caused by the gall stones. Did your grandmother have an intraveneous drip going when you first noticed the nil by mouth sign? The nurses should have allowed you to wet/moisten your grandmother's mouth.
It seems like you received very inadequate information from the medical and nursing staff but perhaps they were mainly passing on the necessary information to your grandmother's next of kin, presumably your mother? You should ask to see the cause of death on your grandmother's death certificate, this will help clarify what in fact happened with your grandmother.
No doctor ever chooses to end some one's life. Once it becomes evident that continuing treatment is futile because of the overwhelming illness and failure to respond to said treatment, meetings and discussions take place with other medical professionals and with family members to decide what is the course of action that constitutes the best interests of the patient. I have never personally known of any patient placed on the LCP without the full knowledge and consent of the patient's family and I am sorry if this appears to be the case in some hospitals. It's certainly not my own experience of the LCP but I find that most doctors are, in fact, reluctant to use it and will continue putting patients through heroic, invasive and unpleasant treatments and procedures until the patient eventually dies a rather unpleasant death.
Patients are not being ''killed off by the LCP on a daily basis'' and some people need to stop believing everything they read in the hysterical right wing press. If anything, as others have said here, some patients are placed too late on the LCP, having undergone weeks of unpleasant, hopeless and futile treatments.
I am strongly opposed to euthanasia as are most of the nurses and doctors that I know. I for one am certainly not a 'right wing' christian. most of the staff in the NHS are resolutely left wing. It is possible to have strong moral and ethical views without being a christian. I was born and raised as catholic but am not practising so I am christian in name only.
Doctors and nurses are happy to administer medication that aids and improves life quality and I just can't understand how you fail to see the difference between giving drugs to help people to live and giving a drug that will kill That's quite a difference!
But I wasn't actually talking about euthanasia although they do have controlled euthanasia in Holland. I was more referring to the LCP care at end of life. No one in Holland dies an undignified death which would have been the case for my father if the doctor hadn't given him medication.
I have had to put down two very old cats which was extremely distressing but I know I did the right thing and when there is no hope for our loved ones at the very end I don't see why we can't do the same for them. I know that is a very loaded issue with all sorts of problems but it is what I believe of course I don't believe this should be done without the patient's consent and of course there lies a huge hurdle unless we all choose or not choose a living will when sound of mind
I am strongly opposed to euthanasia as are most of the nurses and doctors that I know. I for one am certainly not a 'right wing' christian. most of the staff in the NHS are resolutely left wing. It is possible to have strong moral and ethical views without being a christian. I was born and raised as catholic but am not practising so I am christian in name only.
Doctors and nurses are happy to administer medication that aids and improves life quality and I just can't understand how you fail to see the difference between giving drugs to help people to live and giving a drug that will kill That's quite a difference!
Having witnessed the LCP in action, it is Euthanasia just makes doctors and nurses not to have to kill anyone directly.
Sorry, but to me it's still legalised murder. :mad:
I'm sorry about how a lot of people feel on here.. But I really want to assure you the LCP is NOT how it has been portayed in the media at all. I am a doctor- have been working in Palliative care (care of the dying) for a long part of my medical training & can assure you that there are so many misconceptions about it that prevents dying patients being on the LCP and prevents them having a pain free dignified death.
Firstly, Morphine is NOT given to cause respiratory depression... That is murder & totally illegal & does not happen!! I have seen patients on massive doses of morphine dr pain control- with no effects on their breathing what so ever.
Secondly, NO one is allowed to hasten anyone's death. When ppl are reaching the end of their lives they do not need fluids (which can build up in their lungs & causes pulmonary oedema) or nutrition as their organs are shutting down. So this misconception of starving ppl to death is absolutely ludicrous.
I am sorry that some of you have had bad experiences... I am really passionate about palliative care & my patients & believe that dying ppl have the right to a pain free, comfortable & dignified death. How we treat our dying patients should be and is how we look after all of our sick patients. LCP has been going on for years & as a doctor I am shocked at these Media stories... Doctors/hospitals are NOT monsters & the majority of us really get attached to our patients. Please have some faith!
First of all, I am sorry for the loss of your grandmother. On reading your post it does not seem like your grandmother was on the LCP during the early stages of her admission or even when she was initially placed nil by mouth. Gall stones can lead to a very serious condition called pancreatitis which carries a high mortality rate, particularly in the elderly, because it causes other organs to fail. Feeding the gut worsens the condition because the pancreas plays a vital role in food digestion. Surgery is not an option for this particular condition, resting the bowel, intravenous fluids, control of blood sugar and strong pain killing medication is how it's treated in the hope that the inflammation settles down so that, in due course, the gall stones can be removed surgically. Even if she did not have pancreatitis her bowel would have been rested because of severe inflammation of the gall bladder caused by the gall stones. Did your grandmother have an intraveneous drip going when you first noticed the nil by mouth sign? The nurses should have allowed you to wet/moisten your grandmother's mouth.
It seems like you received very inadequate information from the medical and nursing staff but perhaps they were mainly passing on the necessary information to your grandmother's next of kin, presumably your mother? You should ask to see the cause of death on your grandmother's death certificate, this will help clarify what in fact happened with your grandmother.
No doctor ever chooses to end some one's life. Once it becomes evident that continuing treatment is futile because of the overwhelming illness and failure to respond to said treatment, meetings and discussions take place with other medical professionals and with family members to decide what is the course of action that constitutes the best interests of the patient. I have never personally known of any patient placed on the LCP without the full knowledge and consent of the patient's family and I am sorry if this appears to be the case in some hospitals. It's certainly not my own experience of the LCP but I find that most doctors are, in fact, reluctant to use it and will continue putting patients through heroic, invasive and unpleasant treatments and procedures until the patient eventually dies a rather unpleasant death.
Patients are not being ''killed off by the LCP on a daily basis'' and some people need to stop believing everything they read in the hysterical right wing press. If anything, as others have said here, some patients are placed too late on the LCP, having undergone weeks of unpleasant, hopeless and futile treatments.
If they have survived for weeks then clearly they should NOT be on the LCP earlier
If they have survived for weeks then clearly they should NOT be on the LCP earlier
Um NO that is NOT correct. The process of dying CAN go on for a few weeks. Not everyone has a quick death.
If doctors were really going around killing people they would all be in prison by now! Get a grip people please. Doctors are trained to save lives not end them. BUT when dying is inevitable doctors can help ease the suffering.
Why don't you do a 6 year medical degree & train as a doctor... Then maybe you would be a lot more informed to make criticisms.
For goodness sake why is it right wing to think the LCP is a barbaric way to die?Why is it the 'right wing' press who criticise the fact that food and hydration are withdrawn.Why does it have to be Christian or otherwise to feel this way.Why is it 'right wing'to be Christian anyway?
It is one thing to agree unnecessary treatments which would prolong suffering should not be given,but food and hydration particularly hydration is necessary whatever.LCP hastens death because hydration is refused.This is the purpose of withdrawing water to hasten death or it would be given.
Hospitals given money to fulfil targets for LCP victims sorry dying people?Why?
For background, I work in medical psychology research and specialise in communication surrounding palliative and end of life care for non-cancerous illnesses.
The LCP is not the problem here. The LCP is a well researched, evidence based tool which improves care and comfort in the last few days of life when in the hands of well trained medical professionals.
The problem is the NHS refusing to fund advanced communication courses for many clinicians (particularly those who do not work in cancer care), which in turn makes it very difficult for the clinician to communicate, in the most appropriate way, to the relatives exactly what is happening to the dying person, what the LCP is for, and why their relative has been placed on it.
For goodness sake why is it right wing to think the LCP is a barbaric way to die?Why is it the 'right wing' press who criticise the fact that food and hydration are withdrawn.Why does it have to be Christian or otherwise to feel this way.Why is it 'right wing'to be Christian anyway?
It is one thing to agree unnecessary treatments which would prolong suffering should not be given,but food and hydration particularly hydration is necessary whatever.LCP hastens death because hydration is refused.This is the purpose of withdrawing water to hasten death or it would be given.
Hospitals given money to fulfil targets for LCP victims sorry dying people?Why?
Not giving fluids does NOT hasten death! Get your facts right before posting things like that! I am a doctor- giving fluids to a dying person is unnecessary & can cause fluid build up in all the wrong places (e.g lungs). It is so frustrating that you are so ill-informed yet think its ok to make comments like that.
If that was the case then every dying person would be given fluids & would like forever & ever...! Please- educate yourself before making statements you clearly don't know about. And there are NO Hosp targets to put ppl on LCP- how can ppl be stupid enough to believe that?!!!!! As if a certain quota of the population has to be killed off?!!! Have some common sense ppl. If anything- there are guidelines FOR THE PATIENTS BEST INTERESTS to be put on LCP if they are dying.
And LCP 'victims'?!!! Get a grip & educate yourself.
Rubbish. Hospitals are given financial incentives to put people on this pathway. It was discussed at length on newsnight.
Why?
Doctor or not you don't know everything and how will people live forever by being given a few sips of water when they are dying?If people are dying then they are dying a little hydration will not fill their lungs.A person in a coma is a different thing perhaps.
Don't accuse me of being ignorant I am as educated as you .
Rubbish. Hospitals are given financial incentives to put people on this pathway. It was discussed at length on newsnight.
Why?
Doctor or not you don't know everything and how will people live forever by being given a few sips of water when they are dying?If people are dying then they are dying a little hydration will not fill their lungs.A person in a coma is a different thing perhaps.
Don't accuse me of being ignorant I am as educated as you .
You actually are not making any sense I am afraid. You proved my point entirely- by giving fluids does NOT prolong life! And if someone is on their death bed, unable to speak/move how do you propose giving them 'sips of fluid' when they are unable to eat or drink anything?! The only possible way is IV which again can go STRAIGHT to their lungs.
I don't care about any 'newsnight' report- I work in Palliative care myself and I know exactly what happens in hospital when people are dying. If hospitals were paid to kill people off then most Palliative Care doctors would be in jail by now! Have you ever thought of that?!! Shipman was caught doing awful things and was punished accordingly for it.. If you are telling me that newsnight has evidence of this happening then why are they not acting on it?!!!!
Palliative care is an entire medical speciality- it takes up to 8 years AFTER the medical degree to train/complete exams and become a Consultant... These specialists have focussed their careers on caring for dying patients. Posts like this and people's ignorance about this topic makes a mockery of people who genuinely care for their patients and work very hard to give them the dignified care they deserve.
I'm sorry about how a lot of people feel on here.. But I really want to assure you the LCP is NOT how it has been portayed in the media at all. I am a doctor- have been working in Palliative care (care of the dying) for a long part of my medical training & can assure you that there are so many misconceptions about it that prevents dying patients being on the LCP and prevents them having a pain free dignified death.
Firstly, Morphine is NOT given to cause respiratory depression... That is murder & totally illegal & does not happen!! I have seen patients on massive doses of morphine dr pain control- with no effects on their breathing what so ever.
Secondly, NO one is allowed to hasten anyone's death. When ppl are reaching the end of their lives they do not need fluids (which can build up in their lungs & causes pulmonary oedema) or nutrition as their organs are shutting down. So this misconception of starving ppl to death is absolutely ludicrous.
I am sorry that some of you have had bad experiences... I am really passionate about palliative care & my patients & believe that dying ppl have the right to a pain free, comfortable & dignified death. How we treat our dying patients should be and is how we look after all of our sick patients. LCP has been going on for years & as a doctor I am shocked at these Media stories... Doctors/hospitals are NOT monsters & the majority of us really get attached to our patients. Please have some faith!
That's all very well, but I would rather die alone in a bus stop on a cold and wet winters day then in a hospital where palliative care is conducted and they use the LCP. :mad:
You actually are not making any sense I am afraid. You proved my point entirely- by giving fluids does NOT prolong life! And if someone is on their death bed, unable to speak/move how do you propose giving them 'sips of fluid' when they are unable to eat or drink anything?! The only possible way is IV which again can go STRAIGHT to their lungs.
I don't care about any 'newsnight' report- I work in Palliative care myself and I know exactly what happens in hospital when people are dying. If hospitals were paid to kill people off then most Palliative Care doctors would be in jail by now! Have you ever thought of that?!! Shipman was caught doing awful things and was punished accordingly for it.. If you are telling me that newsnight has evidence of this happening then why are they not acting on it?!!!!
Palliative care is an entire medical speciality- it takes up to 8 years AFTER the medical degree to train/complete exams and become a Consultant... These specialists have focussed their careers on caring for dying patients. Posts like this and people's ignorance about this topic makes a mockery of people who genuinely care for their patients and work very hard to give them the dignified care they deserve.
I think that's the problem, its the "we know best :mad:" attitude of the medical profession.
As has been clearly pointed out LCP is a form of euthanasia (and I would add a very horrid one at that). No amount of you you jumping up and down screaming "it's care, it's care it's care", changes what it quite plainly is.
I don't think you are knowingly lying, but somewhere along the line the caring profession have deluded themselves into embracing LCP because
1) it reduces appalling suffering, and
2) because there is no physical act to quicken the death you can claim its not euthanasia.
In any other circumstance it would be classed as torture and murder, however (quite understandably) given the circumstances it is embraced . Why can't we go one step further and administer a drug that makes the death painless and quicker?
I think that's the problem, its the "we know best :mad:" attitude of the medical profession.
As has been clearly pointed out LCP is a form of euthanasia (and I would add a very horrid one at that). No amount of you you jumping up and down screaming "it's care, it's care it's care", changes what it quite plainly is.
I don't think you are knowingly lying, but somewhere along the line the caring profession have deluded themselves into embracing LCP because
1) it reduces appalling suffering, and
2) because there is no physical act to quicken the death you can claim its not euthanasia.
In any other circumstance it would be classed as torture and murder, however (quite understandably) given the circumstances it is embraced . Why can't we go one step further and administer a drug that makes the death painless and quicker?
Would relatives consent be sufficient, or would it require something similiar to a donor card giving express permission?
Would relatives consent be sufficient, or would it require something similiar to a donor card giving express permission?
LIVING WILLS.
An advance health care directive, also known as living will, personal directive, advance directive, or advance decision, is a set of written instructions that a person gives that specify what actions should be taken for their health if they are no longer able to make decisions due to illness or incapacity.
In the absence of that then I see no reason why family can not represent the persons wishes.
However in all scenarios there would still need to be medical criteria that would need to be satisfied in order for euthanasia to be carried out.
Personally in situations like mine, where a loved ones soon to be demise had been confirmed by medical specialists, we would have not have hesitated to let her go rather than hang on for two weeks, for her own dignity.
Although it seems from this thread nan might not have been dealt with as well as she could have been
Personally in situations like mine, where a loved ones soon to be demise had been confirmed by medical specialists, we would have not have hesitated to let her go rather than hang on for two weeks, for her own dignity.
As a family we were lucky to have a brilliant doctor who helped us on two occasions. Help that could that could have ruined his career and him ended up in jail.
The sad thing was these life and death decision which should have been discussed out in the open with all options and outcomes being made crystal clear so everyone knew all the information, was discussed in "code" with nods and winks and silences.
I think that's the problem, its the "we know best :mad:" attitude of the medical profession.
As has been clearly pointed out LCP is a form of euthanasia (and I would add a very horrid one at that). No amount of you you jumping up and down screaming "it's care, it's care it's care", changes what it quite plainly is.
I don't think you are knowingly lying, but somewhere along the line the caring profession have deluded themselves into embracing LCP because
1) it reduces appalling suffering, and
2) because there is no physical act to quicken the death you can claim its not euthanasia.
In any other circumstance it would be classed as torture and murder, however (quite understandably) given the circumstances it is embraced . Why can't we go one step further and administer a drug that makes the death painless and quicker?
Well this is a MEDICAL issue so YES MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS DO KNOW BEST!!!! What a ridiculous comment! I would never claim to know more about whatever you specialise in than you would I?!!!!
LCP is NOT euthanasia and it is no way near it either. I am a religious person myself and have strong ethical moral values too.. If it was euthanasia/torture/murder as you put it I would NOT be part of it!!!!!!!
If you want to 'go one step further' and hasten death then good luck to you... I am sure you will end up behind bars.
The guidelines for LCP are very clear. Patients have to fit specific criteria to be appropriate to be put on it. I have had relatives come to me with the same worries about LCP, but when I have explained and shown them the paperwork & what it entails they have ALWAYS agreed that it is totally not how LCP has been portrayed and is best for the patient.
Well this is a MEDICAL issue so YES MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS DO KNOW BEST!!!! What a ridiculous comment! I would never claim to know more about whatever you specialise in than you would I?!!!!
LCP is NOT euthanasia and it is no way near it either. I am a religious person myself and have strong ethical moral values too.. If it was euthanasia/torture/murder as you put it I would NOT be part of it!!!!!!!
If you want to 'go one step further' and hasten death then good luck to you... I am sure you will end up behind bars.
The guidelines for LCP are very clear. Patients have to fit specific criteria to be appropriate to be put on it. I have had relatives come to me with the same worries about LCP, but when I have explained and shown them the paperwork & what it entails they have ALWAYS agreed that it is totally not how LCP has been portrayed and is best for the patient.
I beg to differ, they frequently fail to acknowledge the questions and concerns of patients/families when it comes to the medical treatment of patients, LCP is in my opinion legalised euthanasia, the medical profession love the LCP because it is cost effective and frees up beds quicker.
The final say regarding the treatment of a patient should reside with the family.
I beg to differ, they frequently fail to acknowledge the questions and concerns of patients/families when it comes to the medical treatment of patients, LCP is in my opinion legalised euthanasia, the medical profession love the LCP because it is cost effective and frees up beds quicker.
The final say regarding the treatment of a patient should reside with the family.
Indeed however redtiger is referring to the decades of research and training that has been invested into those working in palliative care and the development of the LCP ***as a medical care pathway***.
As I said in my previous post, the problem with all this is NOT the LCP itself. The LCP is not an all singing, all dancing communication, empathy, holistic care tool, and it is not meant to be. It is an effective tool *in the right hands*. It is the lack of advanced communication skill training provided to those working in this field to help them communicate to the relatives exactly what the LCP is and how it may benefit their relative's care at the end of life. Some relatives do not want to understand what the LCP is all about despite the best efforts of the clinical team and just think it is some form of euthanasia, and will not be convinced otherwise. This is why the LCP gets a bad press....
redtiger, people like this will never listen, they love to argue with those clinicians (and researchers like myself) who have trained hard for years and years with the sole purpose of trying their damndest to provide people with the best possible holistic medical care. Sigh.
Indeed however redtiger is referring to the decades of research and training that has been invested into those working in palliative care and the development of the LCP ***as a medical care pathway***.
As I said in my previous post, the problem with all this is NOT the LCP itself. The LCP is not an all singing, all dancing communication, empathy, holistic care tool, and it is not meant to be. It is an effective tool *in the right hands*. It is the lack of advanced communication skill training provided to those working in this field to help them communicate to the relatives exactly what the LCP is and how it may benefit their relative's care at the end of life. Some relatives do not want to understand what the LCP is all about despite the best efforts of the clinical team and just think it is some form of euthanasia, and will not be convinced otherwise. This is why the LCP gets a bad press....
redtiger, people like this will never listen, they love to argue with those clinicians (and researchers like myself) who have trained hard for years and years with the sole purpose of trying their damndest to provide people with the best possible holistic medical care. Sigh.
As this is a public forum read my many who will have concerns about the LCP it is very important that these fears can be discussed.
What people need to remember is that they have the right to make an Advanced Careplan, where they can state what they would wish for at the end of their lives.
In this they can say that they do not wish to have the intervention of a specialist Palliative Care Team and indeed that they do not wish to enter a Hospice at the end of their lives, both of which advocate the LCP
It needs to be made clear however that the care that these teams of doctors and nurses can offer is based on the best evidence we have at present that should provide the most peaceful and dignified death possible at this time.
Some people will disagree with this, but you must be very sure of your facts before you make such a decision either for yourself or a loved one.
People need to do their own research ( easily done on the internet ), regarding the complications of giving artificial fluids to a person who's organs are failing at the end of their lives.
In years passed people were the 'victims' of such invasive interventions. Today we are making great strides in improving the last days of peoples lives. Clinicians need to be able to explain why they feel the LCP is justified as best practice and quite rightly so. Debate around the issues can only help this process.
Comments
I am strongly opposed to euthanasia as are most of the nurses and doctors that I know. I for one am certainly not a 'right wing' christian. most of the staff in the NHS are resolutely left wing. It is possible to have strong moral and ethical views without being a christian. I was born and raised as catholic but am not practising so I am christian in name only.
Doctors and nurses are happy to administer medication that aids and improves life quality and I just can't understand how you fail to see the difference between giving drugs to help people to live and giving a drug that will kill
very, very sad situation but i think it should be a last resort and only implemented by an independent doctor just like when life support equipment is removed.
i can 100% see how the James family are upset - imaging your dad going into hospital sick but nonetheless in good shape only to end up catching an infection and then being in the situation they're in now. I really do feel so upset for them and hope they get some answers that they deserve.
just finally i feel sorry for all those in hospital who dont have friends and family supporting them - i fear many people are being killed off on the LCP on a daily basis.
First of all, I am sorry for the loss of your grandmother. On reading your post it does not seem like your grandmother was on the LCP during the early stages of her admission or even when she was initially placed nil by mouth. Gall stones can lead to a very serious condition called pancreatitis which carries a high mortality rate, particularly in the elderly, because it causes other organs to fail. Feeding the gut worsens the condition because the pancreas plays a vital role in food digestion. Surgery is not an option for this particular condition, resting the bowel, intravenous fluids, control of blood sugar and strong pain killing medication is how it's treated in the hope that the inflammation settles down so that, in due course, the gall stones can be removed surgically. Even if she did not have pancreatitis her bowel would have been rested because of severe inflammation of the gall bladder caused by the gall stones. Did your grandmother have an intraveneous drip going when you first noticed the nil by mouth sign? The nurses should have allowed you to wet/moisten your grandmother's mouth.
It seems like you received very inadequate information from the medical and nursing staff but perhaps they were mainly passing on the necessary information to your grandmother's next of kin, presumably your mother? You should ask to see the cause of death on your grandmother's death certificate, this will help clarify what in fact happened with your grandmother.
No doctor ever chooses to end some one's life. Once it becomes evident that continuing treatment is futile because of the overwhelming illness and failure to respond to said treatment, meetings and discussions take place with other medical professionals and with family members to decide what is the course of action that constitutes the best interests of the patient. I have never personally known of any patient placed on the LCP without the full knowledge and consent of the patient's family and I am sorry if this appears to be the case in some hospitals. It's certainly not my own experience of the LCP but I find that most doctors are, in fact, reluctant to use it and will continue putting patients through heroic, invasive and unpleasant treatments and procedures until the patient eventually dies a rather unpleasant death.
Patients are not being ''killed off by the LCP on a daily basis'' and some people need to stop believing everything they read in the hysterical right wing press. If anything, as others have said here, some patients are placed too late on the LCP, having undergone weeks of unpleasant, hopeless and futile treatments.
But I wasn't actually talking about euthanasia although they do have controlled euthanasia in Holland. I was more referring to the LCP care at end of life. No one in Holland dies an undignified death which would have been the case for my father if the doctor hadn't given him medication.
I have had to put down two very old cats which was extremely distressing but I know I did the right thing and when there is no hope for our loved ones at the very end I don't see why we can't do the same for them. I know that is a very loaded issue with all sorts of problems but it is what I believe of course I don't believe this should be done without the patient's consent and of course there lies a huge hurdle unless we all choose or not choose a living will when sound of mind
Having witnessed the LCP in action, it is Euthanasia just makes doctors and nurses not to have to kill anyone directly.
I'm sorry about how a lot of people feel on here.. But I really want to assure you the LCP is NOT how it has been portayed in the media at all. I am a doctor- have been working in Palliative care (care of the dying) for a long part of my medical training & can assure you that there are so many misconceptions about it that prevents dying patients being on the LCP and prevents them having a pain free dignified death.
Firstly, Morphine is NOT given to cause respiratory depression... That is murder & totally illegal & does not happen!! I have seen patients on massive doses of morphine dr pain control- with no effects on their breathing what so ever.
Secondly, NO one is allowed to hasten anyone's death. When ppl are reaching the end of their lives they do not need fluids (which can build up in their lungs & causes pulmonary oedema) or nutrition as their organs are shutting down. So this misconception of starving ppl to death is absolutely ludicrous.
I am sorry that some of you have had bad experiences... I am really passionate about palliative care & my patients & believe that dying ppl have the right to a pain free, comfortable & dignified death. How we treat our dying patients should be and is how we look after all of our sick patients. LCP has been going on for years & as a doctor I am shocked at these Media stories... Doctors/hospitals are NOT monsters & the majority of us really get attached to our patients. Please have some faith!
If they have survived for weeks then clearly they should NOT be on the LCP earlier
Um NO that is NOT correct. The process of dying CAN go on for a few weeks. Not everyone has a quick death.
If doctors were really going around killing people they would all be in prison by now! Get a grip people please. Doctors are trained to save lives not end them. BUT when dying is inevitable doctors can help ease the suffering.
Why don't you do a 6 year medical degree & train as a doctor... Then maybe you would be a lot more informed to make criticisms.
It is one thing to agree unnecessary treatments which would prolong suffering should not be given,but food and hydration particularly hydration is necessary whatever.LCP hastens death because hydration is refused.This is the purpose of withdrawing water to hasten death or it would be given.
Hospitals given money to fulfil targets for LCP victims sorry dying people?Why?
Well said!
Not giving fluids does NOT hasten death! Get your facts right before posting things like that! I am a doctor- giving fluids to a dying person is unnecessary & can cause fluid build up in all the wrong places (e.g lungs). It is so frustrating that you are so ill-informed yet think its ok to make comments like that.
If that was the case then every dying person would be given fluids & would like forever & ever...! Please- educate yourself before making statements you clearly don't know about. And there are NO Hosp targets to put ppl on LCP- how can ppl be stupid enough to believe that?!!!!! As if a certain quota of the population has to be killed off?!!! Have some common sense ppl. If anything- there are guidelines FOR THE PATIENTS BEST INTERESTS to be put on LCP if they are dying.
And LCP 'victims'?!!! Get a grip & educate yourself.
Why?
Doctor or not you don't know everything and how will people live forever by being given a few sips of water when they are dying?If people are dying then they are dying a little hydration will not fill their lungs.A person in a coma is a different thing perhaps.
Don't accuse me of being ignorant I am as educated as you .
You actually are not making any sense I am afraid. You proved my point entirely- by giving fluids does NOT prolong life! And if someone is on their death bed, unable to speak/move how do you propose giving them 'sips of fluid' when they are unable to eat or drink anything?! The only possible way is IV which again can go STRAIGHT to their lungs.
I don't care about any 'newsnight' report- I work in Palliative care myself and I know exactly what happens in hospital when people are dying. If hospitals were paid to kill people off then most Palliative Care doctors would be in jail by now! Have you ever thought of that?!! Shipman was caught doing awful things and was punished accordingly for it.. If you are telling me that newsnight has evidence of this happening then why are they not acting on it?!!!!
Palliative care is an entire medical speciality- it takes up to 8 years AFTER the medical degree to train/complete exams and become a Consultant... These specialists have focussed their careers on caring for dying patients. Posts like this and people's ignorance about this topic makes a mockery of people who genuinely care for their patients and work very hard to give them the dignified care they deserve.
That's all very well, but I would rather die alone in a bus stop on a cold and wet winters day then in a hospital where palliative care is conducted and they use the LCP. :mad:
I think that's the problem, its the "we know best :mad:" attitude of the medical profession.
As has been clearly pointed out LCP is a form of euthanasia (and I would add a very horrid one at that). No amount of you you jumping up and down screaming "it's care, it's care it's care", changes what it quite plainly is.
I don't think you are knowingly lying, but somewhere along the line the caring profession have deluded themselves into embracing LCP because
1) it reduces appalling suffering, and
2) because there is no physical act to quicken the death you can claim its not euthanasia.
In any other circumstance it would be classed as torture and murder, however (quite understandably) given the circumstances it is embraced . Why can't we go one step further and administer a drug that makes the death painless and quicker?
Credit where credit is due.
Would relatives consent be sufficient, or would it require something similiar to a donor card giving express permission?
In the absence of that then I see no reason why family can not represent the persons wishes.
However in all scenarios there would still need to be medical criteria that would need to be satisfied in order for euthanasia to be carried out.
Personally in situations like mine, where a loved ones soon to be demise had been confirmed by medical specialists, we would have not have hesitated to let her go rather than hang on for two weeks, for her own dignity.
Although it seems from this thread nan might not have been dealt with as well as she could have been
The sad thing was these life and death decision which should have been discussed out in the open with all options and outcomes being made crystal clear so everyone knew all the information, was discussed in "code" with nods and winks and silences.
Well this is a MEDICAL issue so YES MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS DO KNOW BEST!!!! What a ridiculous comment! I would never claim to know more about whatever you specialise in than you would I?!!!!
LCP is NOT euthanasia and it is no way near it either. I am a religious person myself and have strong ethical moral values too.. If it was euthanasia/torture/murder as you put it I would NOT be part of it!!!!!!!
If you want to 'go one step further' and hasten death then good luck to you... I am sure you will end up behind bars.
The guidelines for LCP are very clear. Patients have to fit specific criteria to be appropriate to be put on it. I have had relatives come to me with the same worries about LCP, but when I have explained and shown them the paperwork & what it entails they have ALWAYS agreed that it is totally not how LCP has been portrayed and is best for the patient.
I beg to differ, they frequently fail to acknowledge the questions and concerns of patients/families when it comes to the medical treatment of patients, LCP is in my opinion legalised euthanasia, the medical profession love the LCP because it is cost effective and frees up beds quicker.
The final say regarding the treatment of a patient should reside with the family.
Indeed however redtiger is referring to the decades of research and training that has been invested into those working in palliative care and the development of the LCP ***as a medical care pathway***.
As I said in my previous post, the problem with all this is NOT the LCP itself. The LCP is not an all singing, all dancing communication, empathy, holistic care tool, and it is not meant to be. It is an effective tool *in the right hands*. It is the lack of advanced communication skill training provided to those working in this field to help them communicate to the relatives exactly what the LCP is and how it may benefit their relative's care at the end of life. Some relatives do not want to understand what the LCP is all about despite the best efforts of the clinical team and just think it is some form of euthanasia, and will not be convinced otherwise. This is why the LCP gets a bad press....
redtiger, people like this will never listen, they love to argue with those clinicians (and researchers like myself) who have trained hard for years and years with the sole purpose of trying their damndest to provide people with the best possible holistic medical care. Sigh.
Yes....Sigh.
Dying is part of life.
What people need to remember is that they have the right to make an Advanced Careplan, where they can state what they would wish for at the end of their lives.
In this they can say that they do not wish to have the intervention of a specialist Palliative Care Team and indeed that they do not wish to enter a Hospice at the end of their lives, both of which advocate the LCP
It needs to be made clear however that the care that these teams of doctors and nurses can offer is based on the best evidence we have at present that should provide the most peaceful and dignified death possible at this time.
Some people will disagree with this, but you must be very sure of your facts before you make such a decision either for yourself or a loved one.
People need to do their own research ( easily done on the internet ), regarding the complications of giving artificial fluids to a person who's organs are failing at the end of their lives.
In years passed people were the 'victims' of such invasive interventions. Today we are making great strides in improving the last days of peoples lives. Clinicians need to be able to explain why they feel the LCP is justified as best practice and quite rightly so. Debate around the issues can only help this process.