Regarding the Indian student who was murdered in Manchester

slick1twoslick1two Posts: 2,877
Forum Member
✭✭✭
Why did the police stop short of calling it a racially motivated attack and instead called it a hate crime. Surely if this hate was towards his ethnicity or race then should it not be called as such?

Still it was a cold blooded murder and the perpetrators need to to brought to justice.
«134

Comments

  • slick1twoslick1two Posts: 2,877
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Any views and opinions on this?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 10,273
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    I'm not sure. Is there a distinct difference between a hate crime and a racially motivated crime? Officially I mean.

    Any legal people here??
  • slick1twoslick1two Posts: 2,877
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    But what is it that the murderer hated about this person? He never knew him personally so then you have to look at other reasons. Surely then you have to factor in skin colour and race? So to call it just a hate crime without looking at the basis and motive for the attack is an insult to the victim and his family.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 68,508
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    A racially motivated crime is one category of hate crime. Others include attacking someone on the basis of their religion, their age or their disability. From the point of view of sentencing guidelines, the critical fact is that something qualifies as a hate crime, regardless of category.
  • John146John146 Posts: 12,926
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Not sure what to say, but cannot understand the mentality of anyone who would want to shoot a fellow human being in the head, perhaps life in a mental institution for the perpetrator, and I do mean life, whole life.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,332
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    He could have hated him for nice clothes, nice trainers etc. It appears trainers are the world in some quarters! :mad:
  • richard craniumrichard cranium Posts: 4,388
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    It's a term beloved of the Medja , like Honour Killing, it means nothing, worthless as a legal term, murder is murder.
  • slick1twoslick1two Posts: 2,877
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    RoseMaybud wrote: »
    He could have hated him for nice clothes, nice trainers etc. It appears trainers are the world in some quarters! :mad:
    but even with that

    , hate is a strong word. You don't just hate someone for a petty reason. Envious of someone yes, but given the context of the killing it does point to racism or xenophobia. Of course we don't know a great deal but you can't rule that out as a motive.
  • spookedspooked Posts: 1,241
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Is a "Hate crime" classified as a crime you commit against someone that you are not hopelessly in love with?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 10,559
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    slick1two wrote: »
    Why did the police stop short of calling it a racially motivated attack and instead called it a hate crime. Surely if this hate was towards his ethnicity or race then should it not be called as such?

    Still it was a cold blooded murder and the perpetrators need to to brought to justice.

    My understanding is that a hate crime is a crime committed against anyone affiliated to a particular group. So that could include race, gender, sexuality, religion, polictical - any affiliation you can think of really. A racially motivated attack is just one of many categories.

    Edit: oops, already answered by Wonkey.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,799
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    The BBC have been keen on the race aspect from the beginning. They might have some inside information or it might just be their preferred news angle.

    So in today's update:

    "The Lancaster University student was shot by a white man in the early hours" ~ BBC

    On reflection perhaps the more interesting part is calling the victim a 'student', as he certainly wasn't killed for being a 'student' (well, presumably). So impliedly he was killed 'by a white man' for reasons of race. To me it's more likely if someone immature is looking for an excuse to use a gun it would be that he was a foreigner, ie had a foreign accent. Salford and Manchester are very multicultural areas, the idea that someone would kill someone for being Asian seems far-fetched to me.

    By way of unhappy symmetry there was another recent shooting in another part of the world, British Aid worker Khuram Shaikh, a Salford Uni graduate, killed in Sri Lanka. It's interesting to see how the British media report the two cases.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,799
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    My understanding is that a hate crime is a crime committed against anyone affiliated to a particular group. So that could include race, gender, sexuality, religion, polictical - any affiliation you can think of really. A racially motivated attack is just one of many categories.

    Edit: oops, already answered by Wonkey.
    Any madness like this is a 'hate crime' though isn't it? It's the 'are you looking at my bird' excuse, ie any excuse will do. I think these crimes are more about the people who commit them.
  • slick1twoslick1two Posts: 2,877
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    bean999 wrote: »
    The BBC have been keen on the race aspect from the beginning. They might have some inside information or it might just be their preferred news angle.

    So in today's update:

    "The Lancaster University student was shot by a white man in the early hours" ~ BBC

    On reflection perhaps the more interesting part is calling the victim a 'student', as he certainly wasn't killed for being a 'student' (well, presumably). So impliedly he was killed 'by a white man' for reasons of race. To me it's more likely if someone immature is looking for an excuse to use a gun it would be that he was a foreigner, ie had a foreign accent. Salford and Manchester are very multicultural areas, the idea that someone would kill someone for being Asian seems far-fetched to me.

    By way of unhappy symmetry there was another recent shooting in another part of the world, British Aid worker Khuram Shaikh, a Salford Uni graduate, killed in Sri Lanka. It's interesting to see how the British media report the two cases.

    To link a racial aspect to the murder is spot on in my opinion. Racially motivated killings aren't fat fetched at all. People still get beat up for being an ethnic minority. I've been subjected to racial abuse literally every time I have left London, even if it's just a few miles outside, in parts of Essex for example. There are many pockets of racists who have nothing better to do than racially abuse people verbally or physically. Racism is very much alive and kicking in the UK and I talk from experience.

    So yeah I can totally believe someone getting shot, stabbed, murdered for being non white. Cos when you have that level of hatred inside you, which many folk still do, then they are capable of anything.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,799
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    slick1two wrote: »
    To link a racial aspect to the murder is spot on in my opinion. Racially motivated killings aren't fat fetched at all. People still get beat up for being an ethnic minority. I've been subjected to racial abuse literally every time I have left London, even if it's just a few miles outside, in parts of Essex for example. There are many pockets of racists who have nothing better to do than racially abuse people verbally or physically. Racism is very much alive and kicking in the UK and I talk from experience.

    So yeah I can totally believe someone getting shot, stabbed, murdered for being non white. Cos when you have that level of hatred inside you, which many folk still do, then they are capable of anything.
    I'm sorry to hear about your experiences, but looking at the big picture, If race hatred is there to the extent that you say, it wouldn't be evidenced by a shooting like this. It would be evidenced by a shooting like this... happening on a regular basis.
  • cjsmummycjsmummy Posts: 11,079
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Regarding the original thread on this case, did it get whooshed or something:confused:
  • academiaacademia Posts: 18,225
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    My understanding is that a hate crime is a crime committed against anyone affiliated to a particular group. So that could include race, gender, sexuality, religion, polictical - any affiliation you can think of really. A racially motivated attack is just one of many categories.

    Edit: oops, already answered by Wonkey.

    Is gender covered by hate crime law? And there was me thinking that women and children were the only groups excluded from these laws.
  • slick1twoslick1two Posts: 2,877
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    bean999 wrote: »
    I'm sorry to hear about your experiences, but looking at the big picture, If race hatred is there to the extent that you say, it wouldn't be evidenced by a shooting like this. It would be evidenced by a shooting like this... happening on a regular basis.
    I think people having to endure racist abuse on a regular basis is proof enough as to the extent of racism in this country and its bit gone away. As I said, in the main cities its not so bad but step a little outside of them and you will see it and its frequent.

    Can't even go on a day trip somewhere without some racist making a comment on a train or something. Of course killing someone whilst holding their race against them is am extreme example but there are many ways to torment someone. It's just sad that in the 21st century people are still so narrow minded and prejudiced.
  • mooblymoobly Posts: 281
    Forum Member
    bean999 wrote: »
    The BBC have been keen on the race aspect from the beginning. They might have some inside information or it might just be their preferred news angle.

    So in today's update:

    "The Lancaster University student was shot by a white man in the early hours" ~ BBC

    On reflection perhaps the more interesting part is calling the victim a 'student', as he certainly wasn't killed for being a 'student' (well, presumably). So impliedly he was killed 'by a white man' for reasons of race. To me it's more likely if someone immature is looking for an excuse to use a gun it would be that he was a foreigner, ie had a foreign accent. Salford and Manchester are very multicultural areas, the idea that someone would kill someone for being Asian seems far-fetched to me.

    I used to live on the estate where the gunmen/children ran into. I was a student at the time - for the record, they didn't like students very much. I once got hit on the face with a glass bottle and told to "get the f**k back to my own country" by some of the lovely local scallies. I'm N Irish. I was born in the UK. Incidentally, the police treated it as a 'hate crime'. Manchester and Salford may be multicultural, but it still has it's elements of sheer ignorance.
  • myssmyss Posts: 16,457
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    I took it as that it wasn't a 'random' or 'undirected' crime as first thought of, the crime occurred due to the hatred of something that the victim had or was part of.
  • slick1twoslick1two Posts: 2,877
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    myss wrote: »
    I took it as that it wasn't a 'random' or 'undirected' crime as first thought of, the crime occurred due to the hatred of something that the victim had or was part of.

    People need to accept that racism and xenophobia is still very much a problem, not just gloss over that fact and make excuses for this scum elements in society. When you still got youngsters and kids spouting racial abuse at people then you know that racist attitudes are being transferred from generation to generation. A person does not deserve to be singled out for abuse when they done nothing wrong, for just being who they are like our Northern Irish poster has just described.
  • myssmyss Posts: 16,457
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    slick1two wrote: »
    People need to accept that racism and xenophobia is still very much a problem, not just gloss over that fact and make excuses for this scum elements in society. When you still got youngsters and kids spouting racial abuse at people then you know that racist attitudes are being transferred from generation to generation. A person does not deserve to be singled out for abuse when they done nothing wrong, for just being who they are like our Northern Irish poster has just described.
    I agree with you - but why did you quote my post? I was answering the OP's question defining what I thought hate crimes were; my definition fits what you said anyway.
  • jimmyworzeljimmyworzel Posts: 1,280
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    slick1two wrote: »
    Why did the police stop short of calling it a racially motivated attack and instead called it a hate crime. Surely if this hate was towards his ethnicity or race then should it not be called as such?

    Still it was a cold blooded murder and the perpetrators need to to brought to justice.

    because witnesses to the murder perceived it as one..

    thats the law of the land

    the police have not finished investigating so don't want to jump to a conclusion, it still may turn out to be a racist attack, who knows. in this scenario when there is no clear motive, they look to the witness statements.
  • *Sparkle**Sparkle* Posts: 10,955
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    I think that treating it as a potential "hate crime" means that there is a particular set of protocols to be followed by the police. It's something to do with recommendations following a police investigation of a previous murder that was considered to be race related, but that wasn't handled very well at the time. There doesn't need to be an actual murder for it to be a hate crime.

    I think the point is that when there is a hate crime, the only provocation was that the victim was black, or gay or presumed to be of a particular religion, or disabled etc. That's not to say that other murder victims aren't innocent, but generally there is some kind of motive linking the perpetrator with the victim. In the case of a hate crime, that connection is that they are, for example, Asian.
  • slick1twoslick1two Posts: 2,877
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    myss wrote: »
    I agree with you - but why did you quote my post? I was answering the OP's question defining what I thought hate crimes were; my definition fits what you said anyway.
    I quoted you to reinforce your point! Not opposing it.
  • skp20040skp20040 Posts: 66,872
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    slick1two wrote: »
    Why did the police stop short of calling it a racially motivated attack and instead called it a hate crime. Surely if this hate was towards his ethnicity or race then should it not be called as such?

    Still it was a cold blooded murder and the perpetrators need to to brought to justice.

    Because as of yet the police do not know , they have classified it as a hate crime as the local community have bascially asked them to.

    Personally I think its right for the police until they know not to classify anything, it can be detrimental to an enquiry to classify it without full knowledge.
Sign In or Register to comment.