Has anyone yet come up with an explanation of why they had to kidnap Gwen's family, or why Gwen had to kidnap Jack?
I have a feeling we're supposed to forget about that bit. If they wanted a 'soul-searching' showdown between Jack and Gwen and the Angelo backstory all they had to do was tell it, have Jack and Gwen together, get a call telling Jack Angelo wanted him, he wanted to go and Gwen spouted off all her stuff to him as she'd rather do something else or whatever. Of course it could be that as they'd signed up Gwen's entire family they thought they should refer to them once in a while to remind the Americans there's a vaguely British/Welsh connection?
Has anyone yet come up with an explanation of why they had to kidnap Gwen's family, or why Gwen had to kidnap Jack?
Gwen had to kidnap Jack because her family was being held hostage against his delivery. You did get that much, I hope. Gwen's family was kidnapped to ensure that she would deliver Jack. There is very little here not to understand. Someone wanted to have Jack appear in person and Gwen was the method of delivery that they had available.
No we don't. People like that often confess to murders they didn't commit.
Not saying he's innocent but not saying he's guilty either until the programme shows us otherwise.
Well, it has been established that he is what everyone thinks he is; the worst kind of criminal that can be imagined.What could be more dispicable than a man who would rape and murder a 12 year old girl? Answer: the guy who does so and then says that she should have run faster. In the US, we don't execute people every day of the week. It is only after years of appeals and seemingly endless legal debates that a person is actually subjected to corporal punishment. If this was a real person then he would have had 15 - 20 years to find some loophole that would allow him to walk free. Far more often than not, it is found that there is some flaw in the prosecutions case, or in the evidence collection, or some other BS that allows the offender to go free.
In this instance, in fact, this was my first problem with the series. As a US citizen, I know that he couldn't threaten the governor of a state and just walk free the next day. Even if he was right, and could prove it, the process alone could take months or years. Oswald Danes has had every opportunity to avoid the death penalty and has fallen short. The whole point of his popularity with the common man is that he has managed to survive, in spite of his legal condemnation.
Now, as for the reactions of Gwen and Jack, please don't ask me to explain. I would have no problem with leaving him to the mercy of Rhys (or lack thereof) while trying to work through the next steps. Why they felt it neccesary to take him along is beyond me. I can only assume that it equates to Frodo's insistance that Gollum will have some crucial part to play before the end.
Gwen had to kidnap Jack because her family was being held hostage against his delivery. You did get that much, I hope. Gwen's family was kidnapped to ensure that she would deliver Jack. There is very little here not to understand. Someone wanted to have Jack appear in person and Gwen was the method of delivery that they had available.
I beg to differ. The thing that is hard to understand is why Angelo would need to threaten violence to Gwen's family in order to get her to forcibly abduct Jack and bring him to a meeting that he would have gone to freely and voluntarity simply by them name-dropping Angelo.
It was obvious that they didn't mean any harm to Jack so why subject him and Gwen (and Gwen's family) to such a violent and traumatic ordeal?
Of course that's hard to understand! It makes no sense.
I beg to differ. The thing that is hard to understand is why Angelo would need to threaten violence to Gwen's family in order to get her to forcibly abduct Jack and bring him to a meeting that he would have gone to freely and voluntarity simply by them name-dropping Angelo.
It was obvious that they didn't mean any harm to Jack so why subject him and Gwen (and Gwen's family) to such a violent and traumatic ordeal?
Of course that's hard to understand! It makes no sense.
Regards
Julian
Well, Jack and Angelo's parting was not by mutual agreement, and there was no reason for his descendents to believe that he would come "voluntarily by them name-dropping Angelo." I agree that it was overplayed, but it should still be understandable in the context. Remember that this is RTD that we're talking about. My biggest problem with the whole situation was not what they did, but how they did it. How did Angelo's granddaughter know about, and know how to, access the alien technology of the lenses and force Gwen to obey them in the first place? There was nothing in the previous episode to let us know that Angelo had any knowledge of this possibilty. Yet, he has been able to instruct his family in enough detail that they could intervene at just the right moment to bring Jack to his deathbed.
To me, what was a clever plot device in CoE has been turned into a catch-all for "what do I do now?" Witness the fact that they have only been useful for visual information in the past, but now they are able to record a rogue CIA member's confession.
Well, Jack and Angelo's parting was not by mutual agreement, and there was no reason for his descendents to believe that he would come "voluntarily by them name-dropping Angelo." I agree that it was overplayed, but it should still be understandable in the context. Remember that this is RTD that we're talking about. My biggest problem with the whole situation was not what they did, but how they did it. How did Angelo's granddaughter know about, and know how to, access the alien technology of the lenses and force Gwen to obey them in the first place? There was nothing in the previous episode to let us know that Angelo had any knowledge of this possibilty. Yet, he has been able to instruct his family in enough detail that they could intervene at just the right moment to bring Jack to his deathbed.
To me, what was a clever plot device in CoE has been turned into a catch-all for "what do I do now?" Witness the fact that they have only been useful for visual information in the past, but now they are able to record a rogue CIA member's confession.
It would seem that Angelo has had access to the alien technology that used to be stored at the Torchwood hub (i.e. the null field) so, presumably, the ability to hijack the lenses was from similarly stolen technology.
While it's possible that Jack wouldn't have come just by Angelo asking (even though his granddaughter, I believe, actually said that he would have). It seems like a bit of a drastic scenario to cause all that trauma to someone's friends and family if your intentions are apparently benign.
At the very least they could have offered Jack the invitation and, if he didn't come, then use the kidnapping as a plan B. It seems to me that the granddaughter was just being deliberately malicious for no good reason :rolleyes:
It would seem that Angelo has had access to the alien technology that used to be stored at the Torchwood hub (i.e. the null field) so, presumably, the ability to hijack the lenses was from similarly stolen technology.
While it's possible that Jack wouldn't have come just by Angelo asking (even though his granddaughter, I believe, actually said that he would have). It seems like a bit of a drastic scenario to cause all that trauma to someone's friends and family if your intentions are apparently benign.
At the very least they could have offered Jack the invitation and, if he didn't come, then use the kidnapping as a plan B. It seems to me that the granddaughter was just being deliberately malicious for no good reason :rolleyes:
It is certainly very odd, and doesn't make much sense, but maybe you put your finger on something. The granddaughter was clearly very displeased with Jack and seem to resent the relationship her grandfather had with him, maybe it was her kind of revenge? I think it needed to be made more explicit though.
Sorry if this has been asked already but its been bugging me since the begining. If knowbody can die then like the bomber everypice of flesha nd bone would still be alive , just like when the arm on the hospital table was live. surely when Gwen blew up the helicopter on the beach each piece of blown up flesh would still be alive? its the same as when they burn catorory 1s wouldnt the bodies turn to ash and then each and every microscopic piece of dust be alive?
Sorry if this has been asked already but its been bugging me since the begining. If knowbody can die then like the bomber everypice of flesha nd bone would still be alive , just like when the arm on the hospital table was live. surely when Gwen blew up the helicopter on the beach each piece of blown up flesh would still be alive? its the same as when they burn catorory 1s wouldnt the bodies turn to ash and then each and every microscopic piece of dust be alive?
Microbes are alive but nobody cares about their quality of life. The dust might be alive but, one assumes, it wouldn't be sentient and it wouldn't be taking up resources to sustain it or store it or become a breeding ground for diseases.
If category 1's really are as brain dead and irredeemable as the government apparently intends them to be then I really don't see why anyone would object to the ovens, to be honest.
Sorry if this has been asked already but its been bugging me since the begining. If knowbody can die then like the bomber everypice of flesha nd bone would still be alive , just like when the arm on the hospital table was live. surely when Gwen blew up the helicopter on the beach each piece of blown up flesh would still be alive? its the same as when they burn catorory 1s wouldnt the bodies turn to ash and then each and every microscopic piece of dust be alive?
I hate to say it, but I think this really just boils down to one of the many examples this series of sloppy, ill-thought-through writing. Some bits of this series of Torchwood have been fab, but an awful lot of the writing (when are people who can't die really dead, why did Gwen's family have to be kidnapped, whatever did happen to the assassin who was shot in the throat, the all-of-a-sudden-psychopathic camp administrator) has been poor.
Certainly not a patch on the last series of Torchwood, for me, but I'll see it through to the end in the hopes of a grand finale that will blow my socks off.
Microbes are alive but nobody cares about their quality of life. The dust might be alive but, one assumes, it wouldn't be sentient and it wouldn't be taking up resources to sustain it or store it or become a breeding ground for diseases.
If category 1's really are as brain dead and irredeemable as the government apparently intends them to be then I really don't see why anyone would object to the ovens, to be honest.
It's pretty clear that the category 1s are not all brain dead. Gwen's father clearly wasn't, nor were some of the category 1s at the camp in America where Vera was murdered. The man at the shop Gwen was looting said he didn't dare take his wife to the doctor with her arthritis, as people with back pain had been rumoured to have been declared to be category 1.
It's pretty clear that the category 1s are not all brain dead. Gwen's father clearly wasn't, nor were some of the category 1s at the camp in America where Vera was murdered. The man at the shop Gwen was looting said he didn't dare take his wife to the doctor with her arthritis, as people with back pain had been rumoured to have been declared to be category 1.
I don't remember that last bit. I assumed that the public believed that Category #1s were what they were defined to be. As long as they believe that, there's no reason for them to be upset about it.
Of course, abuse of the system by incorrect categorization is not so forgiveable.
I don't remember that last bit. I assumed that the public believed that Category #1s were what they were defined to be. As long as they believe that, there's no reason for them to be upset about it.
Of course, abuse of the system by incorrect categorization is not so forgiveable.
I think the problem with that is that relatives never accept that someone is really dead (otherwise people wouldn't be kept on life support machines).
If one of my family members had a bad accident or stroke and was classified as a category 1, I would run against it. The brain can recover (plasticity), and a lot of people who have severe brain damage could make a recovery. Under the rules here, they would be classfied as category 1. If I had been Gwen I would have acted in exactly the same way.
If category 1's really are as brain dead and irredeemable as the government apparently intends them to be then I really don't see why anyone would object to the ovens, to be honest.
And contrariwise, if someone wants to keep a Category 1 at home, I don't see why the government would object to that. I understand that they didn't want the hospitals burdened with them, but if someone else will take them, that ought to be fine. (It seems infectious disease isn't an issue.)
It seems to me there must be more to it. The government must have an ulterior motive for hoovering up as many Category 1s as they can. And probably quite a lot of people need to involved in the conspiracy. Mild spoilers for ep 9:
We still don't know what that reason is. Although we have more basis for speculation now.
Comments
I have a feeling we're supposed to forget about that bit. If they wanted a 'soul-searching' showdown between Jack and Gwen and the Angelo backstory all they had to do was tell it, have Jack and Gwen together, get a call telling Jack Angelo wanted him, he wanted to go and Gwen spouted off all her stuff to him as she'd rather do something else or whatever. Of course it could be that as they'd signed up Gwen's entire family they thought they should refer to them once in a while to remind the Americans there's a vaguely British/Welsh connection?
Gwen had to kidnap Jack because her family was being held hostage against his delivery. You did get that much, I hope. Gwen's family was kidnapped to ensure that she would deliver Jack. There is very little here not to understand. Someone wanted to have Jack appear in person and Gwen was the method of delivery that they had available.
Well, it has been established that he is what everyone thinks he is; the worst kind of criminal that can be imagined.What could be more dispicable than a man who would rape and murder a 12 year old girl? Answer: the guy who does so and then says that she should have run faster. In the US, we don't execute people every day of the week. It is only after years of appeals and seemingly endless legal debates that a person is actually subjected to corporal punishment. If this was a real person then he would have had 15 - 20 years to find some loophole that would allow him to walk free. Far more often than not, it is found that there is some flaw in the prosecutions case, or in the evidence collection, or some other BS that allows the offender to go free.
In this instance, in fact, this was my first problem with the series. As a US citizen, I know that he couldn't threaten the governor of a state and just walk free the next day. Even if he was right, and could prove it, the process alone could take months or years. Oswald Danes has had every opportunity to avoid the death penalty and has fallen short. The whole point of his popularity with the common man is that he has managed to survive, in spite of his legal condemnation.
Now, as for the reactions of Gwen and Jack, please don't ask me to explain. I would have no problem with leaving him to the mercy of Rhys (or lack thereof) while trying to work through the next steps. Why they felt it neccesary to take him along is beyond me. I can only assume that it equates to Frodo's insistance that Gollum will have some crucial part to play before the end.
I beg to differ. The thing that is hard to understand is why Angelo would need to threaten violence to Gwen's family in order to get her to forcibly abduct Jack and bring him to a meeting that he would have gone to freely and voluntarity simply by them name-dropping Angelo.
It was obvious that they didn't mean any harm to Jack so why subject him and Gwen (and Gwen's family) to such a violent and traumatic ordeal?
Of course that's hard to understand! It makes no sense.
Regards
Julian
Well, Jack and Angelo's parting was not by mutual agreement, and there was no reason for his descendents to believe that he would come "voluntarily by them name-dropping Angelo." I agree that it was overplayed, but it should still be understandable in the context. Remember that this is RTD that we're talking about. My biggest problem with the whole situation was not what they did, but how they did it. How did Angelo's granddaughter know about, and know how to, access the alien technology of the lenses and force Gwen to obey them in the first place? There was nothing in the previous episode to let us know that Angelo had any knowledge of this possibilty. Yet, he has been able to instruct his family in enough detail that they could intervene at just the right moment to bring Jack to his deathbed.
To me, what was a clever plot device in CoE has been turned into a catch-all for "what do I do now?" Witness the fact that they have only been useful for visual information in the past, but now they are able to record a rogue CIA member's confession.
It would seem that Angelo has had access to the alien technology that used to be stored at the Torchwood hub (i.e. the null field) so, presumably, the ability to hijack the lenses was from similarly stolen technology.
While it's possible that Jack wouldn't have come just by Angelo asking (even though his granddaughter, I believe, actually said that he would have). It seems like a bit of a drastic scenario to cause all that trauma to someone's friends and family if your intentions are apparently benign.
At the very least they could have offered Jack the invitation and, if he didn't come, then use the kidnapping as a plan B. It seems to me that the granddaughter was just being deliberately malicious for no good reason :rolleyes:
It is certainly very odd, and doesn't make much sense, but maybe you put your finger on something. The granddaughter was clearly very displeased with Jack and seem to resent the relationship her grandfather had with him, maybe it was her kind of revenge? I think it needed to be made more explicit though.
Microbes are alive but nobody cares about their quality of life. The dust might be alive but, one assumes, it wouldn't be sentient and it wouldn't be taking up resources to sustain it or store it or become a breeding ground for diseases.
If category 1's really are as brain dead and irredeemable as the government apparently intends them to be then I really don't see why anyone would object to the ovens, to be honest.
I hate to say it, but I think this really just boils down to one of the many examples this series of sloppy, ill-thought-through writing. Some bits of this series of Torchwood have been fab, but an awful lot of the writing (when are people who can't die really dead, why did Gwen's family have to be kidnapped, whatever did happen to the assassin who was shot in the throat, the all-of-a-sudden-psychopathic camp administrator) has been poor.
Certainly not a patch on the last series of Torchwood, for me, but I'll see it through to the end in the hopes of a grand finale that will blow my socks off.
It's pretty clear that the category 1s are not all brain dead. Gwen's father clearly wasn't, nor were some of the category 1s at the camp in America where Vera was murdered. The man at the shop Gwen was looting said he didn't dare take his wife to the doctor with her arthritis, as people with back pain had been rumoured to have been declared to be category 1.
I don't remember that last bit. I assumed that the public believed that Category #1s were what they were defined to be. As long as they believe that, there's no reason for them to be upset about it.
Of course, abuse of the system by incorrect categorization is not so forgiveable.
I think the problem with that is that relatives never accept that someone is really dead (otherwise people wouldn't be kept on life support machines).
If one of my family members had a bad accident or stroke and was classified as a category 1, I would run against it. The brain can recover (plasticity), and a lot of people who have severe brain damage could make a recovery. Under the rules here, they would be classfied as category 1. If I had been Gwen I would have acted in exactly the same way.
That's because it was in the following episode "The Gathering", not "End of the Road".
Ah. Haven't watched The Gathering yet I was already recording two things at once and have had to wait for the repeat!
It seems to me there must be more to it. The government must have an ulterior motive for hoovering up as many Category 1s as they can. And probably quite a lot of people need to involved in the conspiracy. Mild spoilers for ep 9:
Sorry, I probably shouldn't have posted details of this week's episode on last week's thread