Do you view Wolfe Tone as wilfully blind or is it only Catholic Unionists and not Protestant Nationalists?:D
As a Dissenter, Wolfe Tone's people were every bit as discriminated against back in the 1700s as the Catholics, so for him to rebel against the establishment was standing up for his own people, not betraying them.
Denis Henry was elected as MP for South Londonderry in 1916.
Before his election the Orange Order came out and publicly declared their vocal backing and support for Sir Denis, a Roman Catholic member of the Ulster Unionist Party.
Whilst Henry was not the leader of the UUP as an MP he was a leading member of the party and served as the Attorney General and Lord Chief Justice for Northern Ireland so technically there was a Catholic in a leading Government post at the formation of Northern Ireland.
Now granted there wasn't many Catholics in the Government, but the fact is most Unionists are Protestants, therefore most in the UUP were going to be Protestant. Also the vast majority of Protestants don't join Unionist Parties so it was unlikely that many Catholics would either even with a substantial Catholic Pro Union population.
Regarding Catholics in the UUP it is sad that two leading Catholic members have died in the space of the last few months-those being Sir John Gorman and also Lord Ballyedmond who although a Conservative in the House of Lords had previously sat as an Ulster Unionist in the House of Lords.
Oh yes, I am fully aware of Sir Denis Henry, Sir John Gorman, who I have a lot of respect for and regret his recent death, and Lord Ballyedmond. However having Sir Denis as AG at the outset didn't curb the sectarian posturing of the utterly odious Dawson Bates, Basil Brooke's eliding of all Catholics as "rebels" in the early thirties and the complete freezing out of Catholics from the Special Constabulary. I'm sympathetic to the Union but a lot of its defenders were (and are) its own worst enemies when it came to posturing for political reasons.
Brookes comment was in relation to Protestants who employed Catholics. He spoke out against this. It was nothing to do with the ROI. That sectarianism was all his own.
Gorman and the others were happy to be part of the same party as this hate filled man. Still, they got a nice title, so I suppose the trough was deep enough for them.
As far as I'm aware Gorman only joined the party around the Good Friday Agreement, I think he got his title for services during the 2nd World War or possibly for being an Inspector in the Police.
Tone killed many Protestants during his Rebellion, so most Protestants would have disagreed with him.
Oh yes, I am fully aware of Sir Denis Henry, Sir John Gorman, who I have a lot of respect for and regret his recent death, and Lord Ballyedmond. However having Sir Denis as AG at the outset didn't curb the sectarian posturing of the utterly odious Dawson Bates, Basil Brooke's eliding of all Catholics as "rebels" in the early thirties and the complete freezing out of Catholics from the Special Constabulary. I'm sympathetic to the Union but a lot of its defenders were (and are) its own worst enemies when it came to posturing for political reasons.
As far as I'm aware or at least read the RUC was 30% Catholic before the Troubles kicked off.
I believe part of the reason there was eventually so few Catholics in the RUC was Republican intimidation of Catholics from joining the Police, and then they would complain about the lack of Catholics in the RUC after help playing a part in it via intimidation and targeting of Catholic Officers.
Pretty much sums it up. Ni21 are an example of how Unionism msy be able to attract Catholic votes now.
Fat cats like those above are totally unrepresentative of the general Catholic population at that time however. Happy with their titles and wilfully blind.
Basil and John could not have picked a worse time to publicly fall out with one another.
Just two days before an election or whatever. I was going to vote for them but it put me off voting for them. Think it may have done same to a lot of voters.
Basil and John could not have picked a worse time to publicly fall out with one another.
Just two days before an election or whatever. I was going to vote for them but it put me off voting for them. Think it may have done same to a lot of voters.
Yeah totally bizarre. The redesignation from Unionism to 'other' made no sense as that's pretty much the Alliance position.
Shame as i, and other Catholics I know, liked Basil and John. Certainly enough for a lower preference vote. The possibility of attracting catholic votes to this type of Unionist party remains a viable possibility but we'll have to see how the fallout from this ends up.
It depresses me too. I'm beginning to consider now that in the unlikely event that I ever have children in this country, I wouldn't have them brought up in Northern Ireland. I may have to emigrate.
I fundementally disagree with the structure of the education system in Northern Ireland. I don't want my kids ever growing up in a society where in a "us" against "them" scenario.
I understand that we have an awful legacy of the troubles to deal with, and they should never be forgotten, but we need to start looking forward and building for the future. Electing politicians who keep profusely going on about the troubles looking to the past only ensures that our children grow up with the same sectarian bitter attitudes as the previous generation.
The constitutional position of Northern Ireland irrelevant to me now, really is, whether we have a northern Ireland part of the UK, or part of the south, we'll still have the same old sectarian divisions in either case if nothing gets done.
Northern Ireland does have some of the most brilliant friendliest people in the world, I'll always speak highly of them in that regard everytime I'm abroad
Maybe I'm naive, stupid, and stubborn, whatever you want to call me. But I don't believe emigrating solves anything. I'm too stubborn, and I don't want to let this country succumb to bigotry, further sectarianism and racism without a fight. I want to see myself as having a longterm future in NI. There's something very, very wrong with a system that prevents young people from gaining much needed economic experience and opportunities. Everyone should be able to and want to contribute to their own societies. I accept that for a lot of people in Northern Ireland this is sadly not the case. Yes, it's frustrating, yes, it's a long and difficult road, but dinosaurs can't live forever. I'd never even have believed we'd come as far as we have in the last 16 years, even if at times, especially recently, it seems as though we do take a few steps backwards when we take steps forward. I'm 21, and many people I am friends with my age voted for the more moderate Alliance and Green party, including me. To quote Cinderella's fairy godmother, "Even miracles take a little time". As you said, we are awesome, friendly when people get to know us, and I don't see the constitutional issue as being all that much of an issue any more either (although it will be interesting to see what happens to Scotland in September). For now, I'm more concerned about the absolute embarrassment of a Health Minister that we have though
So much of this stems from the overtaking of the SF and DUP after the GFA in 1998, after their more moderate counterparts had done all the political heavy lifting to even get to this point.
Its an embarrassment to NI that the extremist wings became the biggest show in town after the bombs, guns and much of the overt daily sectarianism had largely ceased.
You're left with two parties happy to play the stubborn orange and green card as long as they get the votes....and each time, they get enough.
I doubt that even naive but promising failures like NI21 would have enticed an electorate that has seriously tuned out. I doubt many would vote no matter the situation, but I bet many are disillusioned with the reality of lowest common denominator tribalism winning at the ballot box - how is this acceptable 15 years on from the period in question, and why is it seemingly healthier than ever? Is it now ok for people to resort to the same old habits because it manifests itself in Stormont, rather than on the street?
So much of this stems from the overtaking of the SF and DUP after the GFA in 1998, after their more moderate counterparts had done all the political heavy lifting to even get to this point.
Its an embarrassment to NI that the extremist wings became the biggest show in town after the bombs, guns and much of the overt daily sectarianism had largely ceased.
You're left with two parties happy to play the stubborn orange and green card as long as they get the votes....and each time, they get enough.
I doubt that even naive but promising failures like NI21 would have enticed an electorate that has seriously tuned out. I doubt many would vote no matter the situation, but I bet many are disillusioned with the reality of lowest common denominator tribalism winning at the ballot box - how is this acceptable 15 years on from the period in question, and why is it seemingly healthier than ever? Is it now ok for people to resort to the same old habits because it manifests itself in Stormont, rather than on the street?
Never underestimate the power of communitarian thinking in Northern Ireland, and in fact in many (not all) places in the Republic. In plainer English, groupthink. Sinn Féin are playing a very long game, voter by voter and here is a good summary why they are as successful as they are. In the longer run, people like me who have contrary opinions and a stake in property will not be welcome in their new Ireland, unless we conform, say nothing and pay up whatever is demanded of us.
Comments
As a Dissenter, Wolfe Tone's people were every bit as discriminated against back in the 1700s as the Catholics, so for him to rebel against the establishment was standing up for his own people, not betraying them.
Wolfe Tone wanted to change an unjust society.
. Gorman wanted to maintain the status quo.
Oh yes, I am fully aware of Sir Denis Henry, Sir John Gorman, who I have a lot of respect for and regret his recent death, and Lord Ballyedmond. However having Sir Denis as AG at the outset didn't curb the sectarian posturing of the utterly odious Dawson Bates, Basil Brooke's eliding of all Catholics as "rebels" in the early thirties and the complete freezing out of Catholics from the Special Constabulary. I'm sympathetic to the Union but a lot of its defenders were (and are) its own worst enemies when it came to posturing for political reasons.
As far as I'm aware Gorman only joined the party around the Good Friday Agreement, I think he got his title for services during the 2nd World War or possibly for being an Inspector in the Police.
Tone killed many Protestants during his Rebellion, so most Protestants would have disagreed with him.
As far as I'm aware or at least read the RUC was 30% Catholic before the Troubles kicked off.
I believe part of the reason there was eventually so few Catholics in the RUC was Republican intimidation of Catholics from joining the Police, and then they would complain about the lack of Catholics in the RUC after help playing a part in it via intimidation and targeting of Catholic Officers.
Basil and John could not have picked a worse time to publicly fall out with one another.
Just two days before an election or whatever. I was going to vote for them but it put me off voting for them. Think it may have done same to a lot of voters.
Yeah totally bizarre. The redesignation from Unionism to 'other' made no sense as that's pretty much the Alliance position.
Shame as i, and other Catholics I know, liked Basil and John. Certainly enough for a lower preference vote. The possibility of attracting catholic votes to this type of Unionist party remains a viable possibility but we'll have to see how the fallout from this ends up.
Maybe I'm naive, stupid, and stubborn, whatever you want to call me. But I don't believe emigrating solves anything. I'm too stubborn, and I don't want to let this country succumb to bigotry, further sectarianism and racism without a fight. I want to see myself as having a longterm future in NI. There's something very, very wrong with a system that prevents young people from gaining much needed economic experience and opportunities. Everyone should be able to and want to contribute to their own societies. I accept that for a lot of people in Northern Ireland this is sadly not the case. Yes, it's frustrating, yes, it's a long and difficult road, but dinosaurs can't live forever. I'd never even have believed we'd come as far as we have in the last 16 years, even if at times, especially recently, it seems as though we do take a few steps backwards when we take steps forward. I'm 21, and many people I am friends with my age voted for the more moderate Alliance and Green party, including me. To quote Cinderella's fairy godmother, "Even miracles take a little time". As you said, we are awesome, friendly when people get to know us, and I don't see the constitutional issue as being all that much of an issue any more either (although it will be interesting to see what happens to Scotland in September). For now, I'm more concerned about the absolute embarrassment of a Health Minister that we have though
Its an embarrassment to NI that the extremist wings became the biggest show in town after the bombs, guns and much of the overt daily sectarianism had largely ceased.
You're left with two parties happy to play the stubborn orange and green card as long as they get the votes....and each time, they get enough.
I doubt that even naive but promising failures like NI21 would have enticed an electorate that has seriously tuned out. I doubt many would vote no matter the situation, but I bet many are disillusioned with the reality of lowest common denominator tribalism winning at the ballot box - how is this acceptable 15 years on from the period in question, and why is it seemingly healthier than ever? Is it now ok for people to resort to the same old habits because it manifests itself in Stormont, rather than on the street?
Never underestimate the power of communitarian thinking in Northern Ireland, and in fact in many (not all) places in the Republic. In plainer English, groupthink. Sinn Féin are playing a very long game, voter by voter and here is a good summary why they are as successful as they are. In the longer run, people like me who have contrary opinions and a stake in property will not be welcome in their new Ireland, unless we conform, say nothing and pay up whatever is demanded of us.
http://jasonomahony.ie/john-mcguirk-why-the-sinn-fein-will-face-labours-fate-in-government-analysis-is-wrong/
perhaps i should have phrased that more accurately, that is that "panders to those of the party's voters withe the most bigotted views.