Zoe Quinn and the corruption in video games media/journalism....

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  • stoatiestoatie Posts: 78,106
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    Interesting (and sad) that GG now seem to be going after Tyler Wilde, whose relationship with Anne Lewis has been public knowledge for years; they even present podcasts together, hardly top secret stuff. And this hasn't rustled anyone's jimmies until a couple of days ago when he wrote a piece criticising use of the term "PC Master Race". It's almost as if they didn't actually CARE about the alleged conflict of interests, but are now just using it as a stick to hit him with for daring to suggest that some things about gaming culture could maybe do with being questioned.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,889
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    Simple answer: Don't buy'em.
  • DiabolusDiabolus Posts: 1,012
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    pickwick wrote: »
    There are issues in games journalism (and a lot of other types of journalism), but Gamergate's got nothing to do with them - it started as a way to harass a woman, and it's continued in that vein. If you want to protest dodgy journalism legitimately then start a new movement, make it a welcoming one for everyone, target male and female journalists and devs proportionately, have zero tolerance for harassment, etc.

    There isn't a "gamers hate women" thing, there's just a "gamergaters hate women" thing. Again, gamergaters ≠ gamers.

    Again, all this does is demonstrate a total lack of understanding of what it is all about. Genuinely. I'm not being harsh but this post shows that you really don't understand it at all.

    As others have said, don't take my word for it, read the link tghe-retford posted (and it's written by a woman btw,) which is a factual and accurate summary of what it's actually about, not what some people continue to wrongly assume it's about.

    The harassment of women (or men or anyone for that matter) is a serious issue, and one that is denounced categorically, but it is a separate issue, and merely a (very effective from the looks of it) sidetrack.

    How people can still get this pretty basic stuff confused when there is a wealth of information out that to the contrary, is beyond me.
  • juliancarswelljuliancarswell Posts: 8,896
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    " How people can still get this pretty basic stuff confused when there is a wealth of information out that to the contrary, is beyond me. "

    It's called deflecting.
  • CryolemonCryolemon Posts: 8,670
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    stoatie wrote: »
    Interesting (and sad) that GG now seem to be going after Tyler Wilde, whose relationship with Anne Lewis has been public knowledge for years; they even present podcasts together, hardly top secret stuff. And this hasn't rustled anyone's jimmies until a couple of days ago when he wrote a piece criticising use of the term "PC Master Race". It's almost as if they didn't actually CARE about the alleged conflict of interests, but are now just using it as a stick to hit him with for daring to suggest that some things about gaming culture could maybe do with being questioned.

    Most people don't care about the conflicts of interest, no, they are just using it as an excuse to make death threats.

    What it also does (probably unintentionally) is make it impossible to complain about the conflicts of interest without immediately being called a misogynist and GG supporter.
  • ThatGuy11200ThatGuy11200 Posts: 1,459
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    Cryolemon wrote: »
    Most people don't care about the conflicts of interest, no, they are just using it as an excuse to make death threats.

    What it also does (probably unintentionally) is make it impossible to complain about the conflicts of interest without immediately being called a misogynist and GG supporter.

    Which is a reason why the suggestion of some on here, that those who are against corruption should make a new group, wouldn't work. Because the new group would immediately be linked to gamergate and called misogynistic.
  • NefratiNefrati Posts: 558
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    Oh its kicking off....


    Do you Even Ethics? #GamerGate vs Nightline Edition
    NEET LIFE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGAetdlStjo

    ABC is outright censoring women - need help
    veemonro
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McPO4RQxy4U

    http://vidauniversoetudo.tumblr.com/post/108257320844/actuallyaboutethics-tonight-on-abcs
    https://imgur.com/gallery/iX00h/new
    https://archive.today/https://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=gAyncf3DBUQ

    Massive censorship of comments by ABC news on their Nightline smear piece with Sarkeesian.

    They even deleted Total Biscuits comment which had almost 3k up votes, if you don't know he's a huge youtuber with almost 2 million subscribers.



    GamerGate 16.0
    TheAndredal
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NmF05EtuhM

    original video link, its almost at 12k downvotes at this point....
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAyncf3DBUQ
  • pickwickpickwick Posts: 25,739
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    Diabolus wrote: »
    Again, all this does is demonstrate a total lack of understanding of what it is all about. Genuinely. I'm not being harsh but this post shows that you really don't understand it at all.

    As others have said, don't take my word for it, read the link tghe-retford posted (and it's written by a woman btw,) which is a factual and accurate summary of what it's actually about, not what some people continue to wrongly assume it's about.

    The harassment of women (or men or anyone for that matter) is a serious issue, and one that is denounced categorically, but it is a separate issue, and merely a (very effective from the looks of it) sidetrack.

    How people can still get this pretty basic stuff confused when there is a wealth of information out that to the contrary, is beyond me.
    I mean, there's probably no point in us just going "No, YOU'RE wrong" at each other, is there? I've read plenty of Gamergater articles, some of them by women, because women can be wrong too. When you say "it's factual", you mean "it agrees with me". If it says Gamergate was originally about ethics in games journalism, it's wrong. And even if it had been, that would have been overshadowed by the behaviour of some participants. These days, saying you're a Gamergater because of journalistic ethics is like saying you're a BNP member because of their education policies. It might be true, but it means you're willing to overlook all the other shit they do that's actually hurting people. And that sucks.
  • reglipreglip Posts: 5,268
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    pickwick wrote: »
    I mean, there's probably no point in us just going "No, YOU'RE wrong" at each other, is there? I've read plenty of Gamergater articles, some of them by women, because women can be wrong too. When you say "it's factual", you mean "it agrees with me". If it says Gamergate was originally about ethics in games journalism, it's wrong. And even if it had been, that would have been overshadowed by the behaviour of some participants. These days, saying you're a Gamergater because of journalistic ethics is like saying you're a BNP member because of their education policies. It might be true, but it means you're willing to overlook all the other shit they do that's actually hurting people. And that sucks.

    Can you provide any evidence of these alleged gamergater crimes, or policies as you are making that bnp comparison?
  • pickwickpickwick Posts: 25,739
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    reglip wrote: »
    Can you provide any evidence of these alleged gamergater crimes, or policies as you are making that bnp comparison?
    The doxxing, swatting, rape and murder threats, bomb threats and abuse have all been mentioned on this thread - I posted a link to a story about one of the swattings just on the previous page. There was an 8chan screenshot going about last week where some channers/ gaters talked about which people with mental health problems they'd try to drive to suicide, too.

    But I expect none of that was REAL gamergaters.
  • reglipreglip Posts: 5,268
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    pickwick wrote: »
    The doxxing, swatting, rape and murder threats, bomb threats and abuse have all been mentioned on this thread - I posted a link to a story about one of the swattings just on the previous page. There was an 8chan screenshot going about last week where some channers/ gaters talked about which people with mental health problems they'd try to drive to suicide, too.

    But I expect none of that was REAL gamergaters.


    So what. Someone doxxed someone, someone swatted someone, whats that got to do with me? Whats it got to do with gamergate? Someone replied to your post pointing out how anti-gamergate people had used doxx, swat techniques but you didnt reply. Do you think you, and people with an anti-gamergate stance are now tainted by their actions? Its employing really pathetic logic. It means any movement can be subverted and rendered void by someone, somewhere doing something negative. Using your logic all being anti-gamergate means is extremism, abuse and bullying. Would that be a fair summing up of your stance? Or was none of it done by REAL anti-gamergaters?
  • tghe-retfordtghe-retford Posts: 26,449
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    pickwick wrote: »
    Claiming that anyone against Gamergate is "anti-gamer" doesn't actually do the reputation of gamers any favours, you know. Makes me think you guys don't really care about gaming - if you did you'd stop associating it with threats, stalking and misogyny.

    Any of you got any comment to make on the SWATting of some of Gamergate's enemies, something that could easily have got them killed? Just "a few nutters" again, I'm sure.
    GamerGate has nothing to do with threats, stalking or misogyny. The only people making that claim are people and MSM outlets with an agenda to smear the campaign for their own gain both ideologically and financially. For Sarkeesian, Wu et al, GamerGate has been an excellent opportunity to get the begging bowl out.
    claire2281 wrote: »
    There are an awful lot of those 'just a few nutters' in this so called movement, aren't there?

    The biggest pity is that all these whining dinosaurs have managed to do is make all gamers look like socially incompetent teenage boys with too much time on their hands. All this starting over a review that didn't even exist.
    Approaching six months, advertisers pulling out of websites, the Federal Trade Commission introducing new guidance on hidden affiliate links, websites including IGN, The Escapist and tonight, PC Gamer, introducing new ethics and disclosure policies. Sure bears all the hallmarks of a campaign to purge women out of video gaming doesn't it?
    pickwick wrote: »
    There are issues in games journalism (and a lot of other types of journalism), but Gamergate's got nothing to do with them - it started as a way to harass a woman, and it's continued in that vein. If you want to protest dodgy journalism legitimately then start a new movement, make it a welcoming one for everyone, target male and female journalists and devs proportionately, have zero tolerance for harassment, etc.

    There isn't a "gamers hate women" thing, there's just a "gamergaters hate women" thing. Again, gamergaters ≠ gamers.
    Untrue. There is a reason why Quinn is referred as "Literally Who" - she has nothing to do with GamerGate. The only person who wants Quinn related to GamerGate is Quinn who'll be doing it for her own gain. And how it has worked with the BBC, The Guardian amongst other media outlets and her Patreon account.

    You don't have to be a gamer to realise that unethical practices, corruption and collusion by video game journalists is wrong.
    The thing was though that Anita Sarkeesian had nothing to do with Gamergate. She's not a journalist and was only doing a series on tropes in gaming on her youtube channel. As much as I disagree with some points she has made, to make out that she's somehow involved in this "corruption in games journalism" is ridiculous. It's through the actions of gamergaters that she's involved at all. ;-)
    GamerGate refers to her as "Literally Who 2", for the same reason I explained above. I agree she has nothing to do with GamerGate, the only reason why she is being brought up is because she has seen that GG is an opportunity to enhance her public exposure by claiming that GG is a hate group intent on killing or raping her, playing the victim and then subsequently benefiting from all the MSM exposure.

    I would not be surprised after this ABC hit-piece if a new Tropes vs Women gets uploaded soon and the inevitable claims of rape and death threats from GamerGate quickly follow, despite there being no evidence or tagging of the hashtag in said threats.

    It should also be noted as common sense and the darn obvious that no-one in GamerGate supports threats or harassment*. Those responsible should be reported and face the consequences of their actions.

    * - legitimate criticism and scrutiny is not harassment.
    stoatie wrote: »
    Interesting (and sad) that GG now seem to be going after Tyler Wilde, whose relationship with Anne Lewis has been public knowledge for years; they even present podcasts together, hardly top secret stuff. And this hasn't rustled anyone's jimmies until a couple of days ago when he wrote a piece criticising use of the term "PC Master Race". It's almost as if they didn't actually CARE about the alleged conflict of interests, but are now just using it as a stick to hit him with for daring to suggest that some things about gaming culture could maybe do with being questioned.
    Not so hard for PC Gamer to implement disclosure and apologise knowing they have done the wrong thing:

    http://www.pcgamer.com/a-note-on-disclosure/
    Nefrati wrote: »
    Oh its kicking off....
    It sure is. I made sure I made ABC fully aware of the intellectual dishonesty they have succombed to:

    http://i.imgur.com/zxsh3SB.png

    I made sure to snapshot it knowing that ABC had been partaking in the utterly cowardly behaviour of removing comments that have gone at odds with what their agenda is.
  • tghe-retfordtghe-retford Posts: 26,449
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    reglip wrote: »
    So what. Someone doxxed someone, someone swatted someone, whats that got to do with me? Whats it got to do with gamergate? Someone replied to your post pointing out how anti-gamergate people had used doxx, swat techniques but you didnt reply. Do you think you, and people with an anti-gamergate stance are now tainted by their actions? Its employing really pathetic logic. It means any movement can be subverted and rendered void by someone, somewhere doing something negative. Using your logic all being anti-gamergate means is extremism, abuse and bullying. Would that be a fair summing up of your stance? Or was none of it done by REAL anti-gamergaters?
    The same anti-gamers who use the fallacy that 8chan hosts illegal content, 8chan has a GamerGate board, therefore GamerGate is a criminal organisation?
  • pickwickpickwick Posts: 25,739
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    Untrue. There is a reason why Quinn is referred as "Literally Who" - she has nothing to do with GamerGate. The only person who wants Quinn related to GamerGate is Quinn who'll be doing it for her own gain. And how it has worked with the BBC, The Guardian amongst other media outlets and her Patreon account.
    You might want to let people like VDUBster know then, he was talking about her on the previous page ;) Unless you're going to try and tell me "Can you not see that it is highly suspect for a positive review to be given to a game which was created by a developer who was having a relationship with the critic?" refers to someone else...

    The idea that Quinn is "winning" out of this is utterly horrible, and if you believe that, I guess it proves you truly don't care about doxxing, threats and harassment.
  • AllyourKittyAllyourKitty Posts: 897
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    pickwick wrote: »
    The idea that Quinn is "winning" out of this is utterly horrible, and if you believe that, I guess it proves you truly don't care about doxxing, threats and harassment.

    She has certainly financially enriched herself which seems a common stratagem with these types. Play the victim card; acquire currency.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 557
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    pickwick wrote: »
    I haven't heard about any Gamergaters being swatted. And Gamergate's apparently a movement, whereas being anti-gamergate is just being a decent human being, so I think there's a bit of a difference there in terms of accountability.

    But I don't support Milo getting sent wrapped syringes in the post, no. I prefer to see him being roundly mocked for his pretentious adolescent racist misogynist poetry.

    So why have you never spoken out against this criminal abuse?

    You're not trying to dismiss it as a 'few random nutters' are you?

    You're actively anti-gamergate; therefore if you want to ask gamergate supporters why they haven't spoken out about certain disgusting tactics you have to explain why you yourself have never spoken out about certain tactics when committed by the people on your side.

    You can't just go 'it's not a thing anyway' and keep going:D
  • pickwickpickwick Posts: 25,739
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    Ruthus wrote: »
    So why have you never spoken out against this criminal abuse?

    You're not trying to dismiss it as a 'few random nutters' are you?

    You're actively anti-gamergate; therefore if you want to ask gamergate supporters why they haven't spoken out about certain disgusting tactics you have to explain why you yourself have never spoken out about certain tactics when committed by the people on your side.

    You can't just go 'it's not a thing anyway' and keep going:D
    I don't think I did ask gamergaters why they haven't spoken out about anything.

    And the "being anti-religious is a religion too!" argument doesn't work any better when you reframe it as "being anti-gamergate is a movement too!"
  • Skyclaw726Skyclaw726 Posts: 2,931
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    pickwick wrote: »
    I don't think I did ask gamergaters why they haven't spoken out about anything.

    And the "being anti-religious is a religion too!" argument doesn't work any better when you reframe it as "being anti-gamergate is a movement too!"

    There was a Anti-gamergate movement called stopgamergate2014...it failed on it's ass of course and even had Isis tweet about them.
  • Biffo the BearBiffo the Bear Posts: 25,859
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    Is this still a thing? Can't believe that silly woman's still moaning.
  • reglipreglip Posts: 5,268
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    pickwick wrote: »
    I don't think I did ask gamergaters why they haven't spoken out about anything.

    And the "being anti-religious is a religion too!" argument doesn't work any better when you reframe it as "being anti-gamergate is a movement too!"

    The point is that you highlight individual crimes that are not representative of a whole to attempt to smear the campaign and yet if someone uses your logic you, yourself are tainted and your points defunct.

    Its hypocritical and dishonest
  • tghe-retfordtghe-retford Posts: 26,449
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    pickwick wrote: »
    You might want to let people like VDUBster know then, he was talking about her on the previous page ;) Unless you're going to try and tell me "Can you not see that it is highly suspect for a positive review to be given to a game which was created by a developer who was having a relationship with the critic?" refers to someone else...

    The idea that Quinn is "winning" out of this is utterly horrible, and if you believe that, I guess it proves you truly don't care about doxxing, threats and harassment.
    From the GamerGate Wiki:

    "It is also worth noting that despite it being obvious that Nathan Grayson has never reviewed "Depression Quest" this allegation makes it into the official [Kotaku] statement".


    Source: http://wiki.gamergate.me/index.php?title=Nathan_Grayson

    Yet their concerns about impropriety, bias and failure to disclose that information in the articles he mentioned Depression Quest in are correct.

    And I don't think anyone in GamerGate condones threats, harassment and doxing. Hard as this may be to believe, there are trolls out there who are causing trouble on both sides of this issue to spark a reaction. The right way to deal with them is to report them and ignore them, not use it as point scoring against the other side without proof or evidence.

    Last night, a journalist had his private number made public by a SJW who disliked (in no uncertain terms and unprintable on this forum) the idea that he reached out to her for comment and her side of the story in a article he was due to publish about her.
  • KarlSomethingKarlSomething Posts: 3,529
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    pickwick wrote: »
    I don't think I did ask gamergaters why they haven't spoken out about anything.

    And the "being anti-religious is a religion too!" argument doesn't work any better when you reframe it as "being anti-gamergate is a movement too!"

    Being anti-religious isn't a religion if being a religion involves belief in supernatural entities, and if that is what those who are anti-religious are opposed to.

    But a movement is a fairly generic term that easily can apply to multiple sides in a conflict, especially if no side is anti-movement.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 557
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    pickwick wrote: »
    I don't think I did ask gamergaters why they haven't spoken out about anything.

    And the "being anti-religious is a religion too!" argument doesn't work any better when you reframe it as "being anti-gamergate is a movement too!"
    pickwick wrote: »
    Any of you got any comment to make on the SWATting of some of Gamergate's enemies, something that could easily have got them killed? Just "a few nutters" again, I'm sure.

    It depends what religion you are anti as to whether it is a movement or group.

    Are you saying anti semitism isn't a thing?

    A lot of hate groups use the type of propaganda that you use.
    pickwick wrote: »
    And Gamergate's apparently a movement, whereas being anti-gamergate is just being a decent human being, so I think there's a bit of a difference there in terms of accountability.
    .

    They often try to shift accountability to the group of people they hate and claim that they are just 'normal decent people' for holding such hateful views.

    And lots not forget, we've had very prominent anti-gamergate people expressing a desire to bring back concentration camps and gas chambers for people in gamergate.

    Plus a very popular anti gamergate website which wanted to start a campaign to bring back the bullying of geeks.

    Maybe that was just a few nutters as well.
  • DiabolusDiabolus Posts: 1,012
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    pickwick wrote: »
    I mean, there's probably no point in us just going "No, YOU'RE wrong" at each other, is there? .

    True, but then you could claim that the moon was made of cheese. I could say, no, you are wrong, it isn't, and we'd largely be in the same position we are now.
  • NefratiNefrati Posts: 558
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    Mykeru has much of the threat narrative covered.
    https://www.youtube.com/user/MykeruMedia/videos

    Really if you think about it, the sexism being exposed is the latent benevolent sexism which still exists, which came from a time when women had diminished rights, and thus had elevated protections, much as children do. This is behind the current hysteria over women being harmed by quite literally anything at all, from pictures in media, online comments, to even virtual females in video games. A society this massively and instinctively over protective of women is not misogynistic as feminists like Anita like to claim. And really, this over protective instinct is what these women exploit to do what they do. They know they can always hide behind a cry of "I was harassed" like some maiden of old who looked to a champion to protect her honor...

    This is why so much is said about the phantom harassment of these women while no coverage at all if given to the fact that claims such as the ones made by Brianna Wu of fleeing her house have been proven to be false. Just doesn't fit the narrative, it doesn't fit the bias. It doesn't fit the idea that a society which hates women would bend over this hard to believe the claims of women, even in the face of photographic evidence.

    And in games, this is why you see women like Anita literally walk past the dead bodies of hundreds of dead men to feign outrage over some single virtual female being harmed.... sexism? Yes, we do have some sexism here being exposed, but its not the one they expected.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7mz7ORIYAAAKog.png:large

    Anyways, the gamergate ball keeps rolling.

    The nightline video is at 25.4k downvotes and many comments deleted....

    161,000 views in a day....
    #Equality
    Neel Kolhatkar
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM-HJT8_esM

    The Cognitive Dissonance of the Social Justice Warrior
    Chris Ray Gun
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsOHrd-Punw


    News Media VS Video Games AGAIN - #GamerGate #FullMcIntosh
    Chris Ray Gun
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgbcBoBt-10

    The Curious Case of Kim Kardashian: Hollywood - Top Game of 2014
    yutt
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL2hQpa4EnU


    Video Games, Sexism, and the San Francisco Problem
    yutt
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9ZKqDtFBE0

    RANT: #GamerGate - Zoe Quinn, Journalism, and Anita Sarkeesian
    Chris Ray Gun
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D6EAmH538o

    The Video Games Cause Violence Argument
    Sargon of Akkad
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMWEg-DdUDg


    Threedog's #Gamergate News Radio Ep 15
    Oliver Campbell
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSZ85Ns7qaI

    ABC Nightline reactions

    Anita Sarkeesian & ABC News Both Completely ****ing Suck
    AlphaOmegaSin
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhDTtO_lDTs


    Good @Nightline, Sweet #GamerGate
    Sargon of Akkad
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXOhN2u5wtY

    RE: What It Feels Like to Be a #GamerGate Target (Video Response)
    MundaneMatt
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at-Z-wvFcDo

    Tyler's Views on ABC News
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j1Dz4iqAg4


    And its no surprise that people on the anti gamergate side are promoting self censorship in their statements against Hedbo.
    First World Feminism vs Islam
    Thunderf00t
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRUd4Jn6p8U

    Bonus insanity, Shanley Kanne...
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/12/10/the-madness-of-queen-shanley/
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/01/17/i-taught-shanley-kane-how-to-troll-and-im-sincerely-sorry/
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