I think he single handedly destroyed the Fianna Fáil party. He introduced the concept of corruption to them and made it fashionable....their total collapse in recent years can be traced back to him.
I believed at the time that he was a crook, but people still voted for them. Not me, have never voted FF.
I wasn't alive, I am just going on information that I heard from parents, grandparents, neighbour's... etc... on how brainwashed society and even themselves were from the pulpit.... just watching primetime on RTE, a lady who spent 13 years in a laundry just said when she came out "Nobody cared, nobody listened"... now that's why all of society should be ashamed.
Ah I see , you were not even alive yet you condemm us all on hearsay and the experience of your family
I lived through the times and I object to you condemming all the Irish as many of us knew nothing at all about the issues in those laundries
I lived in Dublin, maybe it was different but I know my own family and those around me had no qualms about speaking up about wrong doing by priests and teachers and Christian Brothers .I know my own mother in the 50;s spoke up about physical abuse in orphanges run by nuns .She spoke up about it in Dublin and I know of a group of women who made sure the nuns knew they were on to them and were willing to report them
I know of others who shouted out for the rights of children and who complained loudly at wrong doing .I know of a committee in one school formed by parents to stop Christian Brothers using physical abuse . Corporol punishment was stopped in schools in the 60,s by parents puting pressure on TD.s .Not all were willing to go along with it like your family and neighbours
Your generation is not the first one to be appalled at abuse you know , we were not all stupid before you
I nursed in the 70's and we knew right from wrong and we reported wrong and we made sure we were heard .One priest was rumbled and reported by nurses willing to put their jobs on the line to save kids being abused .That was 1973 , we were not all to blame .
So dont you dare pontificate to me how I should be ashamed ,I know I did no wrong and I know who was to blame .,
So please dont tar us all with the same brush as you need to have facts and know what was going on in Ireland and not just in the community known to your parents and you neighbours .
I am not not to blame that nobody in the girls community listened , I wasnt there ,. I didnt hear her cry out .
If people did turn their back to her then they know who they are .They are to blame ,not the whole country .
You need to see that it is hurtful to throw blame at those of us who are not to blame .When in fact there were many who were already eyeing up the Church and getting facts and making sure it was reported .
Flinging insults at a whole generation is judgemental and lacks insight IMO .You havent a clue what people were doing in that era to try to stop such crimes against children and women.
By all means condemm the wrong doing , by all means be appallled and by all means call on those who knew to be ashamed .Just dont blame us all without knowing facts .
Ah I see , you were not even alive yet you condemm us all on hearsay and the experience of your family
I lived through the times and I object to you condemming all the Irish as many of us knew nothing at all about the issues in those laundries
I lived in Dublin, maybe it was different but I know my own family and those around me had no qualms about speaking up about wrong doing by priests and teachers and Christian Brothers .I know my own mother in the 50;s spoke up about physical abuse in orphanges run by nuns .She spoke up about it in Dublin and I know of a group of women who made sure the nuns knew they were on to them and were willing to report them
I know of others who shouted out for the rights of children and who complained loudly at wrong doing .I know of a committee in one school formed by parents to stop Christian Brothers using physical abuse . Corporol punishment was stopped in schools in the 60,s by parents puting pressure on TD.s .Not all were willing to go along with it like your family and neighbours
Your generation is not the first one to be appalled at abuse you know , we were not all stupid before you
I nursed in the 70's and we knew right from wrong and we reported wrong and we made sure we were heard .One priest was rumbled and reported by nurses willing to put their jobs on the line to save kids being abused .That was 1973 , we were not all to blame .
So dont you dare pontificate to me how I should be ashamed ,I know I did no wrong and I know who was to blame .,
So please dont tar us all with the same brush as you need to have facts and know what was going on in Ireland and not just in the community known to your parents and you neighbours .
I am not not to blame that nobody in the girls community listened , I wasnt there ,. I didnt hear her cry out .
If people did turn their back to her then they know who they are .They are to blame ,not the whole country .
You need to see that it is hurtful to throw blame at those of us who are not to blame .When in fact there were many who were already eyeing up the Church and getting facts and making sure it was reported .
Flinging insults at a whole generation is judgemental and lacks insight IMO .You havent a clue what people were doing in that era to try to stop such crimes against children and women
I agree with most of what you are saying, but corporal punishment did not end in the 60s. I left school in 1979 and it was still endemic in my Christian Brothers secondary school in Crumlin.
I agree with most of what you are saying, but corporal punishment did not end in the 60s. I left school in 1979 and it was still endemic in my Christian Brothers secondary school in Crumlin.
Sorry , you are right it was fazed out but only became law later on . I know in our schol it stopped in 1969 .Maybe it was parental pressure on the nuns in those early days . Parent comittees were being set up and they had a voice
Yes, all in the name of religion/god/RC church, (delete as appropriate)
All 10 Magdalene Laundries in Ireland were established prior to the foundation of the Irish State. They were founded by Protestant orders and taken over by Catholic orders.
I hope the report is damning. Just watching the news and reading about this on the internet one thing that strikes me is how recent it is and the fact there may well be people on here who have relatives (they themselves) affected by this.
My grandaunt (grandfather's sister) went into one pregnant and came out in a box.
Really? what about the young Hindu woman who spent a week in an Irish bed a month ago and then died because she was refused treatment on religious grounds even though she was not a catholic.Women leave Ireland never to return by the hundreds after falling pregnant out of wedlock due to the shame and hostility they will receive even today. Nothing has changed as far as I can see.
The young Hindu woman is from India - which certainly has its own issues. That investigation is still ongoing and it has nothing to do with this one. There certainly seems to be a lot more to the Savita case than was initially made publicly available. It was an appalling loss but I'm awaiting the report to make judgement. Meanwhile, Ireland still has the second best mortality rate for pregnant women in Europe.
The rest of your post is just quite astonishingly ignorant about Ireland. Everything has changed; thanks to the efforts of Irish women themselves.
Ah I see , you were not even alive yet you condemm us all on hearsay and the experience of your family
I lived through the times and I object to you condemming all the Irish as many of us knew nothing at all about the issues in those laundries
I lived in Dublin, maybe it was different but I know my own family and those around me had no qualms about speaking up about wrong doing by priests and teachers and Christian Brothers .I know my own mother in the 50;s spoke up about physical abuse in orphanges run by nuns .She spoke up about it in Dublin and I know of a group of women who made sure the nuns knew they were on to them and were willing to report them
I know of others who shouted out for the rights of children and who complained loudly at wrong doing .I know of a committee in one school formed by parents to stop Christian Brothers using physical abuse . Corporol punishment was stopped in schools in the 60,s by parents puting pressure on TD.s .Not all were willing to go along with it like your family and neighbours
Your generation is not the first one to be appalled at abuse you know , we were not all stupid before you
I nursed in the 70's and we knew right from wrong and we reported wrong and we made sure we were heard .One priest was rumbled and reported by nurses willing to put their jobs on the line to save kids being abused .That was 1973 , we were not all to blame .
So dont you dare pontificate to me how I should be ashamed ,I know I did no wrong and I know who was to blame .,
So please dont tar us all with the same brush as you need to have facts and know what was going on in Ireland and not just in the community known to your parents and you neighbours .
I am not not to blame that nobody in the girls community listened , I wasnt there ,. I didnt hear her cry out .
If people did turn their back to her then they know who they are .They are to blame ,not the whole country .
You need to see that it is hurtful to throw blame at those of us who are not to blame .When in fact there were many who were already eyeing up the Church and getting facts and making sure it was reported .
Flinging insults at a whole generation is judgemental and lacks insight IMO .You havent a clue what people were doing in that era to try to stop such crimes against children and women.
By all means condemm the wrong doing , by all means be appallled and by all means call on those who knew to be ashamed .Just dont blame us all without knowing facts .
Well there is obviously a big distinction between Dublin and the rest of the country. Things like the stations were still taken very very seriously up until the the early 1990's, again with a bended knee to the local priest... You don't seem to understand what I said a couple of times now, I don't blame you but I do blame society in general who accepted and stood by and continued to let the Catholic Church rule with an iron fist.. I know the facts, thousands of children and women were abused in institutions, many of which were put in there because society had outcast them as unclean and not proper Catholics ... Why shouldn't everyone take some responsibility?? ... I know there was people who should be commended for standing up and making their voices heard, but my god the vast vast majority of people kept their head down not to upset the establishment and cause embarrassment to themselves or their families.... You can defend previous generations all you want but the fact remains thousands of people were sent into institutions because of a brainwashed society who demonised them.
Well there is obviously a big distinction between Dublin and the rest of the country. Things like the stations were still taken very very seriously up until the the early 1990's, again with a bended knee to the local priest... You don't seem to understand what I said a couple of times now, I don't blame you but I do blame society in general who accepted and stood by and continued to let the Catholic Church rule with an iron fist.. I know the facts, thousands of children and women were abused in institutions, many of which were put in there because society had outcast them as unclean and not proper Catholics ... Why shouldn't everyone take some responsibility?? ... I know there was people who should be commended for standing up and making their voices heard, but my god the vast vast majority of people kept their head down not to upset the establishment and cause embarrassment to themselves or their families.... You can defend previous generations all you want but the fact remains thousands of people were sent into institutions because of a brainwashed society who demonised them.
My very last word on this matter to you now .What you dont understand is that a society is made up of people, individuals , you and I , babies and children .So blaming society is blaming every single one of them .You simply do not hear me say I am not defending a whole generation , I am defending some of that generation .
Blame the right people and you will make more sense .
My very last word on this matter to you now .What you dont understand is that a society is made up of people, individuals , you and I , babies and children .So blaming society is blaming every single one of them .You simply do not hear me say I am not defending a whole generation , I am defending some of that generation .
Blame the right people and you will make more sense .
And what of the poor people who came out of these places and said nobody listened and nobody cared? ... Most if not all were told they were lying and making these story's up by almost everyone, everyone heard story's about these places at the time but very very few acted to stand up for these people.
Depressingly the report finds that parents often actively colluded in the girls being imprisoned. Ireland clearly was a dysfunctional and pretty twisted society in it's attitudes to children and things like sexuality.
Interestingly though, the report finds that the industrial schools for boys were much, much worse and the boys frequently suffered physical and sexual abuse which doesn't appear to have happened to the girls.
Every society was fairly dysfunctional and twisted in its attitudes to children and women if we scratch the surface. What does, for instance, the case of Jimmy Saville tell us about the climate in Britain at about the same time?
The state did not refuse that lady an abortion .A doctor in a hospital refused her an abortion and the reasons have not yet been clarified .For all we know the doctor was working alone and made that desicion alone .Because in Galway Univ Hospital there were other cases where an abortion was carried out to save the mother .,The results of an enquiry is not yet published and so the facts are not yet clear so you make assumptions with no base in fact
The vast vast majority of people at the time kept their head down and saw institutions like these as a method of fixing problems like unmarried pregnant mothers, they blindly followed the message of the pulpit like sheep and for that society must take responsibility to make sure it never happens again.
This is true, sadly. I've had a conversation with my much-loved parents (both now in their 70s) about this issue and I had to actually walk away, I got so angry with them. EVERYONE knew about these institutions and why they were there and who was in them and who put them in them. There was a tacit societal acceptance. Meanwhile, the men went on drinking and playing hurling with the fathers of the children.
In response to this report and others, the government of the Irish Republic should ban the Roman Catholic Church from the country.
We've shut down our Vatican embassy which means that the Irish Government is a hell of a lot further removed from the institutional church than the UK government is.
The finest Taoiseach this country has ever seen, from a 1916 volunteer to a Taoiseach who laid the foundations to a modern independent economy ... how he must turn in his grave at what his Fianna Fail successes did to this country.
Lemass was a visionary. Collins was extraordinary. And they are just two of a cast of remarkable political figures who brought this country so extraordinarly far in less than a century of independence. We shouldn't let the likes of Ahern and Haughey corrupt the entire political memory of the State.
I think he single handedly destroyed the Fianna Fáil party. He introduced the concept of corruption to them and made it fashionable....their total collapse in recent years can be traced back to him.
All power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely - embodied, perfectly, by Haughey.
I agree with most of what you are saying, but corporal punishment did not end in the 60s. I left school in 1979 and it was still endemic in my Christian Brothers secondary school in Crumlin.
It certainly did not. I was hammered with metre sticks, rulers, slippers, books (basically whatever came to hand) by the Sisters of 'Mercy' in the 70s and 80s. Those nuns have more or less died out now, thankfully.
"I, as Taoiseach, on behalf of the State, the Government and our citizens deeply regret and apologise unreservedly to all those women for the hurt that was done to them, and for any stigma they suffered, as a result of the time they spent in a Magdalene Laundry"....
... "What is the value of the tacit and unchallenged decree that saw society humiliate and degrade these girls at women?"...
... "By any standards it was a cruel, pitiless Ireland; distinctly lacking in a quality of mercy"...
.." this is a national shame"..
... "I am confident that this process will enable us to provide speedy, fair and meaningful help to the women in a compassionate and non-adversarial way"...
... "When the dark midnight is over, watch for the breaking of day"..
The Taoiseach almost broke down as he finished his speech. Following the Taoiseach's apology, TDs gave a standing ovation to the Magdelene Laundry survivors who were present in the gallery.
It was a heartfelt apology from the Taoiseach for which these woman should have got long ago, it just shows us how backward and in-looking Ireland was up until the 1990's, it's Ireland's shame for which we will all have to live with.
It was a heartfelt apology from the Taoiseach for which these woman should have got long ago, it just shows us how backward and in-looking Ireland was up until the 1990's, it's Ireland's shame for which we will all have to live with.
Enda Kenny does deserve credit for making this formal apology on behalf of the state which came across as genuine and heartfelt.
Enda Kenny does deserve credit for making this formal apology on behalf of the state which came across as genuine and heartfelt.
I think it was telling that he turned to the gallery where the woman were located before finishing and almost broke down... Obviously meeting the women during the previous few days in Dublin and London affected him greatly and brought it home to him... all of whom he met with seemed genuinely happy coming out after telling their stories and interacting with him.
I hope the report is damning. Just watching the news and reading about this on the internet one thing that strikes me is how recent it is and the fact there may well be people on here who have relatives (they themselves) affected by this.
This is not new news.
The Magdalene nuns were well known for their unchristianly ways.
How it can be damning is anybodies guess.
They did it and got away with it for many years.
This is not new news.
The Magdalene nuns were well known for their unchristianly ways.
How it can be damning is anybodies guess.
They did it and got away with it for many years.
Yes flower.
I remember my family being catholic church orientated.
Now i dont do it and i encourage my children not to follow any religion.
I encourage my kids to enjoy fellow human beings....not religions.
Religion is a sickness that humans can do without.
Yes flower.
I remember my family being catholic church orientated.
Now i dont do it and i encourage my children not to follow any religion.
I encourage my kids to enjoy fellow human beings....not religions.
Religion is a sickness that humans can do without.
The same sort of thing happened in the UK too. Back in the 90's I did some training in mental health and there were lots of long term inpatients at large mental hospitals who had been there since the 50's for no other reason than they might have had a child out of wedlock or were considered fallen women.
Comments
I believed at the time that he was a crook, but people still voted for them. Not me, have never voted FF.
Ah I see , you were not even alive yet you condemm us all on hearsay and the experience of your family
I lived through the times and I object to you condemming all the Irish as many of us knew nothing at all about the issues in those laundries
I lived in Dublin, maybe it was different but I know my own family and those around me had no qualms about speaking up about wrong doing by priests and teachers and Christian Brothers .I know my own mother in the 50;s spoke up about physical abuse in orphanges run by nuns .She spoke up about it in Dublin and I know of a group of women who made sure the nuns knew they were on to them and were willing to report them
I know of others who shouted out for the rights of children and who complained loudly at wrong doing .I know of a committee in one school formed by parents to stop Christian Brothers using physical abuse . Corporol punishment was stopped in schools in the 60,s by parents puting pressure on TD.s .Not all were willing to go along with it like your family and neighbours
Your generation is not the first one to be appalled at abuse you know , we were not all stupid before you
I nursed in the 70's and we knew right from wrong and we reported wrong and we made sure we were heard .One priest was rumbled and reported by nurses willing to put their jobs on the line to save kids being abused .That was 1973 , we were not all to blame .
So dont you dare pontificate to me how I should be ashamed ,I know I did no wrong and I know who was to blame .,
So please dont tar us all with the same brush as you need to have facts and know what was going on in Ireland and not just in the community known to your parents and you neighbours .
I am not not to blame that nobody in the girls community listened , I wasnt there ,. I didnt hear her cry out .
If people did turn their back to her then they know who they are .They are to blame ,not the whole country .
You need to see that it is hurtful to throw blame at those of us who are not to blame .When in fact there were many who were already eyeing up the Church and getting facts and making sure it was reported .
Flinging insults at a whole generation is judgemental and lacks insight IMO .You havent a clue what people were doing in that era to try to stop such crimes against children and women.
By all means condemm the wrong doing , by all means be appallled and by all means call on those who knew to be ashamed .Just dont blame us all without knowing facts .
I agree with most of what you are saying, but corporal punishment did not end in the 60s. I left school in 1979 and it was still endemic in my Christian Brothers secondary school in Crumlin.
Sorry , you are right it was fazed out but only became law later on . I know in our schol it stopped in 1969 .Maybe it was parental pressure on the nuns in those early days . Parent comittees were being set up and they had a voice
All 10 Magdalene Laundries in Ireland were established prior to the foundation of the Irish State. They were founded by Protestant orders and taken over by Catholic orders.
My grandaunt (grandfather's sister) went into one pregnant and came out in a box.
The young Hindu woman is from India - which certainly has its own issues. That investigation is still ongoing and it has nothing to do with this one. There certainly seems to be a lot more to the Savita case than was initially made publicly available. It was an appalling loss but I'm awaiting the report to make judgement. Meanwhile, Ireland still has the second best mortality rate for pregnant women in Europe.
The rest of your post is just quite astonishingly ignorant about Ireland. Everything has changed; thanks to the efforts of Irish women themselves.
My very last word on this matter to you now .What you dont understand is that a society is made up of people, individuals , you and I , babies and children .So blaming society is blaming every single one of them .You simply do not hear me say I am not defending a whole generation , I am defending some of that generation .
Blame the right people and you will make more sense .
Every society was fairly dysfunctional and twisted in its attitudes to children and women if we scratch the surface. What does, for instance, the case of Jimmy Saville tell us about the climate in Britain at about the same time?
Absolutely correct.
This is true, sadly. I've had a conversation with my much-loved parents (both now in their 70s) about this issue and I had to actually walk away, I got so angry with them. EVERYONE knew about these institutions and why they were there and who was in them and who put them in them. There was a tacit societal acceptance. Meanwhile, the men went on drinking and playing hurling with the fathers of the children.
We've shut down our Vatican embassy which means that the Irish Government is a hell of a lot further removed from the institutional church than the UK government is.
Lemass was a visionary. Collins was extraordinary. And they are just two of a cast of remarkable political figures who brought this country so extraordinarly far in less than a century of independence. We shouldn't let the likes of Ahern and Haughey corrupt the entire political memory of the State.
All power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely - embodied, perfectly, by Haughey.
It certainly did not. I was hammered with metre sticks, rulers, slippers, books (basically whatever came to hand) by the Sisters of 'Mercy' in the 70s and 80s. Those nuns have more or less died out now, thankfully.
The Taoiseach is expected to offer a full state apology for the first time to the women who were in the laundries.
... "What is the value of the tacit and unchallenged decree that saw society humiliate and degrade these girls at women?"...
... "By any standards it was a cruel, pitiless Ireland; distinctly lacking in a quality of mercy"...
.." this is a national shame"..
... "I am confident that this process will enable us to provide speedy, fair and meaningful help to the women in a compassionate and non-adversarial way"...
... "When the dark midnight is over, watch for the breaking of day"..
The Taoiseach almost broke down as he finished his speech. Following the Taoiseach's apology, TDs gave a standing ovation to the Magdelene Laundry survivors who were present in the gallery.
Enda Kenny does deserve credit for making this formal apology on behalf of the state which came across as genuine and heartfelt.
This is not new news.
The Magdalene nuns were well known for their unchristianly ways.
How it can be damning is anybodies guess.
They did it and got away with it for many years.
And decent families allowed them to.
Yes flower.
I remember my family being catholic church orientated.
Now i dont do it and i encourage my children not to follow any religion.
I encourage my kids to enjoy fellow human beings....not religions.
Religion is a sickness that humans can do without.
Repeated on Thursday, BBC1 at 11.35pm.
Amen x
Shameful indeed
Aww...best wishes to you flower..XXXXXXXX