Dependent upon Christian belief one could go for the Pre or Post Milleniumist (to include The Rapture and Tribulation of course) or what Jesus said Himself in the Gospel or wait until one has died and then RIP until until Judgement Day. Or, indeed go straight to Heaven. Or, one could examine Catholic belief which I must admit I rather like although.........
I think we will know either collectively or individually... but we will know....as believers of course. Atheists will just die, I think. God would not force anything on anyone they dont want - freewill and all....
Thanks for bailing me out. I didn't quite have an answer.
Umm; I think solipsism is a useful attitude to adopt or 'method' when considering the nature of stuff. I don't see it as very useful as a belief system (even if it is 'true').
So let me try again with your stance; you only believe that minds exist (not matter) but you differ from the classic solipsism in that you think there are many such minds like your own. Is that right?
I thought solipsism was the belief that only your mind exists and that everyone else has no mind and are automatons for want of a better word. Either that or they're figments of your own mind.
No delly, you are conflating your personal disbelief that the Kims are Gods with a belief that this also makes the N. Koreans Atheists.
It does not. To them Kim Jong-il was a God - they deifyed him, they worshipped him, they believed he was supernatural - everything you believe about your God. Additionally, they had exactly the same amount of proof about his abilities as you do about your Gods abilities.
If I deny your God is real it doesn't suddenly make you an atheist.
You may believe they are Heathens for not worshipping your God but likewise it does not make them atheist just because you think their figurehead is a man not a God.
Do you really believe that the whole population of North Korea actually believed that Kim Jong IL - that they actually believed him to be a god and supernatural? :rolleyes:
No of course they didn't/don't. The poor people were forced to worship the Kims - or suffer horrendous consequences. look here:
Pyongyang (AsiaNews) – Religious worship is allowed in North Korea as long as it is the personality cult of Kim Jong-Il and his father, the late Kim Il-Sung.
Followers of traditional religions have obstacles to surmount, especially Buddhists and Christians, such as joining Communist Party-controlled organisations.
Those who do not join are persecuted, often brutally and violently. Anyone engaged in any kind of missionary activity is the recipient of a similar treatment.
Since the end of the Korean War in 1953 about 300,000 Christians have disappeared; any priest or nun who alive then has disappeared, most likely persecuted to death.
About 100,000 are surviving in labour camps with hunger and torture as their main companions and, for some, with death just around the corner. This is corroborated by former North Korean officials and ex prisoners who have said that Christians in the camps are singled out for especially harsh treatment.
In North Korea the population is divided in 51 state-sanctioned social and occupational groups. Positions at the bottom of this hierarchy are reserved for unregistered practicing believers. For them, educational and job opportunities are few and far in between; so are food vouchers. However, they do receive plenty of cruel and hurtful care.
One would not know this from what the North Korean government says. Adamant to prove that religious freedom exists in the country, North Korean authorities are quick to point out that religious freedom is guaranteed in the country's constitution.
According to official figures, there are an estimated 10,000 Buddhists, 10,000 Protestants and 4,000 Catholics registered with officially sanctioned religious organisations. In Pyongyang itself there are three churches: two Protestant and one Catholic.
However, according to Aid To The Church In Need' 2004 Report on religious freedom, worship in such churches is less than traditional. 'Dear Leader' worship seems to be the main staple in the Protestant churches and in the capital's one Catholic church religious practice involves a once-a-week collective prayer but with no priest.
These days emigration is very popular among the hungry and those seeking greater religious freedom. They are however taking their chances since the death penalty and forced labour camps await them if they are ever caught.
And their chances have recently gotten worse when China and North Korea signed an agreement that requires Pyongyang's northern neighbour to repatriate North Korean 'illegal immigrants' found on its territory.
As for the few thousand who are supposedly allowed the religious freedom to worship such world religions as Christianity and Buddhism - out of a total of 25 million population - it is the 'Dear Leader' that they are forced to worship. If not they are horrendously persecuted, killed and are the disappeared. See above quote - the one Catholic Church service per week doesn't even have a priest present.
North Korea is an atheist state. It is also Communist. Atheism and Communism go together like a horse and carriage. Atheism has done much evil in the world; and some atheists on here really need to get real and acknowledge this.
Atheist states such as North Korea, The USSR etc. have committed some of the world's worst attrocities - and those atheist states that are left are still doing so to this day!
And as for you comparing KimJong IL with God... well, that is appalling. And blasphemous. But blasphemy seems to be a popular pastime on here with some.
Yes it's from logos which in a broader sense is about logical (masculine) thought; as opposed to sophos which in a broader sense is about wisdom (feminine - not mentioned anywhere around the quote) in a sense that is not the same but complementary to the logos one.
The difficulty I have with it is that it implies some kind of pre-existing knowledge or reason - which God then became? As if "logos" exists before anything else. I believe reasoning (and fairness, empathy, love etc.) are products of advanced life forms like us. There is no external source of knowledge, or anything else. Just us and "that lucky old sun".
While reading the thread I wondered why God needed to do the living Jesus trick to achieve his ends, when He was previously quite capable of walking around the garden of Adam's corruption. Was it because He would not want to be seen as Himself - by those with knowledge of good and evil? Why else?
Could explain His total absence (more convincingly than that He prefers believers who've had no proof) these terrible days too. Quite likes a bit of terror does he?
Maybe there's a rhyme in it... There could not have been much room, when The Word was in the womb of an innocent child. God went wild? :eek:
Part of becoming an atheist, for me anyway, is learning to accept the finality of death as part and parcel of life. That seems straightforward for me at the moment when (hopefully) death is still a far off event. I'm not sure how easy it will be to maintain that when it's looming, but I'll have had a good few years preparing for the prospect.
I do wonder how much of what moves people towards religion is connected to a fear or denial of mortality. I know it's not the only driving force, but I do think it is a major one.
I bet no one knows that the word 'death' occurs 456 times in the Bible; that is two less times than 'wherefore' and four more than 'priests'.
What, like in verses such as these:
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"John 11. 25-26
They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.Revelation 12. 11
It just occurred to me. If religion is a con for those scared of dying, how come none of the atheists on here are scared of death? Sounds a bit like selling freezers to eskimos.
North Korea is listed as a secular state on Wiki and Kim Jong-il is not a state god though some misguided folk may think him god-like.
Interestingly the UK a beacon of light for many desperate people of the world is considered ambiguous. Apologies for being late.
No. Kim Jong IL thinks he is a god. The population are forced to believe in it... or else.
North Korea is not a secular state either because 'secularism' (in its truest sense) is neutral regarding religious worship: neither for nor against.
I'd love to get behind that mans brain. I want to think that he genuinley believes what he is saying or if he's conning people out of money with a charade?
The bible tells us of course that Jesus will come again on the day of Judgement.
I'd love to get behind that mans brain. I want to think that he genuinley believes what he is saying or if he's conning people out of money with a charade?
The bible tells us of course that Jesus will come again on the day of Judgement.
I thought solipsism was the belief that only your mind exists and that everyone else has no mind and are automatons for want of a better word. Either that or they're figments of your own mind.
Yes; I had the BIB type 'in mind' among other versions like methodological solipsism.
Do you mean like a non literal intrapsychic description?
I mean like a selection of stories and folk tales from w wide variety of sources, many unknown, carefully chosen from the many available to form a patchwork quilt of a narrative, with enough tales of miracles to keep the masses interested. Some of the stories may be based in fact, some of them may be sprinkled with a bit of artistic licence, some of them may have been chosen to go into the final edit because they suit a purpose rather than them being the most likely to be accurate.
Combine that with the edits and different translations over the centuries and you have to ask why some of us find it difficult to accept biblical claims verbatum?
Too many possibilities, ifs and maybes for the skeptically minded to accept unquestioningly.
Umm; I think solipsism is a useful attitude to adopt or 'method' when considering the nature of stuff. I don't see it as very useful as a belief system (even if it is 'true').
So let me try again with your stance; you only believe that minds exist (not matter) but you differ from the classic solipsism in that you think there are many such minds like your own. Is that right?
Without the human and organic connations inherent in the use of the word "mind", yes
My stance is that, in reality, only mind has ever existed. This without the connotations associated with my use of the word "mind" inherent in a human centric, biological, brain centric world-view. Solipsism doesn't even come into it because the word "alone" ultimately becomes meaningless.
I would never say that biblical events happened exactly as described because there is literalism and then there is allegory. There is Judaism and then there is Christianity. My faith didnt come from a critical analysis of the bible. It came from a very long journey and finding my truth within the Gospel. I am not an evangelist, so I would never try and convince you.
That doesn't stop me being interested in why you have your faith though. What you have described regarding a religious experience sounds to me like a psychological episode - you've not really been able to explain what differentiates one from the other, other than to say you just know.
Everything we experience is a psychological episode of some sort, I'm not sure how you can tell if some external source is behind it if there is no external indicator telling you so. When the thread diverted onto the discussion of drug-induced experiences, the point of that was to illustrate that the brain is very capable of producing such effects. Yes, in those cases, chemicals were used to exacerbate certain feelings, but there are other ways of inducing such experiences.
How do you know that you are experiencing something different to what other people experience who do not attribute it to a religious source? That was really the point I was trying to make when I said to you "Perhaps we do understand, it's just that you don't accept our interpretation or explanation of what it is you are experiencing."
No. Kim Jong IL thinks he is a god. The population are forced to believe in it... or else.
North Korea is not a secular state either because 'secularism' (in its truest sense) is neutral regarding religious worship: neither for nor against.
I guess the deciding factor state-wise is their constitution - written or unwritten. Wiki has NK pegged as secular and I've no knowledge of them being forced to believe in his literal divinity. On the other hand it's a secretive place so I'll pass.
I mean like a selection of stories and folk tales from w wide variety of sources, many unknown, carefully chosen from the many available to form a patchwork quilt of a narrative, with enough tales of miracles to keep the masses interested. Some of the stories may be based in fact, some of them may be sprinkled with a bit of artistic licence, some of them may have been chosen to go into the final edit because they suit a purpose rather than them being the most likely to be accurate.
Combine that with the edits and different translations over the centuries and you have to ask why some of us find it difficult to accept biblical claims verbatum?
Too many possibilities, ifs and maybes for the skeptically minded to accept unquestioningly.
It's a fair view.
Edit: Overall and ignoring that I don't believe all Christians (past or present) have taken a literal view of the Adam and Eve narrative. Gnostic Christians for example.
It's not necessarily a case of not wanting, it's just not being convinced that the events of the Bible happened exactly as described.
[/QUOTE=delly] I would never say that biblical events happened exactly as described because there is literalism and then there is allegory. There is Judaism and then there is Christianity. My faith didnt come from a critical analysis of the bible. It came from a very long journey and finding my truth within the Gospel. I am not an evangelist, so I would never try and convince you.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't stop me being interested in why you have your faith though. What you have described regarding a religious experience sounds to me like a psychological episode - you've not really been able to explain what differentiates one from the other, other than to say you just know.
Everything we experience is a psychological episode of some sort, I'm not sure how you can tell if some external source is behind it if there is no external indicator telling you so. When the thread diverted onto the discussion of drug-induced experiences, the point of that was to illustrate that the brain is very capable of producing such effects. Yes, in those cases, chemicals were used to exacerbate certain feelings, but there are other ways of inducing such experiences.
How do you know that you are experiencing something different to what other people experience who do not attribute it to a religious source? That was really the point I was trying to make when I said to you "Perhaps we do understand, it's just that you don't accept our interpretation or explanation of what it is you are experiencing."
I have absolutely no idea how you arrived at the above mentioned conclusions from your intial post, or, indeed, my reply.
Edit: Overall and ignoring that I don't believe all Christians (past or present) have taken a literal view of the Adam and Eve narrative. Gnostic Christians for example.
Gnostics are not regarded as Christians.
Common Worship[27]
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen
Anyone who does not believe in these basic tenents of faith is not regarded as Christian.
I am speaking in an historical or card carrying sense of course.
Without the human and organic connations inherent in the use of the word "mind", yes
My stance is that, in reality, only mind has ever existed. This without the connotations associated with my use of the word "mind" inherent in a human centric, biological, brain centric world-view. Solipsism doesn't even come into it because the word "alone" ultimately becomes meaningless.
Ok. Do you have any view on questions such as; if our minds created everything (or the sensation of everything) then why would they (or us) contrive to place us in 'bodies' (or illusions of bodies) that can give such pain to 'us'?
Comments
Thanks for bailing me out. I didn't quite have an answer.
Well I dont quite have an answer either
Jehovahs witness
I thought solipsism was the belief that only your mind exists and that everyone else has no mind and are automatons for want of a better word. Either that or they're figments of your own mind.
I have never heard them called that before.
It's an insult to call them Jehovahs witnesses when they aren't Jehovahs witnesses
Do you really believe that the whole population of North Korea actually believed that Kim Jong IL - that they actually believed him to be a god and supernatural? :rolleyes:
No of course they didn't/don't. The poor people were forced to worship the Kims - or suffer horrendous consequences. look here:
Pyongyang (AsiaNews) – Religious worship is allowed in North Korea as long as it is the personality cult of Kim Jong-Il and his father, the late Kim Il-Sung.
Followers of traditional religions have obstacles to surmount, especially Buddhists and Christians, such as joining Communist Party-controlled organisations.
Those who do not join are persecuted, often brutally and violently. Anyone engaged in any kind of missionary activity is the recipient of a similar treatment.
Since the end of the Korean War in 1953 about 300,000 Christians have disappeared; any priest or nun who alive then has disappeared, most likely persecuted to death.
About 100,000 are surviving in labour camps with hunger and torture as their main companions and, for some, with death just around the corner. This is corroborated by former North Korean officials and ex prisoners who have said that Christians in the camps are singled out for especially harsh treatment.
In North Korea the population is divided in 51 state-sanctioned social and occupational groups. Positions at the bottom of this hierarchy are reserved for unregistered practicing believers. For them, educational and job opportunities are few and far in between; so are food vouchers. However, they do receive plenty of cruel and hurtful care.
One would not know this from what the North Korean government says. Adamant to prove that religious freedom exists in the country, North Korean authorities are quick to point out that religious freedom is guaranteed in the country's constitution.
According to official figures, there are an estimated 10,000 Buddhists, 10,000 Protestants and 4,000 Catholics registered with officially sanctioned religious organisations. In Pyongyang itself there are three churches: two Protestant and one Catholic.
However, according to Aid To The Church In Need' 2004 Report on religious freedom, worship in such churches is less than traditional. 'Dear Leader' worship seems to be the main staple in the Protestant churches and in the capital's one Catholic church religious practice involves a once-a-week collective prayer but with no priest.
These days emigration is very popular among the hungry and those seeking greater religious freedom. They are however taking their chances since the death penalty and forced labour camps await them if they are ever caught.
And their chances have recently gotten worse when China and North Korea signed an agreement that requires Pyongyang's northern neighbour to repatriate North Korean 'illegal immigrants' found on its territory.
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?art=2585&l=en
As for the few thousand who are supposedly allowed the religious freedom to worship such world religions as Christianity and Buddhism - out of a total of 25 million population - it is the 'Dear Leader' that they are forced to worship. If not they are horrendously persecuted, killed and are the disappeared. See above quote - the one Catholic Church service per week doesn't even have a priest present.
North Korea is an atheist state. It is also Communist. Atheism and Communism go together like a horse and carriage. Atheism has done much evil in the world; and some atheists on here really need to get real and acknowledge this.
Atheist states such as North Korea, The USSR etc. have committed some of the world's worst attrocities - and those atheist states that are left are still doing so to this day!
And as for you comparing KimJong IL with God... well, that is appalling. And blasphemous. But blasphemy seems to be a popular pastime on here with some.
While reading the thread I wondered why God needed to do the living Jesus trick to achieve his ends, when He was previously quite capable of walking around the garden of Adam's corruption. Was it because He would not want to be seen as Himself - by those with knowledge of good and evil? Why else?
Could explain His total absence (more convincingly than that He prefers believers who've had no proof) these terrible days too. Quite likes a bit of terror does he?
Maybe there's a rhyme in it... There could not have been much room, when The Word was in the womb of an innocent child. God went wild? :eek:
No. Not for me it hasn't.
What, like in verses such as these:
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" John 11. 25-26
They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death. Revelation 12. 11
It isn't. That's just the atheist version.
No. Kim Jong IL thinks he is a god. The population are forced to believe in it... or else.
North Korea is not a secular state either because 'secularism' (in its truest sense) is neutral regarding religious worship: neither for nor against.
I've never heard of him before.
We will all know.
Yes; I had the BIB type 'in mind'
I mean like a selection of stories and folk tales from w wide variety of sources, many unknown, carefully chosen from the many available to form a patchwork quilt of a narrative, with enough tales of miracles to keep the masses interested. Some of the stories may be based in fact, some of them may be sprinkled with a bit of artistic licence, some of them may have been chosen to go into the final edit because they suit a purpose rather than them being the most likely to be accurate.
Combine that with the edits and different translations over the centuries and you have to ask why some of us find it difficult to accept biblical claims verbatum?
Too many possibilities, ifs and maybes for the skeptically minded to accept unquestioningly.
Without the human and organic connations inherent in the use of the word "mind", yes
My stance is that, in reality, only mind has ever existed. This without the connotations associated with my use of the word "mind" inherent in a human centric, biological, brain centric world-view. Solipsism doesn't even come into it because the word "alone" ultimately becomes meaningless.
That doesn't stop me being interested in why you have your faith though. What you have described regarding a religious experience sounds to me like a psychological episode - you've not really been able to explain what differentiates one from the other, other than to say you just know.
Everything we experience is a psychological episode of some sort, I'm not sure how you can tell if some external source is behind it if there is no external indicator telling you so. When the thread diverted onto the discussion of drug-induced experiences, the point of that was to illustrate that the brain is very capable of producing such effects. Yes, in those cases, chemicals were used to exacerbate certain feelings, but there are other ways of inducing such experiences.
How do you know that you are experiencing something different to what other people experience who do not attribute it to a religious source? That was really the point I was trying to make when I said to you "Perhaps we do understand, it's just that you don't accept our interpretation or explanation of what it is you are experiencing."
I guess the deciding factor state-wise is their constitution - written or unwritten. Wiki has NK pegged as secular and I've no knowledge of them being forced to believe in his literal divinity. On the other hand it's a secretive place so I'll pass.
I agree with that; as a proponent of the tolerant secular State I would certainly not want N.Korea seen as an example of secularism.
It's a fair view.
Edit: Overall and ignoring that I don't believe all Christians (past or present) have taken a literal view of the Adam and Eve narrative. Gnostic Christians for example.
[/QUOTE=delly] I would never say that biblical events happened exactly as described because there is literalism and then there is allegory. There is Judaism and then there is Christianity. My faith didnt come from a critical analysis of the bible. It came from a very long journey and finding my truth within the Gospel. I am not an evangelist, so I would never try and convince you.[/QUOTE]
I have absolutely no idea how you arrived at the above mentioned conclusions from your intial post, or, indeed, my reply.
Gnostics are not regarded as Christians.
Common Worship[27]
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen
Anyone who does not believe in these basic tenents of faith is not regarded as Christian.
I am speaking in an historical or card carrying sense of course.
Ok. Do you have any view on questions such as; if our minds created everything (or the sensation of everything) then why would they (or us) contrive to place us in 'bodies' (or illusions of bodies) that can give such pain to 'us'?