Traffic light junctions -grrr!
chasing_stars
Posts: 434 Forum Member
✭
I came up to a set of traffic lights today and needed to turn right but as the lights also showed green for the opposite side of road, I was stuck til the row on the other side cleared. Problem was, I didn't get to go til the light went amber and they all stopped. So I hesitated and went when it showed red as I would have held traffic up on the adjacent cross roads. Trouble is was I right to do so?! Scared im in for a letter for red light violation.
Sets of traffic lights like this really get on my nerves. I'm sure if I get a letter I can appeal but it's just the annoying thing about it.
Sets of traffic lights like this really get on my nerves. I'm sure if I get a letter I can appeal but it's just the annoying thing about it.
0
Comments
This....
If you crossed the white line across the lane at the lights on red then you are in the wrong. If there was a camera on those lights it might have taken your picture. And if there had been a copper watching you he may well have wanted a word in your ear.
If however you crossed the line on green and waited in the middle of the junction for a gap in the oncoming traffic you are probably OK.
The green light indicates that you may cross the stop line if it's safe to do so.
Not True !!
171
You MUST stop behind the line at a junction with a ‘Stop’ sign and a solid white line across the road. Wait for a safe gap in the traffic before you move off.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 16
172
The approach to a junction may have a ‘Give Way’ sign or a triangle marked on the road. You MUST give way to traffic on the main road when emerging from a junction with broken white lines across the road.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10(1),16(1) & 25
And of course it could also be a Box Junction which also differs.
174
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (download ‘Road markings’ (PDF, 731KB) ). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.
Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)
Note the last sentence, "At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping."
I am not trying to scare the OP as to be truthful I would have done exactly as he has done, but what you do and what you should do are often very different.
However, as has already been said, you crossed the line on green. This happens at junctions a LOT but understandable if you've not been driving long...
171 and 172 don't appear to be appropriate for junctions with traffic lights (no Stop sign nor give way sign). If it is a box junction then you can sit in it while waiting to turn right, as the OP did.
A traffic light controlled junction is not a junction with a stop sign. This refers to static stop signs which mean you must stop at the line regardless.
A traffic light controlled junction is not controlled by a give way sign either.
174
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (download ‘Road markings’ (PDF, 731KB) ). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.
Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)
Note the last sentence, "At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping."
I am not trying to scare the OP as to be truthful I would have done exactly as he has done, but what you do and what you should do are often very different.[/QUOTE]
We're not talking about signalled roundabouts either which are a different thing as well.
The rules in the highway code for traffic light controlled junctions are #175:
You MUST stop behind the white ‘Stop’ line across your side of the road unless the light is green. If the amber light appears you may go on only if you have already crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to stop might cause a collision.
#176: You MUST NOT move forward over the white line when the red light is showing. Only go forward when the traffic lights are green if there is room for you to clear the junction safely or you are taking up a position to turn right. If the traffic lights are not working, treat the situation as you would an unmarked junction and proceed with great care.
So, basically, don't cross the stop line on red. You CAN cross it on green to either complete the maneuver or take up a position to turn right. Once you are past the stop line you are no longer bound (within reason, of course) by the lights and can proceed when it is safe. If you don't, you'll just be stranded in the middle of the junction and will block traffic in the other direction.
Look again, as I said the last sentence "At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping."
So you cannot sit in it as the OP did because it was signalled, but that is only assuming the junction is also a Box Junction.
We're not talking about signalled roundabouts either which are a different thing as well.
The rules in the highway code for traffic light controlled junctions are #175:
You MUST stop behind the white ‘Stop’ line across your side of the road unless the light is green. If the amber light appears you may go on only if you have already crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to stop might cause a collision.
#176: You MUST NOT move forward over the white line when the red light is showing. Only go forward when the traffic lights are green if there is room for you to clear the junction safely or you are taking up a position to turn right. If the traffic lights are not working, treat the situation as you would an unmarked junction and proceed with great care.
So, basically, don't cross the stop line on red. You CAN cross it on green to either complete the maneuver or take up a position to turn right. Once you are past the stop line you are no longer bound (within reason, of course) by the lights and can proceed when it is safe. If you don't, you'll just be stranded in the middle of the junction and will block traffic in the other direction.[/QUOTE]
The Painted Lines on the road are also considered as Signs, so the Solid White Line or the Dotted White Line at Traffic Lights are Stop or Give Way Signs.
Read the rules again.
You may enter a box junction to turn right and stop in the box if the only thing preventing you completing the manoeuvre is traffic from the opposite direction.
The OP was waiting to turn right. So even if it was a box junction no rule was broken unless the right turn exit was blocked.
They are stop lines controlled by a traffic light and are covered by rules 175/176. They are not the same as stop lines with one of these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stop_sign(standard).svg
...which is what the rule you posted applied to, and mean you have to stop at the line regardless.
You only have to stop at traffic lights if they are red. If you stop at traffic lights which are green because you think it's a stop sign you are doing it wrong.
It's pretty simple really, a red light means stop at the stop line. A green light means you are free to proceed across the line, assuming there are no other considerations such as a hatched box junction which you should obviously not enter if your exit is blocked.
Once you have crossed the line on green you are no longer bound by the traffic lights, and you just follow the usual rules of the road when it comes to turning across a lane of oncoming traffic, so it's perfectly legal to go past a green light and wait for a red light to stop oncoming traffic before making your turn.
It's important to know how to drive safely, however as we can see from the posts above the highway code is not always straightforward. I myself can think about various driving situations for a long time and review all the relevant laws and information and still not be clear what it is exactly you're supposed to do.
Thanks folks. I'm sure I was over the line. Been driving a while but these junctions annoy me for those reasons I gave. You're scared to go incase you're wrong but don't want to hold folk up either. I just think it's silly to have lights on junctions like that when you need to turn in a certain direction but can't due to oncoming traffic. Things are too unclear there. Maybe it's just me tho.
The lights are there to control traffic safely. Sometimes you get a RH filter lane that stays green for a while after the main through route has gone red, to ease the problem you describe, but only where space allows it.
One thing that annoys me is traffic lights bring added to roundabouts, thus ruining the flow of traffic. The link below though, shows a real stunner. I would safely bet a lot of money that the designer of that has never driven a car.
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&tab=wl
It sounds like you did exactly what you were suppose to at that situation.
If it's a junction with no feeder lane/light (ie, a separate lane and traffic light for turning right) then you can go into the middle of the road as long as the light is green when you cross the stop line. It doesn't matter if the light then turns red, you can still turn as otherwise you'd block traffic. You did exactly that so it's fine.
Link broken, just takes me to a map of the UK
And assuming it is a roundabout. Which, given the OP says he was waiting in the junction to turn right, seems rather unlikely.
So this;
sums it up.
Good lord. when did you learn to drive.
MonsterMunch99 is correct flagpole?
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=banbury&aq=&sll=52.8382,-2.327815&sspn=7.701807,19.248047&vpsrc=6&t=h&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Banbury,+Oxfordshire,+United+Kingdom&ll=52.061767,-1.33081&spn=0.000478,0.001175&z=20&layer=c&cbll=52.061785,-1.330844&panoid=VOIdtSyqwZX0Fm_wt-HeNw&cbp=12,273.31,,1,3.55
They have a very long cycle time. A couple of minutes at least. Then if (like me) you're turning right you have to contend with oncoming traffic which might be going to your left, straight at you or to the right where you're going.
A pain in the bum. Going to change soon though when the new railway car park opens. As a rail user I applaud the facility but I'm agog wondering what that's going to do to the area.
MM is right though. I'm assuming you are one of those irritating people who don't advance to the correct position when turning right across traffic lights and makes everyone else wait an extra light sequence or two completely unnecessarily?
Interesting assumption. Given your powers in this area, what do you assume is my level of interest in your conjecture?
Ah, well it's in there somewhere.