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Could TV channels broadcast their programme running order?
Richardcoulter
Posts: 30,369 Forum Member
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If this was possible, perhaps it could be used to automatically correct any dynamic EPG's and negate the need for PVR's to need padding. Recordings would start at exactly the beginning and finish right at the end.
Didn't some video recorders use information from Teletext to record programmes??
I believe that the BBC still use the old Teletext system to let the nations and regions know the real time running order of their programmes.
This was just a thought that occurred to me, but those with far more knowledge than me may know why this system hasn't or cannot be adopted.
Thanks
Didn't some video recorders use information from Teletext to record programmes??
I believe that the BBC still use the old Teletext system to let the nations and regions know the real time running order of their programmes.
This was just a thought that occurred to me, but those with far more knowledge than me may know why this system hasn't or cannot be adopted.
Thanks
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Guess it's possible, but the recording padding means that adverts get recorded and those who don't fast forward through would see them, so making it start and stop perfectly on time wouldn't be ideal for the broadcasters
How on earth can they not have the technology in this day and age to record programs when they are actually on.
It does exist, it's called a Dynamic EPG and it's on every platform (box dependant for FS & FV) except Virgin Media.
Most EPG providers - and certainly Freeview and Freesat ( ATOS) and Sky
allow (at a cost) the broadcaster to update this in real time
and also to update their "more than future" rest of the schedule.
(but Virgin does not!)
But it is only reactive channels which do not know that the start time of their programmes at the start of the day ....
But some EPG system increment their P/F information on billed time rather than the scheduled start time.....
and the Broadcaster just wants the programme to be recorded - so there is no padding .
(or they do not want to be concerned about providing a good viewing environment for the time shifted viewer)
Because of this most play out systems ( and the one that Red Bee used are no exception) do not provide DVB SI information ...
Like BBC B did for the Teletext PDC
Red Bee have a system which looks at the current schedule file and applies some rules to it and then generates the P/F information.
They also have another one which shuffles the billed time of delayed or dropped programmes for the EPG......
and one which provide Presfax for the information that geos to the Nations and regions.
(one is tempted to say the Power of XML!)
The BBC at the start of PDC defined what it thought a programme was as a default -
Viz the Network symbol before - this allows the Health warning to be recorded,
The programme
and the item after the Programme - this allows the "If you are affected by this programme "
but also to say that Red Bee does not turn the PDC code off, make F the P in DVB until after the end of the programme - as everyone gets a bit annoyed if they loose the end.
SO it can be done
IF you have people both presentation and technical who understand what is required
and can interface to the scheduling and playout systems ( which costs money)
And then to the EPG/SI provider (which costs money)
And the broadcaster wants to do it!
The BBC about 20 years ago got this all sorted out and specify this for all its Channels played out by Red Bee and the BBC one and Two Nations.....
One regulatory action which would make "EPG clock work recording" a lot better would be to change COSTA to a 60 minute Window not clock hours.
If you assume that the EPG in the home is a database which is updated from a Central point WITH NO FEED Back - there can be some situtaion which occur when you are overwriting data - particularly as the CRID must stay the same - and some EPG systems tend to hold onto the CRID and the original billed time....
and then you have the issue of saying "this programme has changed channel"
PDC Had the ways of doing this - But DVB SI is less flexible -
but both of the methods require the STB to be receiving EPG data when the swap is announced (even if it is carouselled until the programme starts).
Most EPGs are not looking for schedule change- relying more on only P/F
.... and tend not to look for the CRID being transmitted (in theory on any channel!)
After all you want to record "the programme" NOT "the programme on BBC X"
On the whole BDS/ Red Bee get the updates right and propagated - but each plaforms EPG (And even STB) are different on how it can be handled....
Particularly if a reschelude occurs before the last change has been got out to the STB.....
And Channel swapping is not easy!!!
On The whole EPG for recoding control rely on clock time at some point rather than just reading the data they are being sent - which is how they should work!
But as I said Channel swapping is very very rare and reactive channel are just rare - with about twice the number of BBC 1 variants in the Sky EPG.(ie., about another 20 mostly BBC)
Yes, I have been told by a member of VM staff from the technical side that changing the EPG data on the TiVo would cause problems as it would somehow affect the way that it looks for subsequent transmissions of programmes that it cannot/did not record (or thinks that it did or didn't record)
Thanks to everybody that posted information, I now understand what's involved a little more
Would you like me to repeat all that for you again or have you got it now?
Because that is all that happens for the vast majority of programmes
It also works off clock time because that is how most channels work and the programme carries padding in the form of adverts .
And there was no accurate recording on VHS machines which were not that popular.
And its inventors had never seen programme listings carried by all channels/broadcasters
... So they set up a EPG service that works alongside the channels
The idea of having the most popular channel having only 2 mins intersticials per hour and being flexible when it comes to major events ....
And it having a complimentary channel it shares with ...
... .. Are things that no one thought about.
Although having a bidirectional link to the stb does mean that the EPG can be controlled far easier than the through the air unidirectional broadcast one,
Did TiVo use the EPG system when we only had four or five channels, or something else?
I'm not sure either, as i've never heard of the 'Accurate Recording System'!
What is it and is it platform specific?
Cheers.
And thus is applies to any platform which has DVB SI .
Sorry Carl but that's an absolutely rubbish excuse. Enhanced EPG and dynamic EPG are not exclusive. A decent system would use enhanced data but be prepared to overwrite it with dynamic data if and when required. Programme substitutions may not have cast details but at least basic metadata such as event name and duration would be correct.
TiVo/Virgin have chosen not to design their system in their way. Judging by the post from pete137 that's pretty frustrating for end users.
So is this essentially the same as my suggestion
Ahhh right, I thought that the original TiVo was introduced in the analogue era and before multichannel television. I did wonder if it was worth the cost for only 4/5 channels!!
What happened to those who took out lifetime subscriptions who can now only use the service via Virgin Media (and presumably pay the TiVo fee in one way or another?)
Tivo closed down that service several years ago, and no longer provide the programme data to old Tivo users. Another service was set up as an alternative but nothing to do with Tivo
Doesn't seem right that a "lifetime" service ceased!
The reason VM's system doesn't have a dynamic EPG, even VM's TiVo runs a very old out dated way of being manually updated. Sky have a dynamic EPG which can and is updated automatically with any programme changes.
My point is that VM's Tivo is virtually the same as the US one and, whilst I don't know specifics (which you seem to; hence my question) I would think it's as up-to-date as it could possibly be.
Actually, as I understand it, each broadcaster is responsible for their own EPG entries. Sky (the company) has nothing to do with it.
There are very few dynamic channels in the world and many channels have their programming padded by advertising etc so if the EPG works on clock time you still get the programme ..... So why build an EPG to cope with a few channels ...
Here in the uk /Europe we had PDC on our few analogue transmissions and an expectation that BBC one two and itv at least would reschedule on the fly for sports .
Re sky
The channels are responsible for their EPG entries as they are in Freesat Freeview
. But there is a different system for a dynamic EPG update than a clock work channel down loading once a day .