If having hair on your chin defined you as a man then there are many, many women who would in fact qualify as a man. Frankly almost every woman whould turn into a man in their old age.
If having no breasts qualified you as a man then there are many flat chested women who would not legally be women (then again if having breasts made you a woman there are many men who would be reassigned).
If having a deep voice made you a man then that's Eartha Kitt for one.
None of these physcial characteristics can be used to define sex.
Nor can what you refer to yourself as. I can spend fifty years informing people I am a Blue Whale...but I am not.
At the end of the day what makes you male or female must be the reproductive organs as it's the only thing that can't cross the sexes (aside from in certain extreemely rare medical cases). It's teh only cast iron difference and therefore the only genetic tag that means anything.
So whatever she calls herself, and whatever she feels like (or has ever felt like), she is a female.
You can live in France, call yourself Pierre, speak French, eat French food, not use deoderant and pee in a hole in the street but if you were born Peter in Tunbridge Wells you were born British and you are British. Even if you apply for and become a French national then whatever the paperwork says you were born British.
So yes, it's a woman getting pregnant...not a man. So why all the fuss? This is, in fact, rather common.
I was simply trying to gauge poster's understanding of being transsexual. That's all. And what yo usay makes totalyl sense. Perhaps not the blue whale bit, afterall men and women share common things that blue whale's never will.
Despite the fact that his biology is a woman's can I ask how many people in this thread actually understand what being a transsexual is? There seems to be some very typical attitudes towards gender issues in this thread.
People seem to think your gender is purely determined by your physical form. But its a bit more than that. It's not just a matter of changing your body to look like the opposite sex, the fact is the person has always identified and considered themself to be the opposite sex.
People don't just decide to have a sex change, it takes a long time to determine if they are indeed transgendered. Part of this is determining if the individual's physical brain, thought patterns etc coincide with their physical gender. If they emotionally identify with being the opposite sex then that goes some way to determining if they are right for gender reassignment.
I'm not denying that internally he has female organs. But surely what really makes you one sex or the other is how you consider yourself. Given he identifies with being male, lives as a male, he should be recognised and accepted as male. I think the documentary was misleading.
I wasn't going to get involved, didn't watch (or have any desire to watch) for all the reasons already stated but that logic seems very flawed.
What you seem to be saying is that if someone someone thinks of themselves and aligns themselves with the opposite gender we should accept that they really are in some way and provide surgery and drugs to make them fit better. By that logic someone who thinks they are a dog, aligns themselves with dogs and can't face being human should be provided with surgery to make them look more like a dog!
In fact there is a clear problem in both cases, in one we provide couselling, therapy etc and in the other we say 'what the heck' and do the surgery. Seems a bit inconsistant, that's all.
I wasn't going to get involved, didn't watch (or have any desire to watch) for all the reasons already stated but that logic seems very flawed.
What you seem to be saying is that if someone someone thinks of themselves and aligns themselves with the opposite gender we should accept that they really are in some way and provide surgery and drugs to make them fit better. By that logic someone who thinks they are a dog, aligns themselves with dogs and can't face being human should be provided with surgery to make them look more like a dog!
In fact there is a clear problem in both cases, in one we provide couselling, therapy etc and in the other we say 'what the heck' and do the surgery. Seems a bit inconsistant, that's all.
Sorry but that is in no way the same thing. All human beings be them male or female share common genes, hormones etc. It is quite conceivable for a healthy sane man to feel that he is actually female.
And as I said in my post, people are not just given surgery. you can't just go 'Oh i think I am a woman so give me a sex change.' It's a very tough psychological process, the counselling provided is there to assess if gender reassignment is required. And it is a requirement for those people, not just a desire. The rejection rate is very high. Many people might think they are transgendered, but are not given surgery. But for those who are indeed transsexual and do have surgery, then yes we should support and accept them.
I think it's very easy for those of us who live happy comfortable lives, who ahve never had to question our identity to right things off.
Sorry but that is in no way the same thing. All human beings be them male or female share common genes, hormones etc. It is quite conceivable for a healthy sane man to feel that he is actually female.
I was exaggerating to make the point, and I think you know that. Males and females are genetically different (if very similar) which is why they have different reproductive organs. I personally have a great problem understanding why people who feel themselves to be the wrong gender are treated differently from those with other mental/psychological conditions but that seems to be a fact of modern life. It seems to me that it is a case of the medical profession giving up on treating the cause of the problem and dealing instead with the symptoms.
Given that is seems even more crazy that this was billed as remotely surprising or interesting.
I was exaggerating to make the point, and I think you know that. Males and females are genetically different (if very similar) which is why they have different reproductive organs. I personally have a great problem understanding why people who feel themselves to be the wrong gender are treated differently from those with other mental/psychological conditions but that seems to be a fact of modern life. It seems to me that it is a case of the medical profession giving up on treating the cause of the problem and dealing instead with the symptoms.
Given that is seems even more crazy that this was billed as remotely surprising or interesting.
Fair enough, but I'm not sure why you need to exaggerate to make the point given my logic doesn;t apply to such and exaggeration.
Different metal illnesses have different treatments I guess. Some can be controlled by drugs, but surely if an individual absolutely wants to live life as the opposite sex it causees no harm to others. As someone with transsexual friends I have seen one go from living as a miserable young man to a thoroughly happy young woman. Surely that is what counts.
I don't think it is insulting, and I 100% support people who require gender reassignment. However, I think you make a very good observation. It seems to go against many of the psychological determinations that are required before changing gender.
So do I, but the point is....that this person seems to want the best of both worlds. They want to be a man, but they want to have a baby...and it's a biological truth that men cannot have babies. I don't think people here are having a pop at gender reassignment...but the points made here were more about consent to go ahead with such an operation/s are usually only given when the patient is totally sure that they're ready to "let go" of their birth gender...Tracy/Thomas in my, and other poster's minds clearly wasn't as he decided to keep all his female reproductive organs intact so he could have children. The other point that's getting to people is that we're being presented with this idea that a miracle has occurred...it hasn't...a woman has given birth to a baby. I couldn't warm to this couple, despite wishing them no ill.
A few years ago I watched a documentary about a patient who had undergone gender reassignment...only to be struck down with an exclusively female condition....Ovarian cancer! I felt extremely sorry for that person.
I watched this and found it surprisingly interesting, though even more of a non-event than how I remember it when the story broke that he still actually had lady bits, and wasnt a man really. Or was he?
I dont know, but I wish them well, though i do think that they were somewhat in it for the money - when they said they were writing a book, I instantly thought cash-in, and I did think that before then!
All I find insulting is that this fake man, was still taking testosterone whilst trying to concieve a baby. Surely that is dangerous to the foetus? Irresponsible, selfish woman. Also, did the sperm donor know what their donation was for? Is that fair on the 'father'?
I admit, the threats from the public weren't nice, but seriously, SHE decided to GO PUBLIC with HER story and HER photo in HER newspaper column...what can she expect? Seriously.
I just feel very sorry for the baby. The psychological trauma this baby will face is unknown, however, at least she will have a sibling to share it with :rolleyes:
I personally have a great problem understanding why people who feel themselves to be the wrong gender are treated differently from those with other mental/psychological conditions
That would be because transsexualism is not a mental/psychological condition; If it were mental or psychological, it could be treated, and perhaps cured, by psychologists or psychiatrists; it can't (it's been tried, and failed, for almost a century).
Although the exact aetiology of transsexualism is unknown, there is considerable medical research that points to it being a congenital neurological condition.
All I find insulting is that this fake man, was still taking testosterone whilst trying to concieve a baby. Surely that is dangerous to the foetus? Irresponsible, selfish woman.
Actually, he wasn't. He stopped taking testosterone two years before his first pregnancy. High levels of testosterone would make it impossible for him to conceive.
I admit, the threats from the public weren't nice, but seriously, SHE decided to GO PUBLIC with HER story and HER photo in HER newspaper column...what can she expect? Seriously.
I'd imagine he realised that the media would be all over the story like vermin, so he decided to enter into an exclusive contract to keep some control over what was published.
I just feel very sorry for the baby. The psychological trauma this baby will face is unknown, however, at least she will have a sibling to share it with :rolleyes:
Why will his children face psychological trauma? they'll grow up in a loving home, with a father and a mother. That's less traumatic than many children's lives nowadays.
she wants people to buy the lie...that she's a he. she's just doing a good impression of a man at best. thats about all you can say. and well..i hope theres no long term damage to the baby from that twisted biology from having taken hormones so long.
a shame...she looked decent as a woman, and freakish as a man.
I didn't see the TV programme in question. But if the programme covered a female to male transsexual who retained his female reproductive organs, then surely he's most accurately described as a hermaphrodite.
That would be because transsexualism is not a mental/psychological condition; If it were mental or psychological, it could be treated, and perhaps cured, by psychologists or psychiatrists; it can't (it's been tried, and failed, for almost a century).
Although the exact aetiology of transsexualism is unknown, there is considerable medical research that points to it being a congenital neurological condition.
Actually, he wasn't. He stopped taking testosterone two years before his first pregnancy. High levels of testosterone would make it impossible for him to conceive.
Of course he did; it was a quick and easy way of making a few dollars.
I'd imagine he realised that the media would be all over the story like vermin, so he decided to enter into an exclusive contract to keep some control over what was published.
Why will his children face psychological trauma? they'll grow up in a loving home, with a father and a mother. That's less traumatic than many children's lives nowadays.
I won't dispute that they are loving parents - but the fact that this is a world famous case will ensure that the children will be the focus of unwanted attention - both from the media and their peers. That's a lot of psychological pressure. We would be very naive to assume that they will not experience any antagonism, bullying and/or resentment in their daily lives.
totally agree... the headlines seriously annoy me.. She's a woman dressed like a man.. with a couple of hormonal changes.. all very silly :cool:
all very physical. He's legally male, hence the justified headline, if a little sensationalist.
We have to hope that, given time, people will eventually catch up and not regard the physical biological sex of a person, the XX or XY, to be the overriding factor in a person's sex identity.
By the looks of things, it'll take a long time.
As for the comment about doctors by a poster above, in my experience, they know as little about the subject as most other people and in some cases are the very worst people to ask.
They are clearly just fame hungry, which I'm fine with if they admit it.
These arguments about what a man is, first its anyone with a penis is a man and they say "Thomas" has a penis, but then they say its not really a penis, but if a man goes to war and loses everything below the waist does that make them not a man? So a man isn't defined by a penis, despite two minutes earlier saying it was??
They seem in it for the shock and the money, and appear to have done well with it.
I wonder if they'll ever get true privacy again? Hope they can raise their daughter healthily though, although the questions she will ask when older could seriously disturb her I think.
They may be fame-hungry but the poor child didn't ask for any of this. Disgraceful behaviour from them IMO.
Comments
I was simply trying to gauge poster's understanding of being transsexual. That's all. And what yo usay makes totalyl sense. Perhaps not the blue whale bit, afterall men and women share common things that blue whale's never will.
I wasn't going to get involved, didn't watch (or have any desire to watch) for all the reasons already stated but that logic seems very flawed.
What you seem to be saying is that if someone someone thinks of themselves and aligns themselves with the opposite gender we should accept that they really are in some way and provide surgery and drugs to make them fit better. By that logic someone who thinks they are a dog, aligns themselves with dogs and can't face being human should be provided with surgery to make them look more like a dog!
In fact there is a clear problem in both cases, in one we provide couselling, therapy etc and in the other we say 'what the heck' and do the surgery. Seems a bit inconsistant, that's all.
Sorry but that is in no way the same thing. All human beings be them male or female share common genes, hormones etc. It is quite conceivable for a healthy sane man to feel that he is actually female.
And as I said in my post, people are not just given surgery. you can't just go 'Oh i think I am a woman so give me a sex change.' It's a very tough psychological process, the counselling provided is there to assess if gender reassignment is required. And it is a requirement for those people, not just a desire. The rejection rate is very high. Many people might think they are transgendered, but are not given surgery. But for those who are indeed transsexual and do have surgery, then yes we should support and accept them.
I think it's very easy for those of us who live happy comfortable lives, who ahve never had to question our identity to right things off.
I was exaggerating to make the point, and I think you know that. Males and females are genetically different (if very similar) which is why they have different reproductive organs. I personally have a great problem understanding why people who feel themselves to be the wrong gender are treated differently from those with other mental/psychological conditions but that seems to be a fact of modern life. It seems to me that it is a case of the medical profession giving up on treating the cause of the problem and dealing instead with the symptoms.
Given that is seems even more crazy that this was billed as remotely surprising or interesting.
Fair enough, but I'm not sure why you need to exaggerate to make the point given my logic doesn;t apply to such and exaggeration.
Different metal illnesses have different treatments I guess. Some can be controlled by drugs, but surely if an individual absolutely wants to live life as the opposite sex it causees no harm to others. As someone with transsexual friends I have seen one go from living as a miserable young man to a thoroughly happy young woman. Surely that is what counts.
best and have a good weekend.
So do I, but the point is....that this person seems to want the best of both worlds. They want to be a man, but they want to have a baby...and it's a biological truth that men cannot have babies. I don't think people here are having a pop at gender reassignment...but the points made here were more about consent to go ahead with such an operation/s are usually only given when the patient is totally sure that they're ready to "let go" of their birth gender...Tracy/Thomas in my, and other poster's minds clearly wasn't as he decided to keep all his female reproductive organs intact so he could have children. The other point that's getting to people is that we're being presented with this idea that a miracle has occurred...it hasn't...a woman has given birth to a baby. I couldn't warm to this couple, despite wishing them no ill.
A few years ago I watched a documentary about a patient who had undergone gender reassignment...only to be struck down with an exclusively female condition....Ovarian cancer! I felt extremely sorry for that person.
I dont know, but I wish them well, though i do think that they were somewhat in it for the money - when they said they were writing a book, I instantly thought cash-in, and I did think that before then!
So what?
All I find insulting is that this fake man, was still taking testosterone whilst trying to concieve a baby. Surely that is dangerous to the foetus? Irresponsible, selfish woman. Also, did the sperm donor know what their donation was for? Is that fair on the 'father'?
I admit, the threats from the public weren't nice, but seriously, SHE decided to GO PUBLIC with HER story and HER photo in HER newspaper column...what can she expect? Seriously.
I just feel very sorry for the baby. The psychological trauma this baby will face is unknown, however, at least she will have a sibling to share it with :rolleyes:
That would be because transsexualism is not a mental/psychological condition; If it were mental or psychological, it could be treated, and perhaps cured, by psychologists or psychiatrists; it can't (it's been tried, and failed, for almost a century).
Although the exact aetiology of transsexualism is unknown, there is considerable medical research that points to it being a congenital neurological condition.
Actually, he wasn't. He stopped taking testosterone two years before his first pregnancy. High levels of testosterone would make it impossible for him to conceive.
Of course he did; it was a quick and easy way of making a few dollars.
I'd imagine he realised that the media would be all over the story like vermin, so he decided to enter into an exclusive contract to keep some control over what was published.
Why will his children face psychological trauma? they'll grow up in a loving home, with a father and a mother. That's less traumatic than many children's lives nowadays.
a shame...she looked decent as a woman, and freakish as a man.
G
It wasn't "spot on". I usually like Harry Hill but he was trivialising a very complex, serious issue and I was insulted by him yesterday.
He was being a tosser about something he didn't understand. Same with his comments about the Horizon documentary on time with Brian Cox.
I disagree. And he was a doctor, remember.
G
totally agree... the headlines seriously annoy me.. She's a woman dressed like a man.. with a couple of hormonal changes.. all very silly :cool:
I won't dispute that they are loving parents - but the fact that this is a world famous case will ensure that the children will be the focus of unwanted attention - both from the media and their peers. That's a lot of psychological pressure. We would be very naive to assume that they will not experience any antagonism, bullying and/or resentment in their daily lives.
all very physical. He's legally male, hence the justified headline, if a little sensationalist.
We have to hope that, given time, people will eventually catch up and not regard the physical biological sex of a person, the XX or XY, to be the overriding factor in a person's sex identity.
By the looks of things, it'll take a long time.
As for the comment about doctors by a poster above, in my experience, they know as little about the subject as most other people and in some cases are the very worst people to ask.
They may be fame-hungry but the poor child didn't ask for any of this. Disgraceful behaviour from them IMO.
So didn't the 'fame-hungry' think of the child?
G
If you were to attend a job interview with a similar lack of knowledge of what the position required, you'd rightly be shown the door.
Trans people know best. Stand back, watch and learn.