So going by that you have to wait until the exit is clear before you enter the junction. The "MUST NOT" in the rule means it's backed up by law.
Which isn't possible in the situation in my earlier post. So you are forced to either break a written law or not move and almost certainly get arrested for the chaos that ensues.
Hi
I think you will find that there is not a legal requirement to monitor the video live. However most will be watched live so that the operator can zoom in on your number plate. I managed to successfully appeal a junction box charge. I've got some details here if you're interested (and you can see the video with the operator panning and zooming the camera).
first post , bumping a 3.5 year old thread to spam the forum , is this a record :D:D:D
7. - (1) Subject to paragraph 9, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043, 1044 and 1044.1 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person where the box junction is at a junction between two or more roads (but not at a gyratory system or roundabout) and the person—
(a) causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn—
(i) by oncoming vehicles; or
(ii) by vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn
So the offence is not stopping within the box, per se, but entering it knowing that you would have to stop within it - which isn't what 174 says.
This is why stills aren't sufficient to monitor box junctions and issue PCNs, because it is a moving traffic offence.
If I ever find myself about to stop in a box junction I drive as slow as possible so I never actually have to stop - has worked on a few occasions - can't really do me if I never physically stop my car
Box junctions can be very difficult if you are behind a lorry or bus and they suddenly stop before you have a chance to clear the box. If everyone waited until the vehicle in front moved to a point a full car length past the box, traffic would literally grind to a total halt.
Which isn't possible in the situation in my earlier post. So you are forced to either break a written law or not move and almost certainly get arrested for the chaos that ensues.
I manage it just fine without there being chaos. The lights are usually timed ahead so when your lights go green again the road ahead will start to clear enabling you to move forward. Never had a problem with waiting at the line.
I manage it just fine without there being chaos. The lights are usually timed ahead so when your lights go green again the road ahead will start to clear enabling you to move forward. Never had a problem with waiting at the line.
Well you obviously don't have the type of traffic problems we have here. There are a number of junctions where traffic is so slow that the exit is NEVER clear between the hours of 4:30-6:30 on a weekday. All that happens is that 2-3 cars move into the box at each turn of the lights.
Box junctions can be very difficult if you are behind a lorry or bus and they suddenly stop before you have a chance to clear the box. If everyone waited until the vehicle in front moved to a point a full car length past the box, traffic would literally grind to a total halt.
Which doesn't matter - if the traffic is moving when you enter the box, then you are not committing an offence even if you subsequently have to stop in the box.
Which doesn't matter - if the traffic is moving when you enter the box, then you are not committing an offence even if you subsequently have to stop in the box.
I feel as though we're going round in circles here. Please see my question in post #25
I can't see where this "traffic moving when you enter the box" business comes from. The TSRGD quote makes it quite clear:
No person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
I've never even heard of the "TSRGD" before but the above is how I've always understood these junctions are to be treated: don't go on unless you'll be able to get off - don't stop on them.
It seems to me that that means you've got to judge it correctly - don't enter unless you feel sure that you'll be able to get out without stopping. This is a different beast, albeit subtly so, to the quoted Highway Code section:
You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.
It's perfectly possible - I probably do it a couple of times a week on my commute - to enter a box with the exit NOT clear, but I can see that with the way lights are changing, etc, I WILL be able to leave it without stopping. I'm always a bit wary of something unforeseen cropping up, but as has been said, this is one of those things were you can easily and unnecessarily miss out on a phase of the lights if you're too timid. At least the junction isn't monitored.
Conversely, there are plenty of times at the junction I'm thnking of where I could set off on to the box, thinking, "This is okay, because the cars in front of me are moving," and yet end up stationary on the junction. But I don't set off, because my judgement is about whether I'll be able to get off okay, not a rather blinkered concern as to merely whether or not cars in front of me are moving.
On my commute to work there is a set of traffic lights, a box junction, and then 2 lanes up to a set of traffic lights after it, 1 lane goes left, 1 lane goes right, each lane holds 6 cars.
Something I see daily on my commute to work is a car that stops 5 car lengths before the 2nd line at the set of traffic lights.
So how does it work if they've stopped 5 car lengths prematurely, causing me to stop in a box junction, even though there is another 5 car lengths in front of them if they stopped at the lights correctly.
This is the junction, cars regularly stop where the black dot is, over the box juction, then when the set of lights change, they start to move forward and turn right...
Another thing with these box junctions. If there are two lanes and you set off over the junction as the car beyond the yellow box (in your lane) has moved. But then the car along side you speeds off and cuts across to get in the gap leaving you stranded on the yellow lines.
It happens on the permanently gridlocked Fulham Palace Road near Charing Cross Hospital regularly.
If I ever find myself about to stop in a box junction I drive as slow as possible so I never actually have to stop - has worked on a few occasions - can't really do me if I never physically stop my car
That's what I do as well, although I do try not to enter the junction unless I can get out. To be fair, even if someone on your left gets into the junction before you do, they wouldn't have done it until the traffic was moving or they'd get done for it, so it shouldn't really hold you up.
Another thing with these box junctions. If there are two lanes and you set off over the junction as the car beyond the yellow box (in your lane) has moved. But then the car along side you speeds off and cuts across to get in the gap leaving you stranded on the yellow lines.
It happens on the permanently gridlocked Fulham Palace Road near Charing Cross Hospital regularly.
It was in the box junction at the start of Fulham Palace Road under the flyover that I got the penalty notice that started this thread! On the way to Charing Cross, too.
I can't see where this "traffic moving when you enter the box" business comes from. The TSRGD quote makes it quite clear:
I've never even heard of the "TSRGD" before but the above is how I've always understood these junctions are to be treated: don't go on unless you'll be able to get off - don't stop on them.
It seems to me that that means you've got to judge it correctly - don't enter unless you feel sure that you'll be able to get out without stopping. This is a different beast, albeit subtly so, to the quoted Highway Code section:
It's perfectly possible - I probably do it a couple of times a week on my commute - to enter a box with the exit NOT clear, but I can see that with the way lights are changing, etc, I WILL be able to leave it without stopping. I'm always a bit wary of something unforeseen cropping up, but as has been said, this is one of those things were you can easily and unnecessarily miss out on a phase of the lights if you're too timid. At least the junction isn't monitored.
Conversely, there are plenty of times at the junction I'm thnking of where I could set off on to the box, thinking, "This is okay, because the cars in front of me are moving," and yet end up stationary on the junction. But I don't set off, because my judgement is about whether I'll be able to get off okay, not a rather blinkered concern as to merely whether or not cars in front of me are moving.
I do agree with this, I also will wait if i'm not sure if I can get through the box junction. The problem comes though, as i've mentioned a couple of times already, when it's not possible to get through the junction in one traffic light cycle, ie - even if you're at the front of the queue the traffic infront moves so slowly that the junciton doesn't clear before the lights change and traffic starts coming in from the other direction. Of course they're not suppose to go in either but they do, so you end up in a situation where you are forced to do so as well.
I'm a new driver and this happened to me yesterday, I got stuck in the middle of a box junction. I think I was at fault though in all honesty, I misjudged the situation - as the set of traffic lights went green the van in front of me went past the box at a moving pace and I assumed due to his speed that there would be space for me. He suddenly hits his brakes, I'm guessing to allow a car to go in front of him from the right lane and that left me stuck right in the box.
I have no idea if the area is monitored or not but it's one of those spots that always has a traffic build up.
I don't mind paying a fine but what I'm concerned about is points on my license. As I'm still in my first year, I'm only allowed up to 6 penalty points.
I'm a new driver and this happened to me yesterday, I got stuck in the middle of a box junction. I think I was at fault though in all honesty, I misjudged the situation - as the set of traffic lights went green the van in front of me went past the box at a moving pace and I assumed due to his speed that there would be space for me. He suddenly hits his brakes, I'm guessing to allow a car to go in front of him from the right lane and that left me stuck right in the box.
I have no idea if the area is monitored or not but it's one of those spots that always has a traffic build up.
I don't mind paying a fine but what I'm concerned about is points on my license. As I'm still in my first year, I'm only allowed up to 6 penalty points.
You don't get points on your license for these Council issued PCNs
Comments
Which isn't possible in the situation in my earlier post. So you are forced to either break a written law or not move and almost certainly get arrested for the chaos that ensues.
first post , bumping a 3.5 year old thread to spam the forum , is this a record
In this case the HC is a misquote of TSRGD, which is the legal document which matters.
http://www.ticketfighter.co.uk/yellow.htm is all the relevant legal blarg about box junctions etc... The crucial part is
So the offence is not stopping within the box, per se, but entering it knowing that you would have to stop within it - which isn't what 174 says.
This is why stills aren't sufficient to monitor box junctions and issue PCNs, because it is a moving traffic offence.
I manage it just fine without there being chaos. The lights are usually timed ahead so when your lights go green again the road ahead will start to clear enabling you to move forward. Never had a problem with waiting at the line.
Well you obviously don't have the type of traffic problems we have here. There are a number of junctions where traffic is so slow that the exit is NEVER clear between the hours of 4:30-6:30 on a weekday. All that happens is that 2-3 cars move into the box at each turn of the lights.
Which doesn't matter - if the traffic is moving when you enter the box, then you are not committing an offence even if you subsequently have to stop in the box.
I feel as though we're going round in circles here. Please see my question in post #25
Which I answered in 29...
I've never even heard of the "TSRGD" before but the above is how I've always understood these junctions are to be treated: don't go on unless you'll be able to get off - don't stop on them.
It seems to me that that means you've got to judge it correctly - don't enter unless you feel sure that you'll be able to get out without stopping. This is a different beast, albeit subtly so, to the quoted Highway Code section:
It's perfectly possible - I probably do it a couple of times a week on my commute - to enter a box with the exit NOT clear, but I can see that with the way lights are changing, etc, I WILL be able to leave it without stopping. I'm always a bit wary of something unforeseen cropping up, but as has been said, this is one of those things were you can easily and unnecessarily miss out on a phase of the lights if you're too timid. At least the junction isn't monitored.
Conversely, there are plenty of times at the junction I'm thnking of where I could set off on to the box, thinking, "This is okay, because the cars in front of me are moving," and yet end up stationary on the junction. But I don't set off, because my judgement is about whether I'll be able to get off okay, not a rather blinkered concern as to merely whether or not cars in front of me are moving.
Something I see daily on my commute to work is a car that stops 5 car lengths before the 2nd line at the set of traffic lights.
So how does it work if they've stopped 5 car lengths prematurely, causing me to stop in a box junction, even though there is another 5 car lengths in front of them if they stopped at the lights correctly.
This is the junction, cars regularly stop where the black dot is, over the box juction, then when the set of lights change, they start to move forward and turn right...
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5708967/junction.png
It happens on the permanently gridlocked Fulham Palace Road near Charing Cross Hospital regularly.
That's what I do as well, although I do try not to enter the junction unless I can get out. To be fair, even if someone on your left gets into the junction before you do, they wouldn't have done it until the traffic was moving or they'd get done for it, so it shouldn't really hold you up.
It was in the box junction at the start of Fulham Palace Road under the flyover that I got the penalty notice that started this thread! On the way to Charing Cross, too.
I do agree with this, I also will wait if i'm not sure if I can get through the box junction. The problem comes though, as i've mentioned a couple of times already, when it's not possible to get through the junction in one traffic light cycle, ie - even if you're at the front of the queue the traffic infront moves so slowly that the junciton doesn't clear before the lights change and traffic starts coming in from the other direction. Of course they're not suppose to go in either but they do, so you end up in a situation where you are forced to do so as well.
I have no idea if the area is monitored or not but it's one of those spots that always has a traffic build up.
I don't mind paying a fine but what I'm concerned about is points on my license. As I'm still in my first year, I'm only allowed up to 6 penalty points.
You don't get points on your license for these Council issued PCNs