David Lammy is Harvard educated-- I wonder how much outreach work he did with the disadvantaged kids in Tottenham? I am heartily sick of "role models" for black and other working-class kids being athletes and entertainers.
He banged on my door once while he was campaigning. It was in 2000, around when he got elected. I was about 14 or 15.
I've never been so unimpressed by a politician in my life.
He may be successful but I never, ever saw him as a positive role model.
We take on people according to the colour of their skin into the fire and many other public services. It uses discrimination (although it refers to it as positive) to potentially employ not the best person to save our souls. So the best person is discriminated against (we can refer to this as negative). We live in a complete hypocrisy where it’s the most heinous crime to discriminate against one group and encouraged against another.
If that were true then cases like the white Englishman who was paid hundreds of pounds in compensation this month for being refused a job because of his ethnicity wouldn't exist.
If the fire service is taking demonstrably less qualified firemen on because they're the right colour as you describe then I believe they're breaking the law. Is there any evidence that the white firemen who aren't employed are better at firefighting than the people who eventually got the job?
Maybe the person who sives through the applications is a racist and so they dont know that any have been put through for coloured people.
Maybe the applications have been written in the same poor English as the guy up above who was claiming to know it all re institutional racism. Honestly if I saw an application for bog cleaner that was written in broken English I just wouldn't bother.
This isn't the same as being encouraged to play a musical instrument.
If that were true then cases like the white Englishman who was paid hundreds of pounds in compensation this month for being refused a job because of his ethnicity wouldn't exist.
If the fire service is taking demonstrably less qualified firemen on because they're the right colour as you describe then I believe they're breaking the law.
Well the Police and the fire service both positively discriminate. Let's face it there are X of the Y applicants who are best. Irrespective of race if you don't take the X then you don't have the best that your measurment system allows you to have. If you have to take a larger proportion of Yblack versus Ywhite then unless the blacks are just better then you will not be getting the best people. Just the best of the blacks and best of the whites and not the best overall. Why oh why do we bother with interviews at all if quota's are going to rule and will give you an inferior force.
They should be breaking the law but the law allows for positive discrimination.
Well the Police and the fire service both positively discriminate. Let's face it there are X of the Y applicants who are best. Irrespective of race if you don't take the X then you don't have the best that your measurment system allows you to have. If you have to take a larger proportion of Yblack versus Ywhite then unless the blacks are just better then you will not be getting the best people. Just the best of the blacks and best of the whites and not the best overall. Why oh why do we bother with interviews at all if quota's are going to rule and will give you an inferior force.
They should be breaking the law but the law allows for positive discrimination.
Presumably the interviews determine whether the people applying for the job are suitable and capable of doing it.
I'd hope that before it got to the interview stage the prospective candidate would at least be qualified to become a fireman rather than the fire service just going down to the local Job Centre with a large van or spare engine saying "If you're black - get in the back".
doesn't some of that also have to do with the demographics of the UK - according to the 2001 census about 2% of the population was classed as black whereas in the US in 2009 it was about 13% of the population
That is indeed a part of it, but trust me, I work with some of these people. They may be "liberal" but they don't think it is at all authentic unless it's like The Wire.
What's wrong with making a programme about aspirational black people? Is a programme that stars black people just for black people? Do those 2% wish to see themselves represented positively? I watch SATC, and I am not a single white female.
That is indeed a part of it, but trust me, I work with some of these people. They may be "liberal" but they don't think it is at all authentic unless it's like The Wire.
What's wrong with making a programme about aspirational black people? Is a programme that stars black people just for black people? Do those 2% wish to see themselves represented positively? I watch SATC, and I am not a single white female.
Nothing as far as I can see - maybe it's the possible viewing figures and the powers that be don't think there's an audience for a programme like that
Nothing as far as I can see - maybe it's the possible viewing figures and the powers that be don't think there's an audience for a programme like that
Not to mention the backlash from people who wouldn't watch a programme like this in a million years yet would deny others the right to watch it. Should the programme be made by the BBC or Channel 4 these "restless natives" would be complaining about the "waste" of public money on a programme whose subject matter they don't like.
Nothing as far as I can see - maybe it's the possible viewing figures and the powers that be don't think there's an audience for a programme like that
If viewing figures were a problem, hardly anything would get commissioned on BBC3. In fact, Luther, starring Idris Elba had extremely high viewing figures and a black man is in a lead role.
No one is saying there should be a 50/50 split or anything like that. A huge amount of it is down to really lazy commissioning editors.
It's way more complex than that. Some black children most certainly are not given the same opportunity as everyone else, and there seems to be "positive stereotyping" when it comes to Asian and Oriental students in particular.
If you Google this study done by the University of Chicago, it shows how two identical CVs were given to an employer-- one with a "white" name and one with a "black" name. The black name was binned and the person not called for an interview.
There have been instances of black male students not being given homework because teachers figured they weren't going to do it anyway.
I'm a pretty smart woman. I went to an inner-city school I was so far behind my white counterparts at Uni, even though I was smarter than a lot of them. They didn't even offer advance placement courses at my school. Thankfully, I did work outside of school and read voraciously. I also attended college courses before I went to university. The idea of applying to an Ivy League was about as likely as going to the moon. People from where I was from just didn't go to places like that.
How come when anyone talks about black achievement, it's always in the fields of entertainment and sport? The head of Interpol is (or was) black. One of the leading astrophysicists in this country is black. There is a millionaire Tory science minister who is black. Perhaps if people like that were bigged up more, black kids would be better off. I'm really sorry to tell you, but institutional racism does happen.
It probably does, but maybe people as a whole need to aim to get our of the sink estates, regardless of what colour. They all have the opportunity to go to school, their parents can push them to work hard and get out, or can let them just skim by, again nothing to do with colour, it's to do with lifestyle and choices made.
Any child can work hard a school, they may have to face different adversities and a harder slog, in some instances a very hard slog, but it can still be done! There are always people willing to help, they just have to find them, even if it's off their own teenage/child-age (sp?) back.
Not to mention the backlash from people who wouldn't watch a programme like this in a million years yet would deny others the right to watch it. Should the programme be made by the BBC or Channel 4 these "restless natives" would be complaining about the "waste" of public money on a programme whose subject matter they don't like.
If you watch US sitcom type programs for youngsters, the fact that the leads are black is rarely an issue. They share the same values as any other aspirational family, and always there's a huge emphasis on education.. Occasionally they have an episode that explores racism.
What we have in this country is a faux patronising attitude to black people from the "racked with guilt liberal white middle class" program makers.
If it's a black lead, it has to be a "black" lead.
I can't imagine there being a program like "Raven" made here. At some point it would be attacked from all sides as either being unrepresentative, patronising, unrealistic, class traitorist, roots traitorist ect.
Rather than it being a pretty good amusing sit com for teens that simply entertains first and foremost and doesn't tie itself in knots about issues.
(watched far too much Raven over the years, can you tell?):D
It probably does, but maybe people as a whole need to aim to get our of the sink estates, regardless of what colour. They all have the opportunity to go to school, their parents can push them to work hard and get out, or can let them just skim by, again nothing to do with colour, it's to do with lifestyle and choices made.
Any child can work hard a school, they may have to face different adversities and a harder slog, in some instances a very hard slog, but it can still be done! There are always people willing to help, they just have to find them, even if it's off their own teenage/child-age (sp?) back.
If, like I did, you went to a shitty school that had old textbooks, people with serious behaviour and learning problems, teachers that didn't want to be there and so forth, it's pretty damned hard to be successful-- even if you have parents like mine that were encouraging. Like I said, I'm pretty clever, but had I not taken some extra work outside of school, I would have been even worse off in uni than I was.
The whole "you work hard and reap rewards" is a bit of a fallacy. Your idea is woefully oversimplified.
If you watch US sitcom type programs for youngsters, the fact that the leads are black is rarely an issue. They share the same values as any other aspirational family, and always there's a huge emphasis on education.. Occasionally they have an episode that explores racism.
What we have in this country is a faux patronising attitude to black people from the "racked with guilt liberal white middle class" program makers.
If it's a black lead, it has to be a "black" lead.
I can't imagine there being a program like "Raven" made here. At some point it would be attacked from all sides as either being unrepresentative, patronising, unrealistic, class traitorist, roots traitorist ect.
Rather than it being a pretty good amusing sit com for teens that simply entertains first and foremost and doesn't tie itself in knots about issues.
(watched far too much Raven over the years, can you tell?):D
One thing I will say is that over here, they do a better job of putting people in mixed-race relationships without handwringing. However, mixed-race relationships never met with as much nastiness as they did in the USA.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on the programme makers though. Their idea of what "black" is contrary to what the reality is. Of course there are serious problems within some sections of some parts of (god I hate saying this) the black community, but it isn't all "The Wire." I grew up in a place that was like that, yes. But I had my dad at home, he was in a good job and we had values.
"That's So Raven" is quite funny-- True Jackson's a good show as well.
Most people are racist, blacks don't like Asians, Asian X doesn't like Asian Y and everyone hates Whites and it's often reciprocated. However the reason Blacks don't make it to Uni is because often their culture does not encourage it, also their culture is not perhaps in tune with British life. On the otehr hand Asians work hard (Hindu/Sikh at least) and get on and often do far better than the white population. It's a simple answer to the problem which is above, I don't see the need for all the posturing, let's agree to disagree. Frankly the only reason I can see for the thread is to stir up racial hatred against white people.
Bullshit. A) Not and all black culture is the same and I suggest you hang around with some middle class Nigerian parents. Higher education, ambition, a good career etc are certainly encouraged in that culture in fact they are stressed every bit as much as in the stereotypical Asian culture. My parents are immigrants and have adapted perfectly fine to 'British life'. They both went to uni have Masters degrees and good jobs. I went to an independent school and I was certainly not the only black pupil there, in fact about 6 (black) pupils in my year went to Oxbridge. I can also assure you many 'blacks' work hard and get on with things :rolleyes:
Bullshit. A) Not and all black culture is the same and I suggest you hang around with some middle class Nigerian parents. Higher education, ambition, a good career etc are certainly encouraged in that culture in fact they are stressed every bit as much as in the stereotypical Asian culture. My parents are immigrants and have adapted perfectly fine to 'British life'. They both went to uni have Masters degrees and good jobs. I went to an independent school and I was certainly not the only black pupil there, in fact about 6 (black) pupils in my year went to Oxbridge. I can also assure you many 'blacks' work hard and get on with things :rolleyes:
.
See when I used that word often, well that means often, and not all. I have hung around with a Nigerian from time to time, he tells me that they rip it out of us far worse than we do (not that I do). Basically your point is that your example makes my often not correct. What is this 'went to Oxbridge', they either went to Oxford or Cambridge.
Can I take this opportunity to say hello to Serena.
Comments
He banged on my door once while he was campaigning. It was in 2000, around when he got elected. I was about 14 or 15.
I've never been so unimpressed by a politician in my life.
He may be successful but I never, ever saw him as a positive role model.
OOOOOOH........
racists under the bed.
If that were true then cases like the white Englishman who was paid hundreds of pounds in compensation this month for being refused a job because of his ethnicity wouldn't exist.
If the fire service is taking demonstrably less qualified firemen on because they're the right colour as you describe then I believe they're breaking the law. Is there any evidence that the white firemen who aren't employed are better at firefighting than the people who eventually got the job?
Maybe the applications have been written in the same poor English as the guy up above who was claiming to know it all re institutional racism. Honestly if I saw an application for bog cleaner that was written in broken English I just wouldn't bother.
Well the Police and the fire service both positively discriminate. Let's face it there are X of the Y applicants who are best. Irrespective of race if you don't take the X then you don't have the best that your measurment system allows you to have. If you have to take a larger proportion of Yblack versus Ywhite then unless the blacks are just better then you will not be getting the best people. Just the best of the blacks and best of the whites and not the best overall. Why oh why do we bother with interviews at all if quota's are going to rule and will give you an inferior force.
They should be breaking the law but the law allows for positive discrimination.
I'd hope that before it got to the interview stage the prospective candidate would at least be qualified to become a fireman rather than the fire service just going down to the local Job Centre with a large van or spare engine saying "If you're black - get in the back".
That is indeed a part of it, but trust me, I work with some of these people. They may be "liberal" but they don't think it is at all authentic unless it's like The Wire.
What's wrong with making a programme about aspirational black people? Is a programme that stars black people just for black people? Do those 2% wish to see themselves represented positively? I watch SATC, and I am not a single white female.
Nothing as far as I can see - maybe it's the possible viewing figures and the powers that be don't think there's an audience for a programme like that
If viewing figures were a problem, hardly anything would get commissioned on BBC3. In fact, Luther, starring Idris Elba had extremely high viewing figures and a black man is in a lead role.
No one is saying there should be a 50/50 split or anything like that. A huge amount of it is down to really lazy commissioning editors.
It probably does, but maybe people as a whole need to aim to get our of the sink estates, regardless of what colour. They all have the opportunity to go to school, their parents can push them to work hard and get out, or can let them just skim by, again nothing to do with colour, it's to do with lifestyle and choices made.
Any child can work hard a school, they may have to face different adversities and a harder slog, in some instances a very hard slog, but it can still be done! There are always people willing to help, they just have to find them, even if it's off their own teenage/child-age (sp?) back.
If you watch US sitcom type programs for youngsters, the fact that the leads are black is rarely an issue. They share the same values as any other aspirational family, and always there's a huge emphasis on education.. Occasionally they have an episode that explores racism.
What we have in this country is a faux patronising attitude to black people from the "racked with guilt liberal white middle class" program makers.
If it's a black lead, it has to be a "black" lead.
I can't imagine there being a program like "Raven" made here. At some point it would be attacked from all sides as either being unrepresentative, patronising, unrealistic, class traitorist, roots traitorist ect.
Rather than it being a pretty good amusing sit com for teens that simply entertains first and foremost and doesn't tie itself in knots about issues.
(watched far too much Raven over the years, can you tell?):D
Working hard does not guarantee that you will leave your sink estate. Here's an article that addresses this:
http://www.politics.co.uk/news/welfare-and-pensions/rise-in-working-poor--$21383775.htm
Here's another:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11922516
If, like I did, you went to a shitty school that had old textbooks, people with serious behaviour and learning problems, teachers that didn't want to be there and so forth, it's pretty damned hard to be successful-- even if you have parents like mine that were encouraging. Like I said, I'm pretty clever, but had I not taken some extra work outside of school, I would have been even worse off in uni than I was.
The whole "you work hard and reap rewards" is a bit of a fallacy. Your idea is woefully oversimplified.
One thing I will say is that over here, they do a better job of putting people in mixed-race relationships without handwringing. However, mixed-race relationships never met with as much nastiness as they did in the USA.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on the programme makers though. Their idea of what "black" is contrary to what the reality is. Of course there are serious problems within some sections of some parts of (god I hate saying this) the black community, but it isn't all "The Wire." I grew up in a place that was like that, yes. But I had my dad at home, he was in a good job and we had values.
"That's So Raven" is quite funny-- True Jackson's a good show as well.
Exactly! This 35 figure seems to be regarding Black Caribbeans. What about Black Africans?
Bullshit. A) Not and all black culture is the same and
Really, how strange. I go to the cinema and theatre all the time and see other black people, both in my uni town and at home.
See when I used that word often, well that means often, and not all. I have hung around with a Nigerian from time to time, he tells me that they rip it out of us far worse than we do (not that I do). Basically your point is that your example makes my often not correct. What is this 'went to Oxbridge', they either went to Oxford or Cambridge.
Can I take this opportunity to say hello to Serena.