What about the kids of other races who live in those areas?
My kids go to or have been to inner city schools and there is most certainly no racism holding down any kid from any race.
My eldest has just finished university with a degree. One of my sons will be going to university in three years time, and I hope my youngest also decides to take that path. I'll certainly encourage them as much as I can.
So it's not the schools. They offer every opportunity.
Did I mention racism? Nope, simply that the average black person is more likely to live in a deprived inner city area where the schools simply aren't as good as elswehere. Not all schools are equal, not all schools offer the same level of education and oppotunities.
How many poor white people from sink estates get to go to Oxford?
Look at the top schools in the UK that get the best exam results and they are in predominately white area. It's these people that get to go to Oxford.
As for your kids, unless they went to Oxford or Cambridge it's pointless bringing them up. Well done, your kids went to University but there's a world of difference between Nottingham and Oxford.
To me that seems much closer to the truth. Maybe they don't get the support to get the right uni place, or are badly advised? We were well advised, the lad got a really good place for the subject he wanted at a good uni. They were right, Oxbridge was not suitable. It would seem to me that not enough black people are being advised to go for it, though for all the factors we know about, we might not expect the 'right proportion to be right for it. Yet. There are lots of iniciatives and research aimed at rectifying that. As to the actual stats, it must be British blacks it's referring to. There are foreign students there.
it becomes a vicious cycle, why apply when there's not much chance in getting in and waste a space on the form for a more likely uni?
The thing about Oxbridge is that they do a lot more face to face interviews than most unis so there's more opportunity for discrimination. "That's not the sort of person we want to see at our college!" etc...
you only need an ounce of intelligence to see that's what's going wrong for black applicants who have the grades
this whole assumption of them not being smart enough is just tiresome, ignorant and veiled racism
Quite. I can point to numerous academic articles about this precise issue. I can give examples of black children being failed by education. Here's an example:
My cousin is a very bright and extremely gifted artist. He's been drawing and painting since he could pick up a pen. Do you know that his guidance counsellor suggested that he go into the Armed Forces instead of going to do a degree in art? My cousin is from an affluent middle-class background. His father has mulitple degrees from a top uni in our state. My cousin had never, ever expressed interest in a military career-- he's a pacifist for one thing. My cousin did go to art college, because his mother raised hell about that counsellor. How many other bright black kids did this counsellor let down? My cousin went to an ethnically mixed school, and none of his white friends were as badly advised as he was; it's the reason my aunt went mental.
It would seem that 20 Oxbridge colleges made no offers to black applicants this year, and one College hasn't admitted a black student in the last 5 years. http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/dec/06/oxford-colleges-no-black-students
Given that those colleges educate the future leaders of our country, what message are they putting across.
I could be that there were no bright black applicants ........... :rolleyes:
The article picks and mixes statistics in quite a convincing way to make you think there is systemic racism. But I was able to see through it and see what they didn't report.
I have lots of non-white friends who have been to cambridge. I even went to a school which is a large feeder school for cambridge and oxford. No one has ever had the slightest feeling of racism there, they are genuinely interested in talent.
Black peole do statistically underachieve at school, you will find fewer of them in independent schools too etc. The idea that there are few black kids because a) the number applying is few, b) from those who do apply many don't make the grade is convincing.
Remember the competition is international, you've got kids from singapore, malaysia and hong kong applying as well as those from yorkshire. There were two black guys in my year at school, one went to oxford and the other went to LSE.
Ignoring all other factors, chances are in this country there is a greater chance of a white person passing an interview. There are simply more white people. Say 10% of application wil pass an interview, simple statistics say they will almost certainly all be white.
The numbers applying is the issue not the interview selection.
Did I mention racism? Nope, simply that the average black person is more likely to live in a deprived inner city area where the schools simply aren't as good as elswehere. Not all schools are equal, not all schools offer the same level of education and oppotunities.
How many poor white people from sink estates get to go to Oxford?
Look at the top schools in the UK that get the best exam results and they are in predominately white area. It's these people that get to go to Oxford.
As for your kids, unless they went to Oxford or Cambridge it's pointless bringing them up. Well done, your kids went to University but there's a world of difference between Nottingham and Oxford.
The path is, unfortunately, mapped out and the delegated schools that will eventually lead the chosen to the doors of Oxbridge and Cambridge, one, that requires you to usually have the social class, connections and money for such an avenue.
I did, however, watch a rather enlightening programme regarding scholarships by private benefactors who supported gifted and bright pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds in helping them gain a place at these top schools.
Now predominately white or not, surely you would expect a few black, or even, one to be a suitable candidate?
Quite. I can point to numerous academic articles about this precise issue. I can give examples of black children being failed by education. Here's an example:
My cousin is a very bright and extremely gifted artist. He's been drawing and painting since he could pick up a pen. Do you know that his guidance counsellor suggested that he go into the Armed Forces instead of going to do a degree in art? My cousin is from an affluent middle-class background. His father has mulitple degrees from a top uni in our state. My cousin had never, ever expressed interest in a military career-- he's a pacifist for one thing. My cousin did go to art college, because his mother raised hell about that counsellor. How many other bright black kids did this counsellor let down? My cousin went to an ethnically mixed school, and none of his white friends were as badly advised as he was; it's the reason my aunt went mental.
The article picks and mixes statistics in quite a convincing way to make you think there is systemic racism. But I was able to see through it and see what they didn't report.
I have lots of non-white friends who have been to cambridge. I even went to a school which is a large feeder school for cambridge and oxford. No one has ever had the slightest feeling of racism there, they are genuinely interested in talent.
Black peole do statistically underachieve at school, you will find fewer of them in independent schools too etc. The idea that there are few black kids because a) the number applying is few, b) from those who do apply many don't make the grade is convincing.
Remember the competition is international, you've got kids from singapore, malaysia and hong kong applying as well as those from yorkshire. There were two black guys in my year at school, one went to oxford and the other went to LSE.
There is a reason for that, and it's not down to lack of intelligence, whatever. Do you honestly think that black parents don't want their children to do well? As for the kids from the Asian countries you mentioned, there is a positive stereotype for those kids, the cultural factors are different, etc. Most white kids wouldn't do as well as an Asian kid when it comes to some exams. White kids aren't dumber and Asian kids aren't smarter. It's cultural. Black people tend to be poorer, hence the lack of them at independent schools.
They let Indians Chinese and asians in general in so doesnt that put racism out of being the issue or is it right old racism of being just black?
Do you see race simply as "whites" and "everyone else"?
Perhaps it's a case that the education system caters better for the needs of certain sections of society? And if that's the case then something needs to be done about it.
They let Indians Chinese and asians in general in so doesnt that put racism out of being the issue or is it right old racism of being just black?
It's more complex than "who they let in."
There is a positive stereotype that Chinese, Japanese, Indian kids tend to be smarter and harder working than other kids. There is a stereotype that black children don't want to learn, are not interested in school, lazy and frankly less intelligent. None of these are true.
Black African children do better than Afro-Carribean children. Why? Because of culture. It's the reason why Bangledeshis do worse than Indian children.
There is no simple reason to explain any of this. A lot of it is do to class, institutional racism and the failure of the educational system for some pupils, regardless of race.
My OH is an intelligent man who should have gone to uni, but no one where he was from went. His parents never encouraged him to use his brain and that a massive world existed outside of his area.
For me, my parents taught me that the only way out of my situation was education. Once I had it, no one could take it away from me. I was pushed from an early age to work hard and that university was where I was supposed to go. Again, my OH and I are from two different cultures.
I have a black friend at an Oxford college - but he's South African and got in through the Rhodes scholar program (which is a British scholarship program).
Racism doesn't seem the issue at all though, if it's the case that over 17,000 people are applying for about 4,000 places I'm sure you could pick out any random group of 35 names and they wouldn't have had an offer - whatever their skin colour.
It's more complex than "who they let in."
There is a positive stereotype that Chinese, Japanese, Indian kids tend to be smarter and harder working than other kids. There is a stereotype that black children don't want to learn, are not interested in school, lazy and frankly less intelligent. None of these are true.
Black African children do better than Afro-Carribean children. Why? Because of culture. It's the reason why Bangledeshis do worse than Indian children.
There is no simple reason to explain any of this. A lot of it is do to class, institutional racism and the failure of the educational system for some pupils, regardless of race.
My OH is an intelligent man who should have gone to uni, but no one where he was from went. His parents never encouraged him to use his brain and that a massive world existed outside of his area.
For me, my parents taught me that the only way out of my situation was education. Once I had it, no one could take it away from me. I was pushed from an early age to work hard and that university was where I was supposed to go. Again, my OH and I are from two different cultures.
precisely
how many people are just grateful that they were given the chance to do something they wouldn't normally be afforded?
sometimes it's just about something as simple as being given a chance
Just commenting generally... institutional racism has been shown to be found among top universities.
Some years ago a whistleblower revealed that one of the medical schools at the University of London (St Georges i think it was) were using a computer program to filter out applications with 'ethnic' sounding names.
Oh & guess what, iirc the whistleblower got hounded for daring to reveal their dirty little secret. :rolleyes:
It's more complex than "who they let in."
There is a positive stereotype that Chinese, Japanese, Indian kids tend to be smarter and harder working than other kids. There is a stereotype that black children don't want to learn, are not interested in school, lazy and frankly less intelligent. None of these are true.
Black African children do better than Afro-Carribean children. Why? Because of culture. It's the reason why Bangledeshis do worse than Indian children.
There is no simple reason to explain any of this. A lot of it is do to class, institutional racism and the failure of the educational system for some pupils, regardless of race.
My OH is an intelligent man who should have gone to uni, but no one where he was from went. His parents never encouraged him to use his brain and that a massive world existed outside of his area.
For me, my parents taught me that the only way out of my situation was education. Once I had it, no one could take it away from me. I was pushed from an early age to work hard and that university was where I was supposed to go. Again, my OH and I are from two different cultures.
Maybe the lack of black students at Oxbridge is down to cultural reasons too then, and not because of racism at the colleges?
Just commenting generally... institutional racism has been shown to be found among top universities.
Some years ago a whistleblower revealed that one of the medical schools at the University of London (St Georges i think it was) were using a computer program to filter out applications with 'ethnic' sounding names.
Oh & guess what, iirc the whistleblower got hounded for daring to reveal their dirty little secret. :rolleyes:
some of the people at the top of these places are incredibly ancient and sad that the empire ever went away!:eek:
There is a reason for that, and it's not down to lack of intelligence, whatever. Do you honestly think that black parents don't want their children to do well? As for the kids from the Asian countries you mentioned, there is a positive stereotype for those kids, the cultural factors are different, etc. Most white kids wouldn't do as well as an Asian kid when it comes to some exams. White kids aren't dumber and Asian kids aren't smarter. It's cultural. Black people tend to be poorer, hence the lack of them at independent schools.
People have to work hard to get results .You dont give people places becasue they are under achieving .Some kids dont put the work in and they dont make it / sometimes their families arent that bothered and it rubs off.Its not society that needs to correct this but individuals and their families with hard work /energy and creativity ambition
Comments
Did I mention racism? Nope, simply that the average black person is more likely to live in a deprived inner city area where the schools simply aren't as good as elswehere. Not all schools are equal, not all schools offer the same level of education and oppotunities.
How many poor white people from sink estates get to go to Oxford?
Look at the top schools in the UK that get the best exam results and they are in predominately white area. It's these people that get to go to Oxford.
As for your kids, unless they went to Oxford or Cambridge it's pointless bringing them up. Well done, your kids went to University but there's a world of difference between Nottingham and Oxford.
i don't have to prove anything
your ignorance speaks for itself
it becomes a vicious cycle, why apply when there's not much chance in getting in and waste a space on the form for a more likely uni?
And for most, a huge majority of uni applicants, that is the right decision. Harsh but true.
Why should anyone have to prove anything? This only an internet forum, you do realise that...don't you...
Perhaps these black applicants display the same level or arrogance as you do.
In which case it's no wonder they don't get places.
it is harsh that a prestigious uni is inadvertently getting itself a bad reputation with race selection
lol, are you bored?
Quite. I can point to numerous academic articles about this precise issue. I can give examples of black children being failed by education. Here's an example:
My cousin is a very bright and extremely gifted artist. He's been drawing and painting since he could pick up a pen. Do you know that his guidance counsellor suggested that he go into the Armed Forces instead of going to do a degree in art? My cousin is from an affluent middle-class background. His father has mulitple degrees from a top uni in our state. My cousin had never, ever expressed interest in a military career-- he's a pacifist for one thing. My cousin did go to art college, because his mother raised hell about that counsellor. How many other bright black kids did this counsellor let down? My cousin went to an ethnically mixed school, and none of his white friends were as badly advised as he was; it's the reason my aunt went mental.
The article picks and mixes statistics in quite a convincing way to make you think there is systemic racism. But I was able to see through it and see what they didn't report.
I have lots of non-white friends who have been to cambridge. I even went to a school which is a large feeder school for cambridge and oxford. No one has ever had the slightest feeling of racism there, they are genuinely interested in talent.
Black peole do statistically underachieve at school, you will find fewer of them in independent schools too etc. The idea that there are few black kids because a) the number applying is few, b) from those who do apply many don't make the grade is convincing.
Remember the competition is international, you've got kids from singapore, malaysia and hong kong applying as well as those from yorkshire. There were two black guys in my year at school, one went to oxford and the other went to LSE.
The numbers applying is the issue not the interview selection.
The path is, unfortunately, mapped out and the delegated schools that will eventually lead the chosen to the doors of Oxbridge and Cambridge, one, that requires you to usually have the social class, connections and money for such an avenue.
I did, however, watch a rather enlightening programme regarding scholarships by private benefactors who supported gifted and bright pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds in helping them gain a place at these top schools.
Now predominately white or not, surely you would expect a few black, or even, one to be a suitable candidate?
what a let down! thank goodness for his parents!
There is a reason for that, and it's not down to lack of intelligence, whatever. Do you honestly think that black parents don't want their children to do well? As for the kids from the Asian countries you mentioned, there is a positive stereotype for those kids, the cultural factors are different, etc. Most white kids wouldn't do as well as an Asian kid when it comes to some exams. White kids aren't dumber and Asian kids aren't smarter. It's cultural. Black people tend to be poorer, hence the lack of them at independent schools.
possibly, it's worth considering/ looking into
if only to dispel the myth that they aren't smart enough
Do you see race simply as "whites" and "everyone else"?
Perhaps it's a case that the education system caters better for the needs of certain sections of society? And if that's the case then something needs to be done about it.
It's more complex than "who they let in."
There is a positive stereotype that Chinese, Japanese, Indian kids tend to be smarter and harder working than other kids. There is a stereotype that black children don't want to learn, are not interested in school, lazy and frankly less intelligent. None of these are true.
Black African children do better than Afro-Carribean children. Why? Because of culture. It's the reason why Bangledeshis do worse than Indian children.
There is no simple reason to explain any of this. A lot of it is do to class, institutional racism and the failure of the educational system for some pupils, regardless of race.
My OH is an intelligent man who should have gone to uni, but no one where he was from went. His parents never encouraged him to use his brain and that a massive world existed outside of his area.
For me, my parents taught me that the only way out of my situation was education. Once I had it, no one could take it away from me. I was pushed from an early age to work hard and that university was where I was supposed to go. Again, my OH and I are from two different cultures.
Racism doesn't seem the issue at all though, if it's the case that over 17,000 people are applying for about 4,000 places I'm sure you could pick out any random group of 35 names and they wouldn't have had an offer - whatever their skin colour.
precisely
how many people are just grateful that they were given the chance to do something they wouldn't normally be afforded?
sometimes it's just about something as simple as being given a chance
Some years ago a whistleblower revealed that one of the medical schools at the University of London (St Georges i think it was) were using a computer program to filter out applications with 'ethnic' sounding names.
Oh & guess what, iirc the whistleblower got hounded for daring to reveal their dirty little secret. :rolleyes:
Maybe the lack of black students at Oxbridge is down to cultural reasons too then, and not because of racism at the colleges?
some of the people at the top of these places are incredibly ancient and sad that the empire ever went away!:eek:
People have to work hard to get results .You dont give people places becasue they are under achieving .Some kids dont put the work in and they dont make it / sometimes their families arent that bothered and it rubs off.Its not society that needs to correct this but individuals and their families with hard work /energy and creativity ambition