At last, someone defining what it means. In the cases you outlined I think you have valid reason to be concerned, I think I would if that happend in my street. The sentance in bold is very relevant as well.
Yes it is a very good and valid point. I believe America had a similar problem in the past. Have they resolved it or is it still evident? Maybe someone will have some knowledge.
I consider it Islamification when you walk down or drive down a street where you feel like a stranger in your own country. When cultures don't integrate.
There's the little things where street names are changed, everything has to be written out in Arabic first, schools are segregated and communities are ghettos. Mosques line the ends of traditional terraced streets- The Architectural style has no sympathy for the surrounding environment looking like something straight out of the Middle East.
But then there's the concerning things. Radicalisation grows where communities become self created ghettos. You get protests against Western states or ideals and blatant radicals preaching on the street and cropping up on TV.
When your local paper board frequently has "x arrested on terrorism charges" you know something has gone wrong.
I live in the Ribble Valley which is a complete difference to these towns- what's very noticeable is White flight into the area. There's lots of pressure on housing from people rich enough to move out of Burnley and Blackburn.
Many who shoot others down for saying things as it is or even daring to bring up the idea there's a problem don't see these things happening day to day. The upraise of Right Wing groups in these areas is a vile but understandable reaction to this.
Just to add to my point, I also think the situation has grown worse over the last few decades as the population has grown. A undercurrent of hard-line has also appeared the Burqa for example was rarely seen.
I recall a program a while back explaining Islamic history and how the Islamic world at the moment is going through a hard line period in general. Christianity has followed a similar route over history where hard line ideals creep in.
I would have thought that an example of Islamification could be found when looking at women;'s rights.
There are now British citizens growing up and being taught that women don't have the right of self determination, do not have the right to marry outside the faith, who are considered property of their husbands and before that their fathers, and who's testemony in a court case is considered less than a mans. (These are just some examples).
As these beliefs are now coming from and being taught by British citizens, then that's the proof that islamfication has spread into the country.
You can't call muslims who are teaching this to the next generation "British" when it suits one argument (usually the one about immigration) and then deny their Britishness when they do things "unBritish" re women's rights. So now we have British citizens not embracing women's emancipation because of Islam, therefore Britain has been Islamified in those cases.
You didn't answer what it is you're trying to prevent? What is this Islamisation exactly? Islamic symbols perhaps? There's plenty of other religious symbols you could also pick out that have increased, along with the Islamic ones. Expand a bit.
If you're going to use the police officer analogy you'd need to know what it is you were trying to prevent. Robberies may all occur at banks, so there wouldn't be much point in patrolling parks.
Perhaps I can help to explain why some people are concerned. My aunt, aged 86 lives in Oldham in Lancashire. She was born there, worked in a cotton mill, and raised her family of three children there.
Her sons, daughter and grandchildren have now all moved away. The reason - they feel as if they are living in a foreign country. She feels that at her age she is too old to move, but her surroundings and indeed her life no longer represent what she was familiar and happy with in her younger years.
You, however, would no doubt claim that no problem exists.
You also no doubt, will now have my name inscribed on a racist scroll of fame for daring to offer this example, but I would just say this. I would feel just as much sympathy for a Pakistani woman of 86 in reverse circumstances if her way of life and everything she was familiar with was changed beyond recognition.
Simply repeating that there is no problem doesn't really cut it.
If you apply for UK citizenship you need to pass an English test, don't you?
on a few occasions I have noted a zero ability to speek English. Some schools with high numbers of Asian pupils also have pressure and a hard time getting children up to basic English levels because it is not spoken at home.
The trouble is that it's common for some British Muslims to marry off abroad. Many (mainly women) come back over with no ability to speek English. This can be berry limiting for them and adds to the ghetto problem.
One problem is that people see Islam and Muslims as being "The foriegn invader", sure there are many who are immigrants, just as there are plenty of East European, African and Asian Christiian immigrants. Someone who is white and born in the UK can become a Muslim and embrace Islam.
The conversion of Europe to Islam, and ultimatly the world is seen as a long term goal and something all muslims should strive towards, this is backed up by a speech by Moammar Gadhafi, that nice chap who runs Libya.
source: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50020
"We have 50 million Muslims in Europe," Gadhafi said. "There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe – without swords, without guns, without conquests. The 50 million Muslims of Europe will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades."
If Turkey is added to the European Union, the Libyan leader said, Europe will have another 50 million Muslims.
Albania, a Muslim-majority country, and Bosnia, which is half Muslim, also appear to be on their way to EU membership.
"Europe is in a predicament, and so is America," Gadhafi said. "They should agree to become Islamic in the course of time, or else declare war on the Muslims."
The birth rates is also interesting, something our western culture does not understand, middle east play the birth rate game, Israel for example give generous benefits for large families, we see this happening in UK. and across Europe. The birth rate amongst white UK families is no longer the traditional 2.1, but has dropped way below that figure. However, when you look at the national birth rate, its still around the 2.0 mark.
Look at the Islamic community birth rate and you will see it stands about 8.0, which has inflated the national rate. At this current growth, Muslims will in say 50 years time have a big enough percentage of the population to make dramatic impacts within the national government, eventually returning an Islamic government.
This is something echoed by many leaders in Middle east, here is one such example.
The conversion of Europe to Islam, and ultimatly the world is seen as a long term goal and something all muslims should strive towards, this is backed up by a speech by Moammar Gadhafi, that nice chap who runs Libya.
source: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50020
I am not sure that Col. Gadhafi can really claim to be the global voice of Islam however so does he relfect everyones views any more than say George W.Bush or Tony Blair represented the views of everyone in the 'west' ?
Look at the Islamic community birth rate and you will see it stands about 8.0, which has inflated the national rate. At this current growth, Muslims will in say 50 years time have a big enough percentage of the population to make dramatic impacts within the national government, eventually returning an Islamic government.
I dont see the logic there. You are supposing that every single Muslim who votes whould vote for an Islamic Govenement ? Represented by what party ? Do we have an 'Islamic Party' ? I also would dispute in 50 years that Muslims over 18 years of age would be in greater numbers than none Muslims. At the last census they represeneted 3% of the population, your saying that in 50% the current Muslim birth rate would grow 50 51% of the population ? And that they would all vote the same way ?
I am not sure that Col. Gadhafi can really claim to be the global voice of Islam however so does he relfect everyones views any more than say George W.Bush or Tony Blair represented the views of everyone in the 'west' ?
?
There are some extreme posters who like to label the entire western world as a result of its leadership yes.
I consider it Islamification when you walk down or drive down a street where you feel like a stranger in your own country. When cultures don't integrate.
There's the little things where street names are changed, everything has to be written out in Arabic first, schools are segregated and communities are ghettos. Mosques line the ends of traditional terraced streets- The Architectural style has no sympathy for the surrounding environment looking like something straight out of the Middle East.
But then there's the concerning things. Radicalisation grows where communities become self created ghettos. You get protests against Western states or ideals and blatant radicals preaching on the street and cropping up on TV.
When your local paper board frequently has "x arrested on terrorism charges" you know something has gone wrong.
I live in the Ribble Valley which is a complete difference to these towns- what's very noticeable is White flight into the area. There's lots of pressure on housing from people rich enough to move out of Burnley and Blackburn.
Many who shoot others down for saying things as it is or even daring to bring up the idea there's a problem don't see these things happening day to day. The upraise of Right Wing groups in these areas is a vile but understandable reaction to this.
Spot on post. Nobody could care less about whats happened to the northern mill towns. Now that the state within a state living / parrallel lives / wont go areas / white flight is gripping other parts of the UK people are actually starting to realise whats going on.
White flight is rife. My mum & dad have finaly left Oldham & the removal driver said ' All i ever do is move white familes out of the town , 10 in one week' Anybody with a brain / money has left these hell holes behind.
Towns like Oldham are finished, totaly beyond help , the council which is the root cause of all the problems due to its gerrymandering has tied its colours to one particular mast.
A trip to the maternity ward at the Royal Oldham Hospital & the registars office will tell you all need to know about where the future of Oldham is heading.
I'm not sure if there is a concerted movement of "Islamification" in this country, but there is definately a problem with some its more "extreme" followers. Unfortunately with the likes of muslim radicals and the EDL going at it (plus the juvenile nerds of UAF) then there's going to be problems down the line... Enoch Powell was partly right in his predictions.
Perhaps I can help to explain why some people are concerned. My aunt, aged 86 lives in Oldham in Lancashire. She was born there, worked in a cotton mill, and raised her family of three children there.
Her sons, daughter and grandchildren have now all moved away. The reason - they feel as if they are living in a foreign country. She feels that at her age she is too old to move, but her surroundings and indeed her life no longer represent what she was familiar and happy with in her younger years.
You, however, would no doubt claim that no problem exists.
You also no doubt, will now have my name inscribed on a racist scroll of fame for daring to offer this example, but I would just say this. I would feel just as much sympathy for a Pakistani woman of 86 in reverse circumstances if her way of life and everything she was familiar with was changed beyond recognition.
Simply repeating that there is no problem doesn't really cut it.
Interesting post, Sutie.
I am a Southerner (London) who has been living in Oldham for just under 3 years.
Whereas I accept/respect the views of you/your relatives, I do not feel that I am living in a foreign country at all.
I spent nearly 5 years living in Bahrain in the late 1980's (Musilim country) and Oldham is nothing like it.
I tell friends down South that I'm living in a borough which has one of the largest immigrant/ehnic minority populations in the country and ask them to guess out of 100, how many are immigrant/ethnic minority. They respond with 50, 60 and are shocked when I tell them that the ethnic percentage is 12%.
There are areas of the borough which are heavily populated by Pakistanis/British Asians e.g. Werneth and Glodwick - Just like Wembley and Southall in London.
But thinking back, when I lived in Bahrain, the Brits all lived in security supervised, walled communities with their own Brit Clubs and no requirement and/or pressure to learn arabic, dress in middle eastern clothes, eat the local food, learn the history of the country and/or convert to Islam.
For most of the time when I drive around the borough, I struggle to see a Pakistani/British Asian face.
I don't wake up to a call to prayer but look out over 3 old cotton mills (decaying as time goes by).
When I do and when I speak to a Pakistani/British Asian, at the shops or in the gym, the accent is always as Oldham as Bernard Cribbins. I've yet to hear a Spike Milliagan-like Slumdog Millionaire-like Sub Continent accent.
Deciding to live in Oldham because of many reasons, but fundamentally because of my interest in the industrial history of the borough (spinning capital of the world pre-WW1), I accept completely that there has been major change here and in the Lancashire Cotton Towns through the 20th Century.
I have no doubt that Sutie's GrandMother feels that Oldham is not the Borough she once knew.
But it is not just a changing poulation mix to blame here, but a complete change in the way of life in the Borough based on Industrial and economic change.
And for many of the older people I talk to, the change in population mix is one that has been very, if not most noticeable. Of course, the cotton Industry is no more here and that is a fundamental problem we face in the UK not just here in Oldham and the NW but across the nation.
What were our staple industries are now gone. We are no longer the land of cotton coal and steel.
Ironically, some may feel, the Asian/Pakistani population began coming to the UK and the NW to work in the dwindling Cotton Industry, taking the low paid jobs in the late 1950's/1960's, just as most immigrants are willing to do and have done through our history.
I do think that there are lost opportunities for people to live, work and play together. An example of this is one of my loves, cricket. Club cricket is huge here, although not as big as it once was. The major teams in the major Central Lancashire League and Lancashire League teams will have Asian players in their teams but usually, its the Professional from India, Pakistan or Sri Lanka. There are not many Asian players in the clubs other than the Professionals even in the teams which are in the middle of what are now more heavily populated Asian areas (Werneth).
The Asian cricketers stick together. Mind you, this phenomenon is not new. When I played for Finchley CC in North London back in the early 1980's we often played teams made up of ethnic group players (Carribean Casuals etc). In fact, Finchley always had and still does have a fair share of players from across he ethnic groups.
But maybe all this says is that people are more comfortable amongst their own, a feeling held as much by us Brits as anyone.
My view of Oldham is that the major change over the last 75 years has been the way of life. The pubs are closing, there isn't a single Cinema in the borough now (can you believe that? You have to drive 15 minutes in Ashton) and the whole life-style which revolved around the daily rythmns (and hard grind, let's not forget) of the cotton Industry has gone.
Like many Northern towns and communities, they are struggling to establish a replacement identity now that the significant roles cast (literally in some cases) out of the Industrial Revolution have gone.
I accept that I am less likely to feel the effects of change here having lived here for 3 years. Suties' Grandmother has lived here considerably longer.
But living in a foreign country, I don't think so, having lived and worked in 3 other than the Uk, one as heavily Muslim as you could find.
I tell friends down South that I'm living in a borough which has one of the largest immigrant/ehnic minority populations in the country and ask them to guess out of 100, how many are immigrant/ethnic minority. They respond with 50, 60 and are shocked when I tell them that the ethnic percentage is 12%.
There are boroughs in Bradford with nearly 100% ethnic populations
There are boroughs in Bradford with nearly 100% ethnic populations
looks like (after a quick google) Bradford is one borough...if you mean wards then maybe so; the data from the 2001 Census for Oldham gave it as 69.3% White.
looks like (after a quick google) Bradford is one borough...if you mean wards then maybe so - though the data from the 2001 Census for Oldham gave it as 69.3% White.
Ah yes it maybe wards, but even if you are taking Bradord council district as a whole the ethnic population was over 30% in 2006 and estimated to be 50% by 2016 so I fail to see how one in Manchester with 12% is the highest in the UK?
I suspect Burnley, Leicester, Parts of Birmingham and London etc are not too far behind either
In Wikipedia, there is an estimate that the British Asian Population in Bradford is higher than that, at just over 20%.
And I have said that in certain parts of certain Boroughs, there would be much higher percentages of individual Ethnic groups (in my post, I talk about Werneth and Glodwick in Oldham).
There will be sections, areas, streets where that percentage will be much higher.
But to talk in terms of 100%? I'm wary of doing this unless such a statement is qualified.
I accept that people's perceptions of such things as population/ethnicity situations is often as important as the reality shown by the numbers, but I think that trying to add some sort of quantification to issues helps in seeing our understanding of them or our attemts at least into a more realistic perspective/context.
While working my way up the corporate ladder many years ago in a major multi national company, I worked with many managers who would not even begin to discuss issues unless I bought them some form of quantification of the problem at hand.
Walking into a meeting with a claim that 'we have a problem' was almost immediately greated by the response, 'What are the numbers'. If I didn' have any, I was sent away to find some. Did the problem affect 1, 10,100 or 1,000 of our customers? 1, 10, 100 or 1,000 of or staff?
The numbes made a fundamental difference in defining the gravity of the problem and in working out how to resolve it, if indeed any time really needed to be allocated.
By the way, an Oldham friend of mine, who now lives in Ilkley (traitor!!!) took me to a curry cafe in Bradford a few months back. I still can't stop thinking about how good the taste was ever time i get hungry.
Ah yes it maybe wards, but even if you are taking Bradord council district as a whole the ethnic population was over 30% in 2006 and estimated to be 50% by 2016 so I fail to see how one in Manchester with 12% is the highest in the UK?
I suspect Burnley, Leicester, Parts of Birmingham and London etc are not too far behind either
quite a way from the 100% though. Tower Hamlets is normally cited as right up there....at 56% non-white (ONS 2006 estimate).
In Wikipedia, there is an estimate that the British Asian Population in Bradford is higher than that, at just over 20%.
And I have said that in certain parts of certain Boroughs, there would be much higher percentages of individual Ethnic groups (in my post, I talk about Werneth and Glodwick in Oldham).
There will be sections, areas, streets where that percentage will be much higher.
But to talk in terms of 100%? I'm wary of doing this unless such a statement is qualified.
I accept that people's perceptions of such things as population/ethnicity situations is often as important as the reality shown by the numbers, but I think that trying to add some sort of quantification to issues helps in seeing our understanding of them or our attemts at least into a more realistic perspective/context.
While working my way up the corporate ladder many years ago in a major multi national company, I worked with many managers who would not even begin to discuss issues unless I bought them some form of quantification of the problem at hand.
Walking into a meeting with a claim that 'we have a problem' was almost immediately greated by the response, 'What are the numbers'. If I didn' have any, I was sent away to find some. Did the problem affect 1, 10,100 or 1,000 of our customers? 1, 10, 100 or 1,000 of or staff?
The numbes made a fundamental difference in defining the gravity of the problem and in working out how to resolve it, if indeed any time really needed to be allocated.
By the way, an Oldham friend of mine, who now lives in Ilkley (traitor!!!) took me to a curry cafe in Bradford a few months back. I still can't stop thinking about how good the taste was ever time i get hungry.
Muslims are not an ethnicity - the self identified white population of Bradford as a whole, including outlying villages was 69.3% in 2006.
Its estimated it will be under 50% in 2016 by the council.
Bradford, an English city will no longer have a majority English population, although it will not be the first I think Leicester will go before then.
And there are many wards within Bradford which are 100% or thereabouts.
Does 56% turn it into seeming like 'living in a foreign country'?
I wonder, this white flight phenomenon, would I be right in thinking it's not as prevalent in London? Is certainly not something I've ever heard mentioned down here, even in TH.
Edit:Looks like the Daily Mail got caught out again - the cached version of their story in Google gives the title "Middle classes leading 'white flight' as 250000 quit London". The headline must have been subsequently revised, as it says the flight is across all ethnicities.
Does 56% turn it into seeming like 'living in a foreign country'?
I wonder, this white flight phenomenon, would I be right in thinking it's not as prevalent in London? Is certainly not something I've ever heard mentioned down here, even in TH.
Edit:Looks like the Daily Mail got caught out again - the cached version of their story in Google gives the title "Middle classes leading 'white flight' as 250000 quit London". The headline must have been subsequently revised, as it says the flight is across all ethnicities.
I don't think percentages pan out across districts in even distribution do they? You get whole areas of districts occupied by one ethnicity, which of course does give the impression of a foreign country.
Comments
Yes it is a very good and valid point. I believe America had a similar problem in the past. Have they resolved it or is it still evident? Maybe someone will have some knowledge.
Just to add to my point, I also think the situation has grown worse over the last few decades as the population has grown. A undercurrent of hard-line has also appeared the Burqa for example was rarely seen.
I recall a program a while back explaining Islamic history and how the Islamic world at the moment is going through a hard line period in general. Christianity has followed a similar route over history where hard line ideals creep in.
There are now British citizens growing up and being taught that women don't have the right of self determination, do not have the right to marry outside the faith, who are considered property of their husbands and before that their fathers, and who's testemony in a court case is considered less than a mans. (These are just some examples).
As these beliefs are now coming from and being taught by British citizens, then that's the proof that islamfication has spread into the country.
You can't call muslims who are teaching this to the next generation "British" when it suits one argument (usually the one about immigration) and then deny their Britishness when they do things "unBritish" re women's rights. So now we have British citizens not embracing women's emancipation because of Islam, therefore Britain has been Islamified in those cases.
Surely two compelling examples of why it is imperative to learn the language?
If you apply for UK citizenship you need to pass an English test, don't you?
Perhaps I can help to explain why some people are concerned. My aunt, aged 86 lives in Oldham in Lancashire. She was born there, worked in a cotton mill, and raised her family of three children there.
Her sons, daughter and grandchildren have now all moved away. The reason - they feel as if they are living in a foreign country. She feels that at her age she is too old to move, but her surroundings and indeed her life no longer represent what she was familiar and happy with in her younger years.
You, however, would no doubt claim that no problem exists.
You also no doubt, will now have my name inscribed on a racist scroll of fame for daring to offer this example, but I would just say this. I would feel just as much sympathy for a Pakistani woman of 86 in reverse circumstances if her way of life and everything she was familiar with was changed beyond recognition.
Simply repeating that there is no problem doesn't really cut it.
Well if this is the case, why do we need so many translators?
Have a nice day, and enjoy the 'holidays'
The trouble is that it's common for some British Muslims to marry off abroad. Many (mainly women) come back over with no ability to speek English. This can be berry limiting for them and adds to the ghetto problem.
The conversion of Europe to Islam, and ultimatly the world is seen as a long term goal and something all muslims should strive towards, this is backed up by a speech by Moammar Gadhafi, that nice chap who runs Libya.
source:
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50020
"We have 50 million Muslims in Europe," Gadhafi said. "There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe – without swords, without guns, without conquests. The 50 million Muslims of Europe will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades."
If Turkey is added to the European Union, the Libyan leader said, Europe will have another 50 million Muslims.
Albania, a Muslim-majority country, and Bosnia, which is half Muslim, also appear to be on their way to EU membership.
"Europe is in a predicament, and so is America," Gadhafi said. "They should agree to become Islamic in the course of time, or else declare war on the Muslims."
The birth rates is also interesting, something our western culture does not understand, middle east play the birth rate game, Israel for example give generous benefits for large families, we see this happening in UK. and across Europe. The birth rate amongst white UK families is no longer the traditional 2.1, but has dropped way below that figure. However, when you look at the national birth rate, its still around the 2.0 mark.
Look at the Islamic community birth rate and you will see it stands about 8.0, which has inflated the national rate. At this current growth, Muslims will in say 50 years time have a big enough percentage of the population to make dramatic impacts within the national government, eventually returning an Islamic government.
This is something echoed by many leaders in Middle east, here is one such example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjkeWYRYgLE
I am not sure that Col. Gadhafi can really claim to be the global voice of Islam however so does he relfect everyones views any more than say George W.Bush or Tony Blair represented the views of everyone in the 'west' ?
I dont see the logic there. You are supposing that every single Muslim who votes whould vote for an Islamic Govenement ? Represented by what party ? Do we have an 'Islamic Party' ? I also would dispute in 50 years that Muslims over 18 years of age would be in greater numbers than none Muslims. At the last census they represeneted 3% of the population, your saying that in 50% the current Muslim birth rate would grow 50 51% of the population ? And that they would all vote the same way ?
There are some extreme posters who like to label the entire western world as a result of its leadership yes.
Spot on post. Nobody could care less about whats happened to the northern mill towns. Now that the state within a state living / parrallel lives / wont go areas / white flight is gripping other parts of the UK people are actually starting to realise whats going on.
White flight is rife. My mum & dad have finaly left Oldham & the removal driver said ' All i ever do is move white familes out of the town , 10 in one week' Anybody with a brain / money has left these hell holes behind.
Towns like Oldham are finished, totaly beyond help , the council which is the root cause of all the problems due to its gerrymandering has tied its colours to one particular mast.
A trip to the maternity ward at the Royal Oldham Hospital & the registars office will tell you all need to know about where the future of Oldham is heading.
Interesting post, Sutie.
I am a Southerner (London) who has been living in Oldham for just under 3 years.
Whereas I accept/respect the views of you/your relatives, I do not feel that I am living in a foreign country at all.
I spent nearly 5 years living in Bahrain in the late 1980's (Musilim country) and Oldham is nothing like it.
I tell friends down South that I'm living in a borough which has one of the largest immigrant/ehnic minority populations in the country and ask them to guess out of 100, how many are immigrant/ethnic minority. They respond with 50, 60 and are shocked when I tell them that the ethnic percentage is 12%.
There are areas of the borough which are heavily populated by Pakistanis/British Asians e.g. Werneth and Glodwick - Just like Wembley and Southall in London.
But thinking back, when I lived in Bahrain, the Brits all lived in security supervised, walled communities with their own Brit Clubs and no requirement and/or pressure to learn arabic, dress in middle eastern clothes, eat the local food, learn the history of the country and/or convert to Islam.
For most of the time when I drive around the borough, I struggle to see a Pakistani/British Asian face.
I don't wake up to a call to prayer but look out over 3 old cotton mills (decaying as time goes by).
When I do and when I speak to a Pakistani/British Asian, at the shops or in the gym, the accent is always as Oldham as Bernard Cribbins. I've yet to hear a Spike Milliagan-like Slumdog Millionaire-like Sub Continent accent.
Deciding to live in Oldham because of many reasons, but fundamentally because of my interest in the industrial history of the borough (spinning capital of the world pre-WW1), I accept completely that there has been major change here and in the Lancashire Cotton Towns through the 20th Century.
I have no doubt that Sutie's GrandMother feels that Oldham is not the Borough she once knew.
But it is not just a changing poulation mix to blame here, but a complete change in the way of life in the Borough based on Industrial and economic change.
And for many of the older people I talk to, the change in population mix is one that has been very, if not most noticeable. Of course, the cotton Industry is no more here and that is a fundamental problem we face in the UK not just here in Oldham and the NW but across the nation.
What were our staple industries are now gone. We are no longer the land of cotton coal and steel.
Ironically, some may feel, the Asian/Pakistani population began coming to the UK and the NW to work in the dwindling Cotton Industry, taking the low paid jobs in the late 1950's/1960's, just as most immigrants are willing to do and have done through our history.
I do think that there are lost opportunities for people to live, work and play together. An example of this is one of my loves, cricket. Club cricket is huge here, although not as big as it once was. The major teams in the major Central Lancashire League and Lancashire League teams will have Asian players in their teams but usually, its the Professional from India, Pakistan or Sri Lanka. There are not many Asian players in the clubs other than the Professionals even in the teams which are in the middle of what are now more heavily populated Asian areas (Werneth).
The Asian cricketers stick together. Mind you, this phenomenon is not new. When I played for Finchley CC in North London back in the early 1980's we often played teams made up of ethnic group players (Carribean Casuals etc). In fact, Finchley always had and still does have a fair share of players from across he ethnic groups.
But maybe all this says is that people are more comfortable amongst their own, a feeling held as much by us Brits as anyone.
My view of Oldham is that the major change over the last 75 years has been the way of life. The pubs are closing, there isn't a single Cinema in the borough now (can you believe that? You have to drive 15 minutes in Ashton) and the whole life-style which revolved around the daily rythmns (and hard grind, let's not forget) of the cotton Industry has gone.
Like many Northern towns and communities, they are struggling to establish a replacement identity now that the significant roles cast (literally in some cases) out of the Industrial Revolution have gone.
I accept that I am less likely to feel the effects of change here having lived here for 3 years. Suties' Grandmother has lived here considerably longer.
But living in a foreign country, I don't think so, having lived and worked in 3 other than the Uk, one as heavily Muslim as you could find.
There are boroughs in Bradford with nearly 100% ethnic populations
And has been since 620AD
looks like (after a quick google) Bradford is one borough...if you mean wards then maybe so; the data from the 2001 Census for Oldham gave it as 69.3% White.
Ah yes it maybe wards, but even if you are taking Bradord council district as a whole the ethnic population was over 30% in 2006 and estimated to be 50% by 2016 so I fail to see how one in Manchester with 12% is the highest in the UK?
I suspect Burnley, Leicester, Parts of Birmingham and London etc are not too far behind either
Immediately, we have to define our terms with this stuff.
The national statistics websiite shows a Muslim (see the list on this link) population in Bradford of just over 16%.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/profiles/00cx.asp
In Wikipedia, there is an estimate that the British Asian Population in Bradford is higher than that, at just over 20%.
And I have said that in certain parts of certain Boroughs, there would be much higher percentages of individual Ethnic groups (in my post, I talk about Werneth and Glodwick in Oldham).
There will be sections, areas, streets where that percentage will be much higher.
But to talk in terms of 100%? I'm wary of doing this unless such a statement is qualified.
I accept that people's perceptions of such things as population/ethnicity situations is often as important as the reality shown by the numbers, but I think that trying to add some sort of quantification to issues helps in seeing our understanding of them or our attemts at least into a more realistic perspective/context.
While working my way up the corporate ladder many years ago in a major multi national company, I worked with many managers who would not even begin to discuss issues unless I bought them some form of quantification of the problem at hand.
Walking into a meeting with a claim that 'we have a problem' was almost immediately greated by the response, 'What are the numbers'. If I didn' have any, I was sent away to find some. Did the problem affect 1, 10,100 or 1,000 of our customers? 1, 10, 100 or 1,000 of or staff?
The numbes made a fundamental difference in defining the gravity of the problem and in working out how to resolve it, if indeed any time really needed to be allocated.
By the way, an Oldham friend of mine, who now lives in Ilkley (traitor!!!) took me to a curry cafe in Bradford a few months back. I still can't stop thinking about how good the taste was ever time i get hungry.
quite a way from the 100% though. Tower Hamlets is normally cited as right up there....at 56% non-white (ONS 2006 estimate).
http://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/lgsl/901-950/916_borough_statistics/ethnicity.aspx
Muslims are not an ethnicity - the self identified white population of Bradford as a whole, including outlying villages was 69.3% in 2006.
Its estimated it will be under 50% in 2016 by the council.
Bradford, an English city will no longer have a majority English population, although it will not be the first I think Leicester will go before then.
Also quite a way above 12%
And there are many wards within Bradford which are 100% or thereabouts.
Does 56% turn it into seeming like 'living in a foreign country'?
I wonder, this white flight phenomenon, would I be right in thinking it's not as prevalent in London? Is certainly not something I've ever heard mentioned down here, even in TH.
Edit:Looks like the Daily Mail got caught out again - the cached version of their story in Google gives the title "Middle classes leading 'white flight' as 250000 quit London". The headline must have been subsequently revised, as it says the flight is across all ethnicities.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1062314/Middle-classes-leading-flight-250-000-quit-London.html
I don't think percentages pan out across districts in even distribution do they? You get whole areas of districts occupied by one ethnicity, which of course does give the impression of a foreign country.