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Amount of uncollected tax rises to £35 BILLION - 7% of all tax owed still goes unpaid

Jol44Jol44 Posts: 21,048
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Despite outrage at big firms not paying their way the amount of uncollected tax rises to £35BILLION

7% of all tax owed still goes unpaid despite years of anger about avoidance

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2454179/Amount-uncollected-tax-rises-35BILLION.html#ixzz2hSp5eJd3


So, surprise, surprise, the Tories have done nothing in chasing down unpaid tax, tax avoidance. The unpaid tax figures have actually gone up.
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    AneechikAneechik Posts: 20,208
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    This sentence is a logical fallacy.
    7% of all tax owed still goes unpaid despite years of anger about avoidance.

    How can it be owed if it's been avoided?
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 16,275
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    Aneechik wrote: »
    This sentence is a logical fallacy.



    How can it be owed if it's been avoided?

    Because it's owed and the people and companies that owe it have simply not paid it.
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    MajlisMajlis Posts: 31,362
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    Daft story to outrage the simple minded - the total percentage has been falling for years, looking at individual years is pointless as total tax take varies from year to year.
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    AneechikAneechik Posts: 20,208
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    whip wrote: »
    Because it's owed and the people and companies that owe it have simply not paid it.

    It's not owed if it's been avoided. It's only owed if it's been evaded.
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    Jol44Jol44 Posts: 21,048
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    A break down of it here:

    £35 billion in tax not collected

    "Official estimates indicated £11.4 billion of VAT, £15.3 billion of income tax, £4.7 billion in corporation tax and £2.5 billion excise duties was not collected in 2011/12.

    The HM Revenue and Customs' (HMRC) figures suggest £5.1 billion was lost to the Exchequer as a result of evasion, £4.7 billion as the result of criminal activity including fraud and smuggling and £4 billion through avoidance schemes."

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/uk/35-billion-in-tax-not-collected-29652944.html
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    Jol44Jol44 Posts: 21,048
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    The yearly amount spent on the unemployed is a tiny fraction of this figure.
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    jenziejenzie Posts: 20,821
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    every penny earned here
    should be taxed here
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    HypnodiscHypnodisc Posts: 22,728
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    Aneechik wrote: »
    It's not owed if it's been avoided. It's only owed if it's been evaded.

    Sure, technically, legally.

    But when you have people paying 1% tax or no tax at all despite living/trading in Britain it's wrong, outright wrong on every level.

    The laws need changing, the loopholes need closing and the government is the sole responsible body for this.

    If you don't want to pay British tax fine - but don't work or live here.
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    jenziejenzie Posts: 20,821
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    Hypnodisc wrote: »
    Sure, technically, legally.

    But when you have people paying 1% tax or no tax at all despite living/trading in Britain it's wrong, outright wrong on every level.

    The laws need changing, the loopholes need closing and the government is the sole responsible body for this.

    If you don't want to pay British tax fine - but don't work or live here.

    we'd have to find someone with the guts to do this though ..... know anybody?
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 16,275
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    Jol44 wrote: »
    The yearly amount spent on the unemployed is a tiny fraction of this figure.

    Yes but the unemployed can't buy politicians like the rich can.
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    David TeeDavid Tee Posts: 22,833
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    Hypnodisc wrote: »
    Sure, technically, legally.

    But when you have people paying 1% tax or no tax at all despite living/trading in Britain it's wrong, outright wrong on every level.

    The laws need changing, the loopholes need closing and the government is the sole responsible body for this.

    If you don't want to pay British tax fine - but don't work or live here.

    I agree. It's not right, companies *should* pay the tax that's intended - but the problem of avoidance is so vast and complex that's it's largely beyond our control now. These companies aren't breaking any law; quite the reverse, they're almost fastidious about operating within the law. The issue is that courtesy of trade agreements etc., those laws cross boundaries and they're able to select and choose those that serve them best. This is an international issue and any meaningful solution must address that. After many years of doing nothing about it, progress is finally being made on that front. I'm sure it'll take years - maybe even up to a decade - but one day these companies will fall in line with everyone else when it comes to paying tax.
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    Rastus PiefaceRastus Pieface Posts: 4,382
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    jenzie wrote: »
    every penny earned here
    should be taxed here

    so you want every workers tax free allowance removed - thus making the poorest earners even worse off.

    whip wrote: »
    Yes but the unemployed can't buy politicians like the rich can.

    no, but they (not all i may add) can and do vote for politicians who promise them the earth using other peoples money.
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    AftershowAftershow Posts: 10,021
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    Jol44 wrote: »
    £35 billion in tax not collected

    The HM Revenue and Customs' (HMRC) figures suggest £5.1 billion was lost to the Exchequer as a result of evasion, £4.7 billion as the result of criminal activity including fraud and smuggling and £4 billion through avoidance schemes."

    That's just shy of £13bn. Where's the rest of it gone then?
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    TheEngineerTheEngineer Posts: 7,789
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    Aftershow wrote: »
    That's just shy of £13bn. Where's the rest of it gone then?

    Probably a combination of genuine errors in reporting (which are often picked up on later), cash in hand / informal economy and losses when companies / individuals go bust owing tax / VAT.
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    swaydogswaydog Posts: 5,653
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    Hypnodisc wrote: »
    Sure, technically, legally.

    But when you have people paying 1% tax or no tax at all despite living/trading in Britain it's wrong, outright wrong on every level.

    The laws need changing, the loopholes need closing and the government is the sole responsible body for this.

    If you don't want to pay British tax fine - but don't work or live here.

    Look what happened when they tried to close the VAT avoiding loophole exploited by supermarkets chains,Gregg's, etc..

    Who was it that was opposed to it?

    Also there are some British companies that pay tax here when selling products in counties that have higher tax rates.
    Are they avoiding tax by being based here?
    Some laws and loopholes can only be closed by international agreement, so the government is not "the sole responsible body for this"
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    AftershowAftershow Posts: 10,021
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    cash in hand / informal economy

    That would fall under evasion then, no?
    losses when companies / individuals go bust owing tax / VAT.

    Good luck collecting most of that.
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    swaydogswaydog Posts: 5,653
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    Majlis wrote: »
    Daft story to outrage the simple minded - the total percentage has been falling for years, looking at individual years is pointless as total tax take varies from year to year.

    The percentage gap fell in this year too according to the link.

    "The percentage tax gap has fallen very slightly from 7.3 per cent to 7 per cent over the same period."
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,147
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    Same old story really and not surprising
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    koantemplationkoantemplation Posts: 101,293
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    Jol44 wrote: »
    Despite outrage at big firms not paying their way the amount of uncollected tax rises to £35BILLION

    7% of all tax owed still goes unpaid despite years of anger about avoidance

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2454179/Amount-uncollected-tax-rises-35BILLION.html#ixzz2hSp5eJd3


    So, surprise, surprise, the Tories have done nothing in chasing down unpaid tax, tax avoidance. The unpaid tax figures have actually gone up.

    I wonder how much of that £35b is part of the 30% the top earners are meant to be paying?
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    jcafcwjcafcw Posts: 11,282
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    Is it time for a global economic policy to deal with the the global economic marketplace?

    Can national governments ever be able to cope with people who do intend to not pay their tax?

    Do we need to simplify the tax laws to get rid of the loopholes?
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    RichievillaRichievilla Posts: 6,179
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    Yet again these figures are, by any standards, pretty appalling and show a failure of successive governments to deal with this huge problem. Although some of this (£2.9bn) is down to innocent human error, it highlights that there are many greedy, selfish individuals and companies who think that they are above the law. Just as I condemn the much smaller abuse of the benefit system, I condemn these selfish offenders although I note that some others, for whatever reasons, choose not to.

    7% is a very high figure and even a small proportion of this could make a big difference to the lives of people who really need help with things such as heating bills and care costs. The offenders should hang their heads in shame.

    For anybody that is interested, the breakdown is as follows:

    VAT - £11.4bn (10.4% tax gap)
    Excise Duties - £2.5bn (4.9% tax gap)
    IT, NIC, CGT - £15.3bn (5.8% tax gap, including a 17.4% gap in self assessment)
    Corporation Tax - £4.7bn (9.6% tax gap)
    Other Taxes - £1.1bn (4.2% tax gap, including a 12% gap in IHT)

    It is also worth noting that when these figures were initially issued last year they estimated the tax gap at 6.7% but they were revised up to 7.1%, so the 7% initial estimate figure may rise.
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    TheEngineerTheEngineer Posts: 7,789
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    Yet again these figures are, by any standards, pretty appalling and show a failure of successive governments to deal with this huge problem. Although some of this (£2.9bn) is down to innocent human error, it highlights that there are many greedy, selfish individuals and companies who think that they are above the law. Just as I condemn the much smaller abuse of the benefit system, I condemn these selfish offenders although I note that some others, for whatever reasons, choose not to.

    7% is a very high figure and even a small proportion of this could make a big difference to the lives of people who really need help with things such as heating bills and care costs. The offenders should hang their heads in shame.

    For anybody that is interested, the breakdown is as follows:

    VAT - £11.4bn (10.4% tax gap)
    Excise Duties - £2.5bn (4.9% tax gap)
    IT, NIC, CGT - £15.3bn (5.8% tax gap, including a 17.4% gap in self assessment)
    Corporation Tax - £4.7bn (9.6% tax gap)
    Other Taxes - £1.1bn (4.2% tax gap, including a 12% gap in IHT)

    It is also worth noting that when these figures were initially issued last year they estimated the tax gap at 6.7% but they were revised up to 7.1%, so the 7% initial estimate figure may rise.

    Right - I am sure "Vinnie" and his mates pulling the VAT fraud will die of shame!

    As will the four mates how go over to France in a car and come back with a boot full of **** and booze because of "rip off Britain prices".

    I am sure the small business owner who has just lost thier company will be even more distraught at the fact that not only has s/he lost their business, but should now hang their head that they cannot pay the corporation tax bill.

    Just remember the next time offers you a "cash in hand deal" that you should be ashamed to even think about accepting it.
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    LandisLandis Posts: 14,858
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    Right - I am sure "Vinnie" and his mates pulling the VAT fraud will die of shame!

    As will the four mates how go over to France in a car and come back with a boot full of **** and booze because of "rip off Britain prices".

    I am sure the small business owner who has just lost thier company will be even more distraught at the fact that not only has s/he lost their business, but should now hang their head that they cannot pay the corporation tax bill.

    Just remember the next time offers you a "cash in hand deal" that you should be ashamed to even think about accepting it.

    Would you support a policy in which Her Majesty's Inspectors of Taxes move almost 100% towards investigating the richest people in society? Everybody on modest income and not on PAYE will simply have their tax return accepted and rubber stamped.

    After all - We are constantly being told that "the actual tax take is the only thing that matters".
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    RichievillaRichievilla Posts: 6,179
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    Right - I am sure "Vinnie" and his mates pulling the VAT fraud will die of shame!

    As will the four mates how go over to France in a car and come back with a boot full of **** and booze because of "rip off Britain prices".

    I am sure the small business owner who has just lost thier company will be even more distraught at the fact that not only has s/he lost their business, but should now hang their head that they cannot pay the corporation tax bill.

    Just remember the next time offers you a "cash in hand deal" that you should be ashamed to even think about accepting it.

    Making excuses for these greedy, selfish individuals and companies, while choosing not to condemn such people, is not a position that I will ever stoop to. As I do not accept cash in hand deals then I have no need to feel any shame as, unlike some, I choose to abide by the law.
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    MajlisMajlis Posts: 31,362
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    For anybody that is interested, the breakdown is as follows:

    VAT - £11.4bn (10.4% tax gap)
    Excise Duties - £2.5bn (4.9% tax gap)
    IT, NIC, CGT - £15.3bn (5.8% tax gap, including a 17.4% gap in self assessment)
    Corporation Tax - £4.7bn (9.6% tax gap)
    Other Taxes - £1.1bn (4.2% tax gap, including a 12% gap in IHT)

    It is also worth noting that when these figures were initially issued last year they estimated the tax gap at 6.7% but they were revised up to 7.1%, so the 7% initial estimate figure may rise.

    Unless you drastically simplify the system and remove all the allowances and loopholes introduced by various governments over the years (with generally good intentions), I would doubt that no matter how much money you throw at it you will not get the level of the tax gap down significantly.

    Also you then run into international agreements - the Single Market being one, that increase the problem.
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