It's not 'nasty', really. It's one character's opinion. It's an opinion he's held, to varying extents, throughout most of the show's 50 year history. I'm sure the Doctor has made disparaging comments to/about soldiers on many occasions, usually something to do with them waving guns about, being authoritarian or generally being too quick to shoot and too slow to use diplomacy. The only Doctor who ever softened his stance on the military enough to work with them was Pertwee, and even he often condemned their methods.
All the Twelfth Doctor has actually done so far is turn away Journey Blue because she was a soldier. That's not that harsh, he's sure;y allowed to choose who he travels with, especially considering that Journey Blue had already threatened him with a gun and displayed a very trigger-happy attitude throughout the episode. Also, she was part of a military unit that unashamedly killed any strangers they encountered, just in case they were spies. I wouldn't want someone like that travelling with me either.
He is anti-soldier, but IMO that is a perfectly valid stance for him to have. He is a pacifist after all, and has a reputation for being inflexible in his moral judgements, to the point of being patronising. So being a little judgemental about soldiers isn't a surprising quality for him. Is this country's patriotism really stoked so high that it is now offensive for one character on a TV show to have a negative opinion of the military?
I have a feeling that next week's episode is going to cause some controversy, but please remember that it is ok for another person to have a political opinion that differs from your own, especially when that person is a fictional character.
I remember the Tenth Doctor's anti soldier attitude really getting on my nerves and it looks like Twelve is going to be even more grating with it. I think it's really disappointing because Twelve is showing to be a great, fascinating Doctor otherwise. I suppose I just see no need for how far the writers take the Doctor's dislike of soldiers, and I have always wondered - even more so after Into the Dalek - if it's not the writers using the Doctor as a voice piece for their own opinions.
I agree with this. The 10th Doctor carrying on about soldiers was really irritating and ridiculous (and I say this despite the 10th Doctor being my favorite new Who Doctor) and I'm sorry to see the 12th Doctor carrying on the same way. I think it does detract from his character and also smacks of hypocrisy because many soldiers have undoubtedly died saving the Doctor or his companions from one danger or another. Not to mention the Doctor having worked for UNIT and generally having had good relations with the Brigadier, Benton and Yates.
Also, I do think RTD and Moffat probably have anti-military and anti-gun sentiments as many in the entertainment industry do and that's coming through in the show. In addition, I think having the 12th Doctor carrying on about soldiers is so that there can be a big blowup between him and Danny and therefore having some more soap opera elements in the show as Clara is forced to choose between the two men in her life.
Regarding next week's episode and the Doctor apparently being very rude to Danny about being a soldier, I think the show needs to be careful not to portray the 12th Doctor as a rude jerk. Certainly I would have thought the show would have learned its lesson from the 6th Doctor regularly coming in last in "favorite Doctor" polls and I think it's safe to say that most fans really don't want an unpleasant Doctor.
So it's a programme with two top-billed actors, one of whom portrays a character that dislikes soldiers and the other portrays a character that seems set to marry a soldier. It also appears very slowly to be adding depth to the character of a perfectly likeable ex-soldier.
Is this a case of hearing only half of what's being said?
The Doctor has just spent 900 years fighting off soldiers who came from all across the universe to level a small town - of course he's going to have issues. The Doctor has never been particularly fond of soldiers (Though the Brig was one of his oldest friends), however 9, 10 and 11's particular issues with them stemmed from what he (thought he) did in the time war, He hates and fears himself.
I think the Dynamic between the Doctor and Danny is going interesting, They both have issues of guilt and self-loathing from their soldier days and I think we'll see them help each other come to terms with that.
It makes sense to me that after his experience at Trenzalore, and after finally facing up to his actions in the Time War, he would have this irrational distain for soldiers. He's always had a dislike for anyone blindly following orders. And this Doctor isn't nearly as cutesy and fluffy as his previous incarnations. I quite like it about him. Mind you there isn't really anything I dislike about Capaldi's doctor at the moment.
I agree with this. The 10th Doctor carrying on about soldiers was really irritating and ridiculous (and I say this despite the 10th Doctor being my favorite new Who Doctor) and I'm sorry to see the 12th Doctor carrying on the same way. I think it does detract from his character and also smacks of hypocrisy because many soldiers have undoubtedly died saving the Doctor or his companions from one danger or another. Not to mention the Doctor having worked for UNIT and generally having had good relations with the Brigadier, Benton and Yates.
I did find the anti-soldier attitude of the Doctor in that episode quite distasteful. Considering these particular soldiers had no choice but to the fight the Daleks for the survival of their race his unwillingness to travel with somebody who would, to most people, be considered a hero strikes a bad note.
I know that he has always had a problem with the military attitude of shoot first, ask questions later and prefers to find peaceful solutions where soldiers tend to only see the violent solutions but, over the years, he has been pretty violent himself! Destroying an entire Cyberman fleet single-handedly at one point, as I recall.
He has had soldiers/warriors as companions before. Apart from UNIT there was Leela, a primitive warrior. He may have had issues with Leela's methods but he cared for her a great deal, all the same.
Having said that, I don't think that the "soldiers are bad" message is what the production team/writers are going for. It's clear that Clara doesn't agree with him and, with Danny being an ex-soldier the issue is definitely going to come to a head at some point and I fully expect the Doctor's attitude on the subject to be challenged.
The fact that he has the attitude at all, though, seems a bit of a shame...
I have a feeling that next week's episode is going to cause some controversy, but please remember that it is ok for another person to have a political opinion that differs from your own, especially when that person is a fictional character.
Yes, perhaps, but it depends on the fictional character and what is actually said. I've got family members in the armed forces. My sister was in Afghanistan and Iraq and, like a lot of people, many of my ancestors have been in the armed forces (e.g. in the East India Company, the Dutch East India Company, the Indian Army, the British Army, etc.).
As I said, it depends on the nature of the remarks, but I think Moffat is on thin ice going down this particular route.
I did find the anti-soldier attitude of the Doctor in that episode quite distasteful. Considering these particular soldiers had no choice but to the fight the Daleks for the survival of their race his unwillingness to travel with somebody who would, to most people, be considered a hero strikes a bad note.
I know that he has always had a problem with the military attitude of shoot first, ask questions later and prefers to find peaceful solutions where soldiers tend to only see the violent solutions but, over the years, he has been pretty violent himself! Destroying an entire Cyberman fleet single-handedly at one point, as I recall.
He has had soldiers/warriors as companions before. Apart from UNIT there was Leela, a primitive warrior. He may have had issues with Leela's methods but he cared for her a great deal, all the same.
Having said that, I don't think that the "soldiers are bad" message is what the production team/writers are going for. It's clear that Clara doesn't agree with him and, with Danny being an ex-soldier the issue is definitely going to come to a head at some point and I fully expect the Doctor's attitude on the subject to be challenged.
The fact that he has the attitude at all, though, seems a bit of a shame...
Indeed. It makes his 'anti-soldier' bigotry even more ludicrous. The soldiers in 'Into the Dalek' were trying to fight, you know, the Daleks, as he has done countless times. So there was no reason for his snide remarks.
I did find the anti-soldier attitude of the Doctor in that episode quite distasteful. Considering these particular soldiers had no choice but to the fight the Daleks for the survival of their race his unwillingness to travel with somebody who would, to most people, be considered a hero strikes a bad note.
I know that he has always had a problem with the military attitude of shoot first, ask questions later and prefers to find peaceful solutions where soldiers tend to only see the violent solutions but, over the years, he has been pretty violent himself! Destroying an entire Cyberman fleet single-handedly at one point, as I recall.
He has had soldiers/warriors as companions before. Apart from UNIT there was Leela, a primitive warrior. He may have had issues with Leela's methods but he cared for her a great deal, all the same.
Having said that, I don't think that the "soldiers are bad" message is what the production team/writers are going for. It's clear that Clara doesn't agree with him and, with Danny being an ex-soldier the issue is definitely going to come to a head at some point and I fully expect the Doctor's attitude on the subject to be challenged.
The fact that he has the attitude at all, though, seems a bit of a shame...
Distasteful? That he has an ethical code that excludes involvement in warfare? That he takes a dim view of what is, however much you dress it up, a profession that involves killing a lot of people? It's an 'attitude' that a lot of people share, I'm sorry, since most modern conflicts kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civillians. See my comments above: you can disagree with the anti-soldier attitude all you like, but it is hardly distasteful. Everyone has a right to an opinion on something like this, and to get offended that a fictional character disagrees with you is absurd.
If the Doctor was praising soldiers, and was suddenly pro-soldier, would we be seeing so many complaints? I doubt it. Some fans may complain that it was out of character, but no-one would be calling it distasteful. Both stances (anti-military and pro-military) are valid and niether should be treated as taboo. It's not even as if the Doctor has talked about how much he hates soldiers and disapproves of what they do. All this outrage has been generated purely by him refusing to let a soldier become a companion. Over-reaction perhaps?
I find myself looking forward to next weeks episode to be honest. I don't entirely agree with the Doctor's stance on this -- I recognise and respect that soldiers do heroic things as well as violent things, and that many soldiers fight because genuinely believe that the wars they are involved in are just, even though I disagree ( I believe that most wars are started to pursue the interests of the political elite, and that war should always be an absolute last resort) -- But I will be glad to see the show break the mainstream media taboo on saying anything negative about soldiers or the military. Its as though wholehearted unquestioning support for war is mandatory, and dissaproving of killing is somehow wrong.
Indeed. It makes his 'anti-soldier' bigotry even more ludicrous. The soldiers in 'Into the Dalek' were trying to fight, you know, the Daleks, as he has done countless times. So there was no reason for his snide remarks.
Wouldn't you be a bit peeved if you'd saved one of them and they were still going to follow "procedure" and kill you anyway?
Distasteful? That he has an ethical code that excludes involvement in warfare? That he takes a dim view of what is, however much you dress it up, killing profession that involves killing people?
Indeed. It makes his 'anti-soldier' bigotry even more ludicrous. The soldiers in 'Into the Dalek' were trying to fight, you know, the Daleks, as he has done countless times. So there was no reason for his snide remarks.
The ywere also killing all other humans they encountered, just in case any of them were dalek spies.
Possibly. Unfortunately the Doctor's attitude towards warfare, killing and soldiery has turned into garbled ****.
Maybe his views changed over the preceding 900 years and one rather explosive regeneration..
My own view is we are discussing a deliberate character development that is yet to be resolved - Maybe that will be Danny's arc - To help the Doctor come to terms with Trenzalore.
The 'anti solider' thing has been around for a while in New Who. But perhaps not so much in Classic Who.
Back then, the Doctor tended to have an aversion to carrying a gun himself, but didn't seem to mind aligning himself with UNIT when it suited him. Indeed, he became a full paid-up 'scientific advisor' for his entire third incarnation (and a bit of his fourth too).
And in those days he never complained about being surrounded by soldiers who often sacrificed their lives to protect the Doctor and his companion. Indeed, some of those very soldiers even travelled with the Doctor in the TARDIS and are considered, by many, to be 'companions'.
In New Who, the anti-solider rhetoric increased somewhat. I am sure the 9th Doctor is less than friendly to the new UNIT team in Aliens of London/World War Three. And the 10th Doctor is positively rude about the UNIT soldiers in The Sontaran Stratagem/The Poison Sky. I wouldn't be surprised if someone can point to similar during the 11th Doctor's time.
Quite. And in the 50th, the 11th Doctor seemed to suggest to Clara that being UNIT's scientific advisor was still his job. Certainly his fondness for the Brigadier remained undimmed. It's also worth remembering that the Third Doctor suggested he was on affable terms with Napoleon - though he didn't specify during which incarnation.
One suspects that the perceived anti-soldier theme is something specific to this series, which will be paid off. But I do have some sympathy with the OP. I found RTD's endless digs against the Royal Family tiresome. I'm an unashamed monarchist, but I respect republicans' beliefs. And had those repeated digs had some kind of pay-off, it would have been more understandable. As it was, it just came across as childish name-calling.
I'm not sure what you're asking me, sorry. If you mean 'since when has he had this opinion?' I think he always has.
Got me thinking, now. The third could be very disparaging, particularly in his early years, even though he was working for them. The 'UNIT family' wasn't always particularly cosy. Certainly wasn't when Tom came along. And I do recall the Seventh making a few disparaging comments about "the military mind." Sure there are other examples scattered about in the programme's history.
The Eleventh seemed immediately fond of Kate, but I guess that was partly because of her attitude and the family connection.
I do agree with above comments that the Tenth acted like a bit of a, um, div in the Sontaran two parter.
Interesting subject. Shame the OP hasn't returned yet; probably put off by some unnecessary sarciness?
Serious question - what's wrong with the Doctor being "anti-soldier"?
(For the record, I don't believe any such thing has happened any more than him being "anti-wine" or "anti-beans" and we're less than half-way through the series so it's way too early to know what quips can be taken seriously or literally)
Serious question - what's wrong with the Doctor being "anti-soldier"?
(For the record, I don't believe any such thing has happened any more than him being "anti-wine" or "anti-beans" and we're less than half-way through the series so it's way too early to know what quips can be taken seriously or literally)
That it's from nowhere
That the Doctor worked with UNIT
That him and the Brig are friends
That the Doctor always gives people a chance and not be against them just on the basis of their job
Comments
All the Twelfth Doctor has actually done so far is turn away Journey Blue because she was a soldier. That's not that harsh, he's sure;y allowed to choose who he travels with, especially considering that Journey Blue had already threatened him with a gun and displayed a very trigger-happy attitude throughout the episode. Also, she was part of a military unit that unashamedly killed any strangers they encountered, just in case they were spies. I wouldn't want someone like that travelling with me either.
He is anti-soldier, but IMO that is a perfectly valid stance for him to have. He is a pacifist after all, and has a reputation for being inflexible in his moral judgements, to the point of being patronising. So being a little judgemental about soldiers isn't a surprising quality for him. Is this country's patriotism really stoked so high that it is now offensive for one character on a TV show to have a negative opinion of the military?
I have a feeling that next week's episode is going to cause some controversy, but please remember that it is ok for another person to have a political opinion that differs from your own, especially when that person is a fictional character.
I agree with this. The 10th Doctor carrying on about soldiers was really irritating and ridiculous (and I say this despite the 10th Doctor being my favorite new Who Doctor) and I'm sorry to see the 12th Doctor carrying on the same way. I think it does detract from his character and also smacks of hypocrisy because many soldiers have undoubtedly died saving the Doctor or his companions from one danger or another. Not to mention the Doctor having worked for UNIT and generally having had good relations with the Brigadier, Benton and Yates.
Also, I do think RTD and Moffat probably have anti-military and anti-gun sentiments as many in the entertainment industry do and that's coming through in the show. In addition, I think having the 12th Doctor carrying on about soldiers is so that there can be a big blowup between him and Danny and therefore having some more soap opera elements in the show as Clara is forced to choose between the two men in her life.
Is this a case of hearing only half of what's being said?
I think the Dynamic between the Doctor and Danny is going interesting, They both have issues of guilt and self-loathing from their soldier days and I think we'll see them help each other come to terms with that.
I did find the anti-soldier attitude of the Doctor in that episode quite distasteful. Considering these particular soldiers had no choice but to the fight the Daleks for the survival of their race his unwillingness to travel with somebody who would, to most people, be considered a hero strikes a bad note.
I know that he has always had a problem with the military attitude of shoot first, ask questions later and prefers to find peaceful solutions where soldiers tend to only see the violent solutions but, over the years, he has been pretty violent himself! Destroying an entire Cyberman fleet single-handedly at one point, as I recall.
He has had soldiers/warriors as companions before. Apart from UNIT there was Leela, a primitive warrior. He may have had issues with Leela's methods but he cared for her a great deal, all the same.
Having said that, I don't think that the "soldiers are bad" message is what the production team/writers are going for. It's clear that Clara doesn't agree with him and, with Danny being an ex-soldier the issue is definitely going to come to a head at some point and I fully expect the Doctor's attitude on the subject to be challenged.
The fact that he has the attitude at all, though, seems a bit of a shame...
We were all young and foolish once.
Only once?
Yes, perhaps, but it depends on the fictional character and what is actually said. I've got family members in the armed forces. My sister was in Afghanistan and Iraq and, like a lot of people, many of my ancestors have been in the armed forces (e.g. in the East India Company, the Dutch East India Company, the Indian Army, the British Army, etc.).
As I said, it depends on the nature of the remarks, but I think Moffat is on thin ice going down this particular route.
Indeed. It makes his 'anti-soldier' bigotry even more ludicrous. The soldiers in 'Into the Dalek' were trying to fight, you know, the Daleks, as he has done countless times. So there was no reason for his snide remarks.
Discounting the Gallifreyans among us.
Distasteful? That he has an ethical code that excludes involvement in warfare? That he takes a dim view of what is, however much you dress it up, a profession that involves killing a lot of people? It's an 'attitude' that a lot of people share, I'm sorry, since most modern conflicts kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civillians. See my comments above: you can disagree with the anti-soldier attitude all you like, but it is hardly distasteful. Everyone has a right to an opinion on something like this, and to get offended that a fictional character disagrees with you is absurd.
If the Doctor was praising soldiers, and was suddenly pro-soldier, would we be seeing so many complaints? I doubt it. Some fans may complain that it was out of character, but no-one would be calling it distasteful. Both stances (anti-military and pro-military) are valid and niether should be treated as taboo. It's not even as if the Doctor has talked about how much he hates soldiers and disapproves of what they do. All this outrage has been generated purely by him refusing to let a soldier become a companion. Over-reaction perhaps?
I find myself looking forward to next weeks episode to be honest. I don't entirely agree with the Doctor's stance on this -- I recognise and respect that soldiers do heroic things as well as violent things, and that many soldiers fight because genuinely believe that the wars they are involved in are just, even though I disagree ( I believe that most wars are started to pursue the interests of the political elite, and that war should always be an absolute last resort) -- But I will be glad to see the show break the mainstream media taboo on saying anything negative about soldiers or the military. Its as though wholehearted unquestioning support for war is mandatory, and dissaproving of killing is somehow wrong.
Wouldn't you be a bit peeved if you'd saved one of them and they were still going to follow "procedure" and kill you anyway?
Since when?
Possibly. Unfortunately the Doctor's attitude towards warfare, killing and soldiery has turned into garbled ****.
The ywere also killing all other humans they encountered, just in case any of them were dalek spies.
I'm not sure what you're asking me, sorry. If you mean 'since when has he had this opinion?' I think he always has.
Maybe his views changed over the preceding 900 years and one rather explosive regeneration..
My own view is we are discussing a deliberate character development that is yet to be resolved - Maybe that will be Danny's arc - To help the Doctor come to terms with Trenzalore.
Quite. And in the 50th, the 11th Doctor seemed to suggest to Clara that being UNIT's scientific advisor was still his job. Certainly his fondness for the Brigadier remained undimmed. It's also worth remembering that the Third Doctor suggested he was on affable terms with Napoleon - though he didn't specify during which incarnation.
One suspects that the perceived anti-soldier theme is something specific to this series, which will be paid off. But I do have some sympathy with the OP. I found RTD's endless digs against the Royal Family tiresome. I'm an unashamed monarchist, but I respect republicans' beliefs. And had those repeated digs had some kind of pay-off, it would have been more understandable. As it was, it just came across as childish name-calling.
Got me thinking, now. The third could be very disparaging, particularly in his early years, even though he was working for them. The 'UNIT family' wasn't always particularly cosy. Certainly wasn't when Tom came along. And I do recall the Seventh making a few disparaging comments about "the military mind." Sure there are other examples scattered about in the programme's history.
The Eleventh seemed immediately fond of Kate, but I guess that was partly because of her attitude and the family connection.
I do agree with above comments that the Tenth acted like a bit of a, um, div in the Sontaran two parter.
Interesting subject. Shame the OP hasn't returned yet; probably put off by some unnecessary sarciness?
(For the record, I don't believe any such thing has happened any more than him being "anti-wine" or "anti-beans" and we're less than half-way through the series so it's way too early to know what quips can be taken seriously or literally)
That it's from nowhere
That the Doctor worked with UNIT
That him and the Brig are friends
That the Doctor always gives people a chance and not be against them just on the basis of their job