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BBC1 HD - why not 'first choice' on my Sky planner when BBC 2 is?
jerseyporter
Posts: 2,332 Forum Member
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I apologise if this has already been asked/covered - I tried searching for relevant threads, but no joy (although after a long day at work, and now doing 'the mum thing' at home I may not have looked in the right place 
).
The question is this: we've just got a Sky HD box, having been 'forced' to upgrade our standard one after it stopped working (Freeview is almost non-existent in Jersey because the French have already got most of the digital bands - or whatever the technical term is - that UK Freeview uses, so it's Sky or nothing!) and have noticed that most channels that provide an HD equivalent have automatically moved to their SD's equivalents' places on the planner, which is very helpful.
However, although BBC2 HD has automatically moved to number 102 on the Sky planner, BBC1 HD has remained down at number 141 with BBC1 in SD remaining at 101.
Does anyone know how to make BBC1 HD move up to replace its SD equivalent as BBC2 had done all by itself?
Please be aware that I'm really thick when it comes to the shorthand and vocabulary that goes with this kind of thing - I've read some threads in the broadcasting section that are full of 'advice' and not understood a word! If anyone can explain can they please do it in really simple language that a technological idiot from Mars could understand?! (I do apologise!)
If it's to do with living in Jersey, and some sort of issue with that coupled with BBC rules and regulations, then obviously it's something I'll just have to live with, annoying though that may be. However, it's odd that all of the other BBC channels that are available in HD have automatically moved up to the 'prime' slots in the Sky planner (as previous mentioned, BBC2 moved up to 102 immediately) but BBC1 hasn't.
If there's a solution I'd love to swap the BBC1 HD and SD around because it's really annoying to have to remember to look everything up 140 numbers down for BBC1, but have them all right there at 102 for BBC2. If there's not solution then fine - we'll cope. I just thought it was worth asking here, as usually someone has the answer... even if they express it in words I don't understand ... so if there is an answer please keep it words of one syllable a technological idiot can understand!
Oh dear, I know I'm going to be mocked mercilessly now by thread regulars who are wondering how any 46 year old woman can get to 2014 without knowing the answers to these things!
).The question is this: we've just got a Sky HD box, having been 'forced' to upgrade our standard one after it stopped working (Freeview is almost non-existent in Jersey because the French have already got most of the digital bands - or whatever the technical term is - that UK Freeview uses, so it's Sky or nothing!) and have noticed that most channels that provide an HD equivalent have automatically moved to their SD's equivalents' places on the planner, which is very helpful.
However, although BBC2 HD has automatically moved to number 102 on the Sky planner, BBC1 HD has remained down at number 141 with BBC1 in SD remaining at 101.
Does anyone know how to make BBC1 HD move up to replace its SD equivalent as BBC2 had done all by itself?
Please be aware that I'm really thick when it comes to the shorthand and vocabulary that goes with this kind of thing - I've read some threads in the broadcasting section that are full of 'advice' and not understood a word! If anyone can explain can they please do it in really simple language that a technological idiot from Mars could understand?! (I do apologise!)
If it's to do with living in Jersey, and some sort of issue with that coupled with BBC rules and regulations, then obviously it's something I'll just have to live with, annoying though that may be. However, it's odd that all of the other BBC channels that are available in HD have automatically moved up to the 'prime' slots in the Sky planner (as previous mentioned, BBC2 moved up to 102 immediately) but BBC1 hasn't.
If there's a solution I'd love to swap the BBC1 HD and SD around because it's really annoying to have to remember to look everything up 140 numbers down for BBC1, but have them all right there at 102 for BBC2. If there's not solution then fine - we'll cope. I just thought it was worth asking here, as usually someone has the answer... even if they express it in words I don't understand
... so if there is an answer please keep it words of one syllable a technological idiot can understand!Oh dear, I know I'm going to be mocked mercilessly now by thread regulars who are wondering how any 46 year old woman can get to 2014 without knowing the answers to these things!
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Comments
If an HD channel shows exactly the same programmes (including regional programmes) as the SD version it is eligible to swap channel numbers on Sky HD.
BBC Two: Sky HD channels 102/142
BBC Two England is the same as BBC Two HD, so the HD channel has swapped places and is now on 102. (There's no separate BBC Two for the Channel Islands)
BBC One: Sky HD channels 101/141
BBC One Channel Islands is not the same as BBC One HD - BBC Channel Islands is not available on BBC One HD, so a swap is not allowed.
It's not allowed because it would contravene the Communications Act 2003, which orders digital TV operators to put the relevant regional versions of the main five channels on channels 1-5 (or 101-105).
That's why you have BBC One Channel Islands (SD) on 101 and BBC Two HD on 102.
Bloomin annoying though.
This should explain it:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/aboutthebbc/posts/CBBC-HD-CBeebies-HD-BBC-Three-HD-BBC-Four-HD-and-BBC-News-HD-to-launch-on-Tuesday-10-December-2013
Hopefully the BBC will do the English regions (including the Channel Islands) of BBC 1 HD this year!
They will be asking the BBC Trust for approval this month:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/our_work/services/television/service_approvals/network_hd.html
Once they do start they will be able to swap each region that has been done!
Not if you dont have the HD pack then you get the SD versions on their original channel numbers even with a HD box!
Because its either all channels swap or none. If you dont have the HD pack but they swap then you won't be able to watch the first 20 odd channels as they won't be in your package.
Or move to NI/Wales/Scotland to get BBC One HD on 101. You'd lose BBC Two HD on 102 though. Maybe you should switch to Freeview, they're always 101/102 on there...
When Sky finally get rid of their SD only boxes, I can see the BBC doing a permanent swap, so that they do swap on everyone's Sky boxes, as they would all be HD enabled!
When sky replace the 2 million sd boxes seems a good time to stop sd emission. ..
Thats not what I meant, of course the regional content has to be at the right places!
Im thinking that if all Sky boxes that work are HD (as I can see Sky making the SD boxes stop working if they swap them all out), then the BBC would want to make any swaps that they currently have, like BBC 3, 4, News, Kids ect permanent.
So you wouldnt need the HD pack for them to be in the higher places on the EPG!
Obviously the BBC would only swap BBC 1 and 2 in places they have the correct region in HD, just like now, the only difference being that it wont matter if you have the HD swap or not!
I agree! Then we can all get on with HD only emission for the BBC at least. It would also mean that they would only need 7 transponders too, to have all their output in HD only on Dsat.
ITV/Channel 4 would probably like to do the same with their channels
I think the BBC is indemnifying the EPG operators for what it is doing so far.
My after looking up the word indemnifying, I cant see what future loss of the EPG operators that the BBC is protecting against?
Is it really worth it for what is usually for my local station anyway — trivia parochial news of little importance about some wannabe playwright, singer, sportsman or something about a local cats home. The only interesting items of any importance are usually in the first 3 minutes.
For the convenience of having BBCHD on 101 for 99% of broadcasting time and the ability to watch regional crud on some other obscure channel number is a no-brainer for me.
The powers that be obviously think otherwise, so we must have regional antiquated SD on 101 until regional goes HD and that will not improve the content anyway
Enforcement action by OFCOM because they are in breach of either their own Codes of Practise for the operation of EPGS or the Broadcasting Act itself.
There may also be costs if OFT get involved- which is out of OFCOMS hands!
It is a finely balanced argument my lawyers friends tell me..
( and involves how the section of the Act treats the legacy analogue PSB and the BBC differently.)
(Remember what happened when Breakfast TV started - because TV sets which did not have locking buttons would start up on Electronic button One which was the BBC one Breakfast and thus an abuse of their market power!!!! )
I cant see the government or OFCOM caring about HD swapping as long as the correct regional content is shown though? In fact wouldnt it fit the idea of DSO part 2 in moving people forward ready for DVB-T1 and S1 switch off?
Also OFCOM seem to water down PSB regulations where is suits all parties ect, so I can see the Comms Act being re-interpreted or changed anyway!
I didnt know about this, but I suppose you could say its slightly before my time.:D
I see what your saying though an auto switch to the BBC on startup was not in the other broadcasters interests!
the Law is the Law ..
and there are many ways that someone could point out that someone was not doing something to enforce it etc ...
The 2003 ACT is well past its sell by date not only in Broadcasting -
But by the time a new Bill is tabled there may be some clarity of other things (Telco as well as Broadcasting)so we get a more future Proof Act - for instance looking at Discovery / Recommendations / Search in EPGs and the 700MHZ/T2/AVC migration.
The BBC has all sorts of Market dominance complaints (I would say more like fantasies) to deal with! and the OFT Has some funny views as well- think Kangaroos!
Let us just be very glad that the BBC is pushing T2/AVC forward in a persuasive way.
So Im just thinking that in 2018 or whenever DVB-T2 and S2 with AVC become the transmission standard, if the BBC then dropped their SD channels, would they in theory be in breach of the 2003 Comms Act, even if all their current channels and regional channels were there in HD, as the SD ones are currently?
particularly with the others PSB channel HD versions of their SD (which will not exist) ...
But we really DO need a new Comms Act !!!
(if only to save me from the lawyers!)
Second, this is the definition of public service channel:-
(4)Subject to subsection (5), in subsection (2) the reference to the public service channels is a reference to any of the following—
.
(a)any service of television programmes provided by the BBC in digital form so as to be available for reception by members of the public;
.
(b)any Channel 3 service in digital form;
.
(c)Channel 4 in digital form;
.
(d)Channel 5 in digital form;
.
(e)S4C Digital;
.
(f)the digital public teletext service.
.
Note there is no reference to SD or HD. Accordingly it is a reasonable interpretation that BBC One HD is as much a public service channel as BBC One SD.
The problem arises because of the further requirement in subsection (2) as to intended audience:-
(2)The practices required by the code must include the giving, in the manner provided for in the code, of such degree of prominence as OFCOM consider appropriate to—
.
(a)the listing or promotion, or both the listing and promotion, for members of its intended audience, of the programmes included in each public service channel; and
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(b)the facilities, in the case of each such channel, for members of its intended audience to select or access the programmes included in it.
It is this subsection which causes the problem so far as BBC One HD is concerned - for the English regions anyway. Using my own region as an example quite clearly under the act BBC One NE&C takes precedence over BBC One HD because in this area the regional service is the one intended for the audience here so far as BBC One is concerned. However, if there was a BBC One NE&C HD there would be no difficulty with the HD swap being applied as both BBC One NE&C and BBC One NE&C HD would be identical in all material senses.
One caveat - the BBC could not itself place BBC One NE&C HD at 101 because not all Sky boxes are HD. If they did so then those with non HD boxes would not be able to access 101 and would be left with watching the SD BBC One NE&C on 141. The only way to fully comply with the Act currently is utilising the HD swap so that viewers with HD boxes would get BBC One NE&C HD at 101 and those with non HD boxes would get BBC One NE&C SD at 101 (at the moment in the case of HD boxes assuming they also have a Sky HD sub). In any event the net result is that everyone would get BBC One NE&C (whether the HD or SD service is irrelevant) at 101.
That is why the BBC have been able to swap BBC Two HD in England and BBC One HD in the nations plus BBC Three/Four etc. Effectively everyone receives either the SD or HD service (and which are all completely identical to each other) in the relevant slot. As soon as BBC One English regions and BBC Two National regions are available in HD the same will apply in those cases.
It is all about interpretation but I have little doubt that the legal advice that the BBC have been given by their legal department will be as above. The indemnity is purely an a**e covering measure because most laws are open to interpretation but I have little doubt that the view is that there is little chance of OFCOM or anyone else taking issue with what they have done to date.
The same argument holds true for UTV HD (subject to the HD swap point applying) and would similarly apply to ITV Granada, Central West, London and Meridian SE. It might also arguably apply to Channel 4 and Channel 5 - although the argument about them having regional ads is often raised the Act refers specifically to to "programmes" so I believe the decision there is more a commercial one for the channels but that there would be no reason why they could not utilise the HD swap if they wanted to.
To repeat though currently the public service channels can only place their HD channels in place of their SD channels utilising the swap facility so long as SD only boxes remain in use (unless the swap system could be applied to SD boxes rather than as now to HD boxes).
That is my legal interpretation of the position and opinion.
Ah so if the Com PSB's shut down their SD channels at 'DSO part 2', then even though they might have their output in HD, as it was in SD on 3-5 or 103-105, they would be in breach of the Comms Act 2003?
I suppose as all BBC channels are PSB anyway they will get away with it!
I suppose there needs to be an amendment to the 2003 Act ASAP, that say that any resolution of a PSB channel that exists has the PSB status, which would then include all the Com PSBs!
I wonder how much it would take to pass that?
Then any other act could be passed at a later date when they are ready Im thinking?
If ITV, Channel or Channel 5 only broadcast in HD they could legitimately place those channels at 103 to 105 on Sky and be entirely compliant with the Act.