Get real! People lead busy lives and they couldn't can't pop down to the nearest college to learn a foreign language just like that and I doubt very much the courses were on offer from the late 40's to early 70's for them to learn anyway!
Asian people often relied on their kids to speak for them as they grew up though, thats the way it was and most of the older asian people, if they can't speak fluent english now are not going to try and learn now, no matter how much Governments/media/press and people try and move the goal posts on this and demand it from them!
Britons really lead the way in speaking fluent spanish when they move out there don't they? !
That's always trotted out as some kind of justification for immigrants to this country not learning English.
People living in Spain should learn Spanish.
You don't need to go on a course to learn English. I'm sure a desire to learn and some trips to the library would go a long way. No one is saying that they need to get a degree, they just need to be able to communicate.
Apart from anything else, people need to make sure they are not being ripped off or taken advantage of.
I also think it is unfair to expect children to take responsibility for making sure that their parents are up to speed with everything.
Try saying to a ten-year-old "can you tell your mum that the bank is going to repossess your home" (I've had to do that) and then say that it's ok for the children to do all the translating.
That's always trotted out as some kind of justification for immigrants to this country not learning English.
People living in Spain should learn Spanish.
You don't need to go on a course to learn English. I'm sure a desire to learn and some trips to the library would go a long way. No one is saying that they need to get a degree, they just need to be able to communicate.
Apart from anything else, people need to make sure they are not being ripped off or taken advantage of.
I also think it is unfair to expect children to take responsibility for making sure that their parents are up to speed with everything.
Try saying to a ten-year-old "can you tell your mum that the bank is going to repossess your home" (I've had to do that) and then say that it's ok for the children to do all the translating.
Re bib: But they don't and when does anyone in the political/media/press world get on their case for being so hypocritical because many of them moan about immigrants to the UK not "integrating", citing that as a reason for wanting to leave for Spain!
They then they do the same as what they accuse immigrants here of not doing and don't integrate themselves with the Spanish! >:(
Most recent immigrants do speak english but I've noticed people still try and claim they still can't speak english because they don't like their foreign accents! >:( >:( >:(
Oh so one rule for immigrant coming here but another for Brits when they become immigrants?! >:(
Most recent immigrants do speak english but I've noticed peope still try and claim they still can't speak english because they don't like their foreign accents! >:( >:( >:(
Re-read my post and I think you will find that I said the exact opposite.
overseas visitors who fall ill 100% understand they might not speak English or have poor grasp. But the NHS is spending around 33 million on Translators just look when you go into a hospital all the different signs those are not for overseas visitors.
His comments on people living here 50 years and still not speaking English are correct we've seen it in the hospitals over and over and it makes it impossible unless someone on staff speaks the language of the patient its either getting a Family member to be there almost constant (which rarely happens) so then its upto translators to speak for the patient with the doctors or when having a test etc)
Its the number one cause of people's concerns this isn't integration this is just wanting to carry on as before in another country but not accepting that fact it is another country and learning English goes along with that. The age old excuse of a person's age is stopping them when a lot of these people have lived in the uk 30+ years.
Little thing like this would not only help staff save loads of money but also stop the more extreme elements in politics using this as ammunition
Re-read my post and I think you will find that I said the exact opposite.
I also didn't mention anything about accents.
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of those who leave to Spain and why they do.
The bottom line is the British Governments over the years keep on changing the goal posts! They did NOT put requirements on learning english to the first generations but they have been moaning about it bigtime since the turn of this century at the very least!
I'd say to them, get your requirements sorted out in the first place instead of having one rule in the late 40's onwards and then 60-70 years later start moaning your heads off because of the lack of requirement previous governments put on!
I think most of the first generations either would not have come to the UK or not have hung around for long if they knew how much the goal posts where going to be moved around so much on immigration! Immigration laws have been changed over and over again in every decade from the 1960's onwards and I can't wait for the time where the most of the developing world is developed and hardly any immigrants come to the west and then the west starts crying out for them.....AGAIN!!!!
I saw a news report on saturday where they said that Portugal is facing labour shortages in the not too distant future becuase they do not have enough of their own young people to replace the older generations that are retireing.
This will happen Europe wide soon as the baby boom generation (the biggest alive today in the west) started to retire as of 2011 and i am intending to do a thread on this.
Get real! People lead busy lives and they couldn't can't pop down to the nearest college to learn a foreign language just like that and I doubt very much the courses were on offer from the late 40's to early 70's for them to learn anyway!
Asian people often relied on their kids to speak for them as they grew up though, thats the way it was and most of the older asian people, if they can't speak fluent english now are not going to try and learn now, no matter how much Governments/media/press and people try and move the goal posts on this and demand it from them!
Britons really lead the way in speaking fluent spanish when they move out there don't they?!
Like it or not most countries on Earth have English as their 2rd language.
So it is easier on the English speakers of the world, but saying that they should try to learn the language of were they move to.
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of those who leave to Spain and why they do.
T
No hypocrisy there, it is the people who do not leave for Spain that are doing the complaining. Perhaps the Spanish are complaining and if they are that is their right. It seems that most of the Brits who leave for Spain take their pensions with them. Money talks quite loudly and excuses many sins.
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of those who leave to Spain and why they do.
The bottom line is the British Governments over the years keep on changing the goal posts! They did NOT put requirements on learning english to the first generations but they have been moaning about it bigtime since the turn of this century at the very least!
I'd say to them, get your requirements sorted out in the first place instead of having one rule in the late 40's onwards and then 60-70 years later start moaning your heads off because of the lack of requirement previous governments put on!
I think most of the first generations either would not have come to the UK or not have hung around for long if they knew how much the goal posts where going to be moved around so much on immigration! Immigration laws have been changed over and over again in every decade from the 1960's onwards and I can't wait for the time where the most of the developing world is developed and hardly any immigrants come to the west and then the west starts crying out for them.....AGAIN!!!!
I saw a news report on saturday where they said that Portugal is facing labour shortages in the not too distant future becuase they do not have enough of their own young people to replace the older generations that are retireing.
This will happen Europe wide soon as the baby boom generation (the biggest alive today in the west) started to retire as of 2011 and i am intending to do a thread on this.
I agree that it is hypocritical of Brits to live in Spain and not speak Spanish and then moan about foreigners here not speaking English. The fact that they seem to manage in Spain ok could be down to the Spanish government making it too easy for them not to learn.
I think that it is very naïve of someone to move here, even if it was in the '50s, and not think that they would have learn some English.
Regardless of that, I will never understand why they would not want to learn English. It must be very isolating to live in a country and not speak the language.
I agree that it is hypocritical of Brits to live in Spain and not speak Spanish and then moan about foreigners here not speaking English. The fact that they seem to manage in Spain ok could be down to the Spanish government making it too easy for them not to learn.
I think that it is very naïve of someone to move here, even if it was in the '50s, and not think that they would have learn some English.
Regardless of that, I will never understand why they would not want to learn English. It must be very isolating to live in a country and not speak the language.
With Brits in Spain, it seems very easy for them not to integrate with the spanish. Not only is there mini english "enclaves" on the costa del sol a lot, but the UK is not that far away to travel back to if they need to and Sky TV showing all british TV channels is broadcast out there too so I think its quite easy to live in a home away from home way out there. Even more so with the internet making life a lot easier these days when it comes to buying/ordering things online.
When it comes to the first generations of immigrants who came here from the indian sub continent, they did so purely for economic reasons. They were pushed by their own parents to go and work in the UK and send some money back to them on a regular basis. These immigrants had to work hard and work very long hours to not only pay for their cost of living here but also to support their poor families in their countries of origin. There is no real welfare system in such countries either, nor in a lot of new EU countries!
If you think about how busy we can all be with chores, on top of working, I don't think its easy to find time at all to learn and fully get your head around another language.
Many of the first generation of immigrants picked up good english along the way but their wives didn't and that is because they were too busy running their own households. Its not as easy as you seem to think it is.
I'd love to learn other languages fluently but I know that with the little spare time i get, I wouldn't be able to concentrate properly to take it in properly and I would need a lot more spare time to do so. I've got no doubt the same applied to first generation immigrants, inc the wives of immigrants.
Many of the first generation of immigrants picked up good english along the way but their wives didn't and that is because they were too busy running their own households. Its not as easy as you seem to think it is.
I'd love to learn other languages fluently but I know that with the little spare time i get, I wouldn't be able to concentrate properly to take it in properly and I would need a lot more spare time to do so. I've got no doubt the same applied to first generation immigrants, inc the wives of immigrants.
I am not saying it is easy, however, it is necessary.
As for you saying you would love to learn another language - you live here and speak English! That is not the same as living here and not speaking English.
You not learning another language does not impact your life here. Immigrants living here and not learning English does impact their lives. The two situations are chalk and cheese.
I am not saying it is easy, however, it is necessary.
As for you saying you would love to learn another language - you live here and speak English! That is not the same as living here and not speaking English.
You not learning another language does not impact your life here. Immigrants living here and not learning English does impact their lives. The two situations are chalk and cheese.
But the point is most new immigrants can speak english and non EU immigrants have to pass english language tests too in order to come here. It won't require them to be fluent but if they can pass those tests, they are bound to pick up fluent english pretty quickly.
Those test requirements are not placed on EU migrants though so maybe the likes of Sajid Javid should stop turning on hs own ethnic background and tell David Cameron and his own party that EU immigrants will need to pass such tests too and that should be part of any re negotiation of the EU rules.
If I could speak french fluently btw, I probably would have tried to have goton a job out there ages ago.
No many didn't, especially the ones from the indian sub continent. They may have spoken limited english but many couldn't speak any english when they first came here.
Yes they did and the first waves of immigrants mainly came from the West Indies and what is the common language spoken out there? after them it was dribs and drabs until Amin kicked Asians out of Uganda which saw the next wave and their English was good.
When they bought their wives here, they are the ones who often did not end up learning english. They where too busy raising their families and being housewives. Thats not me being sexist, that is what happened in most cases with the wives of men who came from the indian sub continent. I think this is who Javid is referring too and I wonder if his own mum speaks fluent english and even if she does, what about other relatives of his who came here from Pakistan.
I agree with you about the wives but in my experiences from the 60's and 70's it was those who came from Pakistan who had the language problem not the Indians (wives excluded) and it was Indians who mainly worked face to face with the public where being able to speak English was needed, the Pakistanis mostly worked in factories or non skilled labouring jobs which didn't require spoken English and there was someone able to translate anyway - again that's my experience and from my years in the Midlands.
Anyway I don't think Javid was talking of them in particular because there are plenty who've come here since who are unable to speak English and there are plenty more opportunities to learn it today than before.
Yes they did and the first waves of immigrants mainly came from the West Indies and what is the common language spoken out there? after them it was dribs and drabs until Amin kicked Asians out of Uganda which saw the next wave and their English was good.
I agree with you about the wives but in my experiences from the 60's and 70's it was those who came from Pakistan who had the language problem not the Indians (wives excluded) and it was Indians who mainly worked face to face with the public where being able to speak English was needed, the Pakistanis mostly worked in factories or non skilled labouring jobs which didn't require spoken English and there was someone able to translate anyway - again that's my experience and from my years in the Midlands.
None of that excuses any who are still unable to speak the language but I don't think Javid was talking of them in particular because there are plenty who've come here since who are unable to speak English and there are plenty more opportunities to learn it today than before.
There was considerable amount of people from india/pakistan that came here in the 1950's. I've seen programmes that have shown the stats both current programmes and old ones. You're right on the wives point, most of them started coming here frm the 60's onwards.
I didn't bother to read Javid's piece but numerous paper reviews have mentioed what he wrote and he does seem to be having a go at the first generations.
I'm fully behind him on Immigrants being able to communicate with everyone else in learning English.
"Respect our way of life" is an interesting phrase to use. In his use of it he appears to be saying our way of life in this land is about respecting British laws, and not making use of Sharia Law. Which I also agree with and have no problem supporting. It's just that I have seen that phrase used before in more right and far right wing based opinions and politics and wonder if he used it coincidentally or if it was purposely used to either redefine the phrase in a more widely acceptable setting or whether he wants to attract voters from that area of the spectrum.
Anyway it's interesting for this to come out at this time (although Keith Vaz doesn't seem to think so - in the article he suggests this is nothing new).
All in all I agree with him - also I think he's saying what a lot of people want and think but I don't know if others will see this as some sort of ruse or simply not believe anything a Tory MP says (or whether the aspect of him being Asian has any relevance?).
For 500 quid the whole of the EU non speaking English could buy in London a certificate and qualify for residency
Shared values surely is what makes for a harmonious society/country.
If you have no aspirations to speak English in an English speaking country, you are inevitably driven toward isolation from the wider community and driven to form an alternate community. Fine, as long as the shared values aren't incompatable, they often are absolutely opposed. Forced Marriage for one.
How you would test for shared values to be honest i'm not sure. But speaking the language of your new home is a starting point.
This is the problem.
I live in Derby where Jasvinda Sanghera grew up - the founder of Karma Nirvana, a charity that supports men and women who are trying to escape forced marriage. She ran away from home as a teenager because her parents were trying to force an unwanted marriage on her and her older sister committed suicide after being forced into an unhappy marriage. Jasvinda's parents never spoke to her again before they died, having never met their grandchildren either.
When ethnic minorities can't speak English and don't want to be British in any way, they form isolated communities, which prevents many living there from really accessing the outside world and which risks taking women's rights back several centuries. Forced marriage is happening in the UK and these isolated communities prevent women from truely having access to the protection UK law offers. These women have less chance of being able to have a career etc than white British women and it's wrong.
For most British in Spain it is not necessary to learn english . Remember , English is the
most widely spoken language in the world , although sometimes that seems hard to believe here in England . The British moving to Spain are not going there to access the benefits system and if they tried there would not be translators on hand . If you go to police station in Spain , you must pay for your own translator , It should be the same here . if you go to hospital is Spain , you must provide your own translator . Why do we spend millions on providing free translators only to make it easier for foreigners or lazy immigrants to use our NHS and claim benefits . No other country would do this I'm sure .
Both Tory and Labour governemts just wanted immigrants to fill the labour shortages and nothing else was expected off them, so Sajid Javed and Nadhim Zahawi who said on Any Questions a few weeks ago "Oh I love red wine" - remember that before getting on your high horse on this one! >:(
But if it were a sherry - at around 10 degrees - no horse could be high enough in that case, could it?
Eh? Not at all sure what that has to do with the point you're making!
If Sajid Javid is embarassed/ashamed of his religion and ethnic background and I genuinely get the impression his is, then he has no business telling his ethnic background what to do!
Comments
That's always trotted out as some kind of justification for immigrants to this country not learning English.
People living in Spain should learn Spanish.
You don't need to go on a course to learn English. I'm sure a desire to learn and some trips to the library would go a long way. No one is saying that they need to get a degree, they just need to be able to communicate.
Apart from anything else, people need to make sure they are not being ripped off or taken advantage of.
I also think it is unfair to expect children to take responsibility for making sure that their parents are up to speed with everything.
Try saying to a ten-year-old "can you tell your mum that the bank is going to repossess your home" (I've had to do that) and then say that it's ok for the children to do all the translating.
Re bib: But they don't and when does anyone in the political/media/press world get on their case for being so hypocritical because many of them moan about immigrants to the UK not "integrating", citing that as a reason for wanting to leave for Spain!
They then they do the same as what they accuse immigrants here of not doing and don't integrate themselves with the Spanish!
Most recent immigrants do speak english but I've noticed people still try and claim they still can't speak english because they don't like their foreign accents! >:( >:( >:(
Re-read my post and I think you will find that I said the exact opposite.
I also didn't mention anything about accents.
Do any countries have away of life?
His comments on people living here 50 years and still not speaking English are correct we've seen it in the hospitals over and over and it makes it impossible unless someone on staff speaks the language of the patient its either getting a Family member to be there almost constant (which rarely happens) so then its upto translators to speak for the patient with the doctors or when having a test etc)
Its the number one cause of people's concerns this isn't integration this is just wanting to carry on as before in another country but not accepting that fact it is another country and learning English goes along with that. The age old excuse of a person's age is stopping them when a lot of these people have lived in the uk 30+ years.
Little thing like this would not only help staff save loads of money but also stop the more extreme elements in politics using this as ammunition
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of those who leave to Spain and why they do.
The bottom line is the British Governments over the years keep on changing the goal posts! They did NOT put requirements on learning english to the first generations but they have been moaning about it bigtime since the turn of this century at the very least!
I'd say to them, get your requirements sorted out in the first place instead of having one rule in the late 40's onwards and then 60-70 years later start moaning your heads off because of the lack of requirement previous governments put on!
I think most of the first generations either would not have come to the UK or not have hung around for long if they knew how much the goal posts where going to be moved around so much on immigration! Immigration laws have been changed over and over again in every decade from the 1960's onwards and I can't wait for the time where the most of the developing world is developed and hardly any immigrants come to the west and then the west starts crying out for them.....AGAIN!!!!
I saw a news report on saturday where they said that Portugal is facing labour shortages in the not too distant future becuase they do not have enough of their own young people to replace the older generations that are retireing.
This will happen Europe wide soon as the baby boom generation (the biggest alive today in the west) started to retire as of 2011 and i am intending to do a thread on this.
So it is easier on the English speakers of the world, but saying that they should try to learn the language of were they move to.
No hypocrisy there, it is the people who do not leave for Spain that are doing the complaining. Perhaps the Spanish are complaining and if they are that is their right. It seems that most of the Brits who leave for Spain take their pensions with them. Money talks quite loudly and excuses many sins.
I agree that it is hypocritical of Brits to live in Spain and not speak Spanish and then moan about foreigners here not speaking English. The fact that they seem to manage in Spain ok could be down to the Spanish government making it too easy for them not to learn.
I think that it is very naïve of someone to move here, even if it was in the '50s, and not think that they would have learn some English.
Regardless of that, I will never understand why they would not want to learn English. It must be very isolating to live in a country and not speak the language.
With Brits in Spain, it seems very easy for them not to integrate with the spanish. Not only is there mini english "enclaves" on the costa del sol a lot, but the UK is not that far away to travel back to if they need to and Sky TV showing all british TV channels is broadcast out there too so I think its quite easy to live in a home away from home way out there. Even more so with the internet making life a lot easier these days when it comes to buying/ordering things online.
When it comes to the first generations of immigrants who came here from the indian sub continent, they did so purely for economic reasons. They were pushed by their own parents to go and work in the UK and send some money back to them on a regular basis. These immigrants had to work hard and work very long hours to not only pay for their cost of living here but also to support their poor families in their countries of origin. There is no real welfare system in such countries either, nor in a lot of new EU countries!
If you think about how busy we can all be with chores, on top of working, I don't think its easy to find time at all to learn and fully get your head around another language.
Many of the first generation of immigrants picked up good english along the way but their wives didn't and that is because they were too busy running their own households. Its not as easy as you seem to think it is.
I'd love to learn other languages fluently but I know that with the little spare time i get, I wouldn't be able to concentrate properly to take it in properly and I would need a lot more spare time to do so. I've got no doubt the same applied to first generation immigrants, inc the wives of immigrants.
I am not saying it is easy, however, it is necessary.
As for you saying you would love to learn another language - you live here and speak English! That is not the same as living here and not speaking English.
You not learning another language does not impact your life here. Immigrants living here and not learning English does impact their lives. The two situations are chalk and cheese.
But the point is most new immigrants can speak english and non EU immigrants have to pass english language tests too in order to come here. It won't require them to be fluent but if they can pass those tests, they are bound to pick up fluent english pretty quickly.
Those test requirements are not placed on EU migrants though so maybe the likes of Sajid Javid should stop turning on hs own ethnic background and tell David Cameron and his own party that EU immigrants will need to pass such tests too and that should be part of any re negotiation of the EU rules.
If I could speak french fluently btw, I probably would have tried to have goton a job out there ages ago.
Yes they did and the first waves of immigrants mainly came from the West Indies and what is the common language spoken out there? after them it was dribs and drabs until Amin kicked Asians out of Uganda which saw the next wave and their English was good.
I agree with you about the wives but in my experiences from the 60's and 70's it was those who came from Pakistan who had the language problem not the Indians (wives excluded) and it was Indians who mainly worked face to face with the public where being able to speak English was needed, the Pakistanis mostly worked in factories or non skilled labouring jobs which didn't require spoken English and there was someone able to translate anyway - again that's my experience and from my years in the Midlands.
Anyway I don't think Javid was talking of them in particular because there are plenty who've come here since who are unable to speak English and there are plenty more opportunities to learn it today than before.
There was considerable amount of people from india/pakistan that came here in the 1950's. I've seen programmes that have shown the stats both current programmes and old ones. You're right on the wives point, most of them started coming here frm the 60's onwards.
I didn't bother to read Javid's piece but numerous paper reviews have mentioed what he wrote and he does seem to be having a go at the first generations.
For 500 quid the whole of the EU non speaking English could buy in London a certificate and qualify for residency
This is the problem.
I live in Derby where Jasvinda Sanghera grew up - the founder of Karma Nirvana, a charity that supports men and women who are trying to escape forced marriage. She ran away from home as a teenager because her parents were trying to force an unwanted marriage on her and her older sister committed suicide after being forced into an unhappy marriage. Jasvinda's parents never spoke to her again before they died, having never met their grandchildren either.
When ethnic minorities can't speak English and don't want to be British in any way, they form isolated communities, which prevents many living there from really accessing the outside world and which risks taking women's rights back several centuries. Forced marriage is happening in the UK and these isolated communities prevent women from truely having access to the protection UK law offers. These women have less chance of being able to have a career etc than white British women and it's wrong.
most widely spoken language in the world , although sometimes that seems hard to believe here in England . The British moving to Spain are not going there to access the benefits system and if they tried there would not be translators on hand . If you go to police station in Spain , you must pay for your own translator , It should be the same here . if you go to hospital is Spain , you must provide your own translator . Why do we spend millions on providing free translators only to make it easier for foreigners or lazy immigrants to use our NHS and claim benefits . No other country would do this I'm sure .
But if it were a sherry - at around 10 degrees - no horse could be high enough in that case, could it?
If Sajid Javid is embarassed/ashamed of his religion and ethnic background and I genuinely get the impression his is, then he has no business telling his ethnic background what to do!