Aaron Cook - Taekwondo

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  • DM AndyDM Andy Posts: 2,828
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    Well, exactly, who is more likely to be able to change their style at short notice, a proven world class performer or a newcomer?
    Both Cook and Mohammad are proven world class performers, they are both European champions, albeit Cook not as impressively.
  • maninthequeuemaninthequeue Posts: 2,479
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    Unbelievable.

    The BOA really should have overruled their Team GB Taekwondo selection committee choosing to ignore the World #1 ranking Taekwondo fighter just because he decided (rightly as it turned out) that the Team GB Taekwondo training programme was not good enough.

    Imagine the outcry if the Serbian Tennis Federation decided to not select Novak Djokovic for the Olympics and instead selected the World #8 Janko Tipsarevic and World #28 Viktor Troicki instead, yet Team GB Taekwondo have done something more incredulous than that.

    Team GB Taekwondo have well and truly brought their sport into disrepute, they can talk all about their own rules, guidelines and regulations all they want but the bottom line is this smacks of a vindictive stitch up by some ego driven committee members in a sulk. I really hope the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) do something about this.

    And for once I hope Lutalo Muhammad gets knocked out in the first round.
  • maninthequeuemaninthequeue Posts: 2,479
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    DM Andy wrote: »
    Both Cook and Mohammad are proven world class performers, they are both European champions, albeit Cook not as impressively.

    But Cook is a World Class performer in the weight the Olympic medal is fought at; and Mohammad isn't.

    You only need to take a cursory look at the sport of Boxing to know it is filled with the damaged reputations of Boxers who went for a glamour fight at not their natural weight and come a cropper to realise this is a dreadful disgraceful decision.
  • BosoxBosox Posts: 14,172
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    And for once I hope Lutalo Muhammad gets knocked out in the first round.

    That's unfair. He is, by all accounts, a nice chap who has been caught up in a bad situation. It's not his fault that the governing body have made such a hash of the selection, no one would turn down the chance to compete in the Olympics if it is offered to you.
  • KapellmeisterKapellmeister Posts: 41,322
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    And for one I hope Lutalo Muhammad gets knocked out in the first round.

    Me too. I know it's not his fault but it would be rich poetic justice.
  • Muttley76Muttley76 Posts: 97,888
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    The BOA really should have overruled their Team GB Taekwondo selection committee

    much as i disagree with the decision of GB Taekwondo, with respect I don't think the BOA really have the authority to do that, as noted here:
    Overturning the selection made by a national federation would have been an unprecedented decision for the BOA. They asked GB Taekwondo to reconsider their choice of Lutalo Muhammad and the governing body returned with the same name, and, satisfied that proper selection procedures had been followed, the BOA didn't have much choice. That doesn't mean they're happy. They say they might revisit the matter should the international federation's investigation bring new issues to the fore. They're aware of the pressure this has put on both athletes and have criticised the apparent lack of transparency that has made GB Taekwondo's decision to leave out the world number one hard to understand.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/18373483

    I think they made the right call to ask GB Taekwondo to think again, but looking at the broader picture I don't think I would be comfortable with the BOA having the power to dictate team selection to sports, after all it's not as though they themselves might not be above petty biases at times....
  • Muttley76Muttley76 Posts: 97,888
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    Bosox wrote: »
    That's unfair. He is, by all accounts, a nice chap who has been caught up in a bad situation. It's not his fault that the governing body have made such a hash of the selection, no one would turn down the chance to compete in the Olympics if it is offered to you.

    I agree, I hear this poor chap has had hate mail sent to him, people who wish bad things on him because of the choice made by other people are out of order, to be honest.
  • DM AndyDM Andy Posts: 2,828
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    But Cook is a World Class performer in the weight the Olympic medal is fought at; and Mohammad isn't.

    You only need to take a cursory look at the sport of Boxing to know it is filled with the damaged reputations of Boxers who went for a glamour fight at not their natural weight and come a cropper to realise this is a dreadful disgraceful decision.
    But -80kg is Mohammad's natural weight, he wasn't going to get picked for -80kg in the Euros so he went up a weight category and won there. You could argue that as -87kg isn't an Olympic category, the competition there was weaker, but Mohammad was impressive in that competition, wins by knockout, 10-4, referee stopped fight, 5-4 and 13-2 in the final. Cook's results were a bye, 13-11, 5-3, 10-8 and 11-11 (effectively 12-11) in the final.
  • maninthequeuemaninthequeue Posts: 2,479
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    Bosox wrote: »
    That's unfair. He is, by all accounts, a nice chap who has been caught up in a bad situation. It's not his fault that the governing body have made such a hash of the selection, no one would turn down the chance to compete in the Olympics if it is offered to you.

    Sorry I strongly disagree. By allowing himself to be the beneficiary of a farcical decision, then he is effectively supporting that decision.

    If Cook & Muhammad's positions were reversed with Muhammad being the World #1 & Cook being the World #59 and Team GB selected Cook then I would wish exactly the same thing to happen to Cook.

    I'm passionate and patriotic with regards to UK sportsman, but I don't believe in tolerating blatant behind closed doors favouritism ahead of selecting the best person for the job.

    Hence if I supported Muhammad, then I would be condoning Team GB Taekwondo's abhorrent behaviour..... an that is just plain wrong.
  • DM AndyDM Andy Posts: 2,828
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    Sorry I strongly disagree. By allowing himself to be the beneficiary of a farcical decision, then he is effectively supporting that decision.
    If it was farcical then I would agree with you. But it's not like picking you or me to go to represent us in the Olympics, it's a very close run decision. Both are European Champions. The rankings don't matter too much because they are historical, Cook got more points for losing in the first round in last year's World Championships then Mohammad did in not being picked. That's not a good guide to who's the better athlete. Cook and Mohammad have fought each other twice in senior competition, honours even 1-1. If the decision was as clear cut as you think it is, why didn't Cook beat Mohammad easily on both occasions?
  • alanwarwicalanwarwic Posts: 28,396
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    DM Andy wrote: »
    Both are European Champions. The rankings don't matter too much because they are historical, Cook got more points for losing in the first round in last year's World Championships then Mohammad did in not being picked. That's not a good guide to who's the better athlete.
    I thought Cook only just got to world no 1 in by recently beating Olympic contenders.
    And from your info it sounds like Mohammad only beat nobodies and is rated very low.

    I'm quite confused by this current form thing.
  • RichN95RichN95 Posts: 1,031
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    Let's be honest here. I doubt anyone on this thread knows much about taekwando. They've just read a couple of reports about it. (And they tend to be full of input from Cook's management).

    Maybe the taekwando people actually know they're doing.
  • alanwarwicalanwarwic Posts: 28,396
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    RichN95 wrote: »
    Let's be honest here. I doubt anyone on this thread knows much about taekwando. They've just read a couple of reports about it. (And they tend to be full of input from Cook's management).

    Maybe the taekwando people actually know they're doing.
    Really?

    Seems Cooks as world number 3 beat the world number 1 for the European title in May.
    Seems to me the ex world number 1 is now the new Olympic favourite!

    Form? And as said Cook's division was the main competitive one being an Olympic category.
  • cath99cath99 Posts: 6,826
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    RichN95 wrote: »
    Let's be honest here. I doubt anyone on this thread knows much about taekwando. They've just read a couple of reports about it. (And they tend to be full of input from Cook's management).

    Maybe the taekwando people actually know they're doing.

    I really don't think Cook's team have helped matters with the statements they have been putting out since the first selection was announced. They have pretty much pushed the idea that Mohammed is a nobody and doesn't deserve to be even considered for the place. It has been incredibly disrespectful. Reading people in here blaming Mohammed and hoping he'll lose in the first round is just as bad as the thing they're supposedly upset about.
  • DM AndyDM Andy Posts: 2,828
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    alanwarwic wrote: »
    I thought Cook only just got to world no 1 in by recently beating Olympic contenders.
    And from your info it sounds like Mohammad only beat nobodies and is rated very low.

    I'm quite confused by this current form thing.
    Okay, I'll try and explain it. All athletes get to carry over some points from the previous three years, Cook brought in 113 points, Ramin of Azerbaijan was level with him on 113 but the world number one is the current number three, Issam of Morocco on 132 points. Cook got 20 points for winning the US Open, Ramin 12 points for being the finalist, Issam 7.2 points for getting to the semi final. Then Ramin took the world number one spot by winning the Spanish Open and getting 20 points from there. Cook claimed the world number one slot by beating Ramin in the European champions, he got 50 points, Ramin 30 points for being in the final, Issam, not being European didn't compete but when the next African championships come around he'll be favourite to get 50 points there.

    Current Rankings
    Cook (GBR) 186 points
    Ramin (AZE) 175 points
    Issam (MOR) 139 points

    Cook does deserve to be world number one, but it doesn't help us answer the only question that matters, is he more likely than Mohammad to win gold for GB in the Olympics. I don't know, but assume that British Taekwondo do know more than us.
  • Tiger RoseTiger Rose Posts: 11,719
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    I don't agree with his selection but I do feel that Muhammad is in a horrible position - basically unless he wins gold everyone will turn around & say 'I told you so'. He basically has to win gold just to justify his selection. That's a horrible position for him to be in considering his relative inexperience.
  • Department_SDepartment_S Posts: 4,918
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    Sorry I strongly disagree. By allowing himself to be the beneficiary of a farcical decision, then he is effectively supporting that decision.

    If Cook & Muhammad's positions were reversed with Muhammad being the World #1 & Cook being the World #59 and Team GB selected Cook then I would wish exactly the same thing to happen to Cook.

    I'm passionate and patriotic with regards to UK sportsman, but I don't believe in tolerating blatant behind closed doors favouritism ahead of selecting the best person for the job.

    Hence if I supported Muhammad, then I would be condoning Team GB Taekwondo's abhorrent behaviour..... an that is just plain wrong.

    Well. It will only prove to be " farcical" if indeed he loses early in the competition and you get wish. Or would you say it would have been farcical decision even if he goes on to win gold? Because to me the decision is based obviously on who the British Taekwondo committee believe has a better chance of a medal. The only problem for me is the total lack of transparency shown by the body throughout the controversy.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1
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    Things simply don't add up. Cook is by far the more successful of the two fighters, you only have to look at both their achievements to see that and his record and performances suggest that he is the more likely to win Gold.

    Cook beat Muhammad in the Dutch Open and dominated, leading comfortably in the first 2 rounds of the German open with Muhammad coming back only in the last round. Cook then went on to beat the previous World #1 in the European Championships and doesn't appear to have any problems landing head kicks and scoring with them.

    Muhammad is now in an unenviable position. He can't refuse to compete as his career would be over. He is now reportedly receiving counselling so any suggestion that this whole mess hasn't affected him is nonsense.

    IMHO the selectors have got it horribly wrong!
  • Paradise_LostParadise_Lost Posts: 6,454
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    Lutalo's nomination was all based on speculation not results. The only fair way to settle this was a fight. Take the bias and subjectivity of a sitting committee out of the equation completely.
  • TombstoneTombstone Posts: 2,578
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    I listened to the head of the selection committee on 5live yesterday and it was unbelievable. All he had as a defence was the mantra 'Our selection criteria was adhered to'.

    They interviewed some bod from the Olympic committee afterwards who was towing a party line, but was clearly uncomfortable with the whole thing stating that 'selection criteria and the way they are applied will be looked into in the future'.

    An absolute bloody farce.
  • Tiger RoseTiger Rose Posts: 11,719
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    Tombstone wrote: »
    I listened to the head of the selection committee on 5live yesterday and it was unbelievable. All he had as a defence was the mantra 'Our selection criteria was adhered to'.

    They interviewed some bod from the Olympic committee afterwards who was towing a party line, but was clearly uncomfortable with the whole thing stating that 'selection criteria and the way they are applied will be looked into in the future'.

    An absolute bloody farce.

    I thought some of the stuff the Chief Executive of the BOA said was quite damning - in particular when he siad that their selection criteria was too subjective.
  • maninthequeuemaninthequeue Posts: 2,479
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    http://www.metro.co.uk/olympics/901725-matthew-pinsent-aaron-cook-saga-was-poorly-handled
    Olympic rowing legend Matthew Pinsent has put the boot into GB Taekwondo.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,799
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    Interesting article in Private Eye about this selection story. So Aaron Cook has Visa and British Airways as sponsors, who also happen to be financial backers of the BOA. Redgrave and Tanni Grey-Thompson have been huffing about this, they're corporate ambassadors for Team Visa. Meanwhile Pinsent ↑ and Cook have the same agent. So as PE summarizes the BOA are trying to obtain selection for an athlete financed by their own sponsors, with some other shared or vested interests chipping in.

    So if there's a stitch-up there may be a stitch-up on both sides. In fairness to GB Taekwondo they added a Korean guy to their selection team before again picking Muhammad. Presumably he doesn't have a vested interest.
  • FroodFrood Posts: 13,180
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    It's clear that, despite what they say, they are punishing Cook for leaving the programme.

    The comment about the change in the rules re head shots is a case of putting forward a weak argument to support a weak decision.

    You have the World #1 - the only reasons you don't pick is an injury issue and maybe if you also have the World #2 or 3.

    A final thought - if the one who does finally fight doesn's win the Gold:eek:, and in any case they'll be fighting under great pressure.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,799
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    I don't know, I'd probably disagree slightly. Nothing would be better for GB Taekwondo than a gold medal. For their funding, well, for every kind of reason. You'd think they would pick the best guy.

    I agree Muhammad is under ridiculous pressure, it's very unfortunate.
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