Options

Edinburgh Tram Shambles......

MarkjukMarkjuk Posts: 30,436
Forum Member
✭✭✭
What on earth has been going on with the Edinburgh Tram project? It seem to be a very expensive, poor managed project. It is now predicted that the scheme is now likely to cost near the £1 Billion mark - a hell of a lot of money for 10 miles of tram tracks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jun/23/edinburgh-tram-project-network

http://www.scotsman.com/news/1bn-to-complete-full-Edinburgh.6790337.jp

Heads should roll for this expensive shambles, both in the Scottish Parliament and the local Council.

Whilst I generally support schemes such as Trams and reopened railways, I don't think this project serves value for money at all. I can't see how the predicted ridership figures will cover the cost of construction.

This to me has proven that Boris Johnson's decision to cancel the Cross city Tram was the right one. £1 Billion could be spend on other ways of improving public transport.
«1345678

Comments

  • Options
    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 367
    Forum Member
    Markjuk wrote: »
    What on earth has been going on with the Edinburgh Tram project? It seem to be a very expensive, poor managed project. It is now predicted that the scheme is now likely to cost near the £1 Billion mark - a hell of a lot of money for 10 miles of tram tracks.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jun/23/edinburgh-tram-project-network

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/1bn-to-complete-full-Edinburgh.6790337.jp

    Heads should roll for this expensive shambles, both in the Scottish Parliament and the local Council.

    Whilst I generally support schemes such as Trams and reopened railways, I don't think this project serves value for money at all. I can't see how the predicted ridership figures will cover the cost of construction.

    This to me has proven that Boris Johnson's decision to cancel the Cross city Tram was the right one. £1 Billion could be spend on other ways of improving public transport.

    It will cost much more i believe, the ruling administration and TIE have shown incompetence throughout this process. No one in Edinburgh wanted it yet still the pushed ahead with it.

    Expect to see CT bills rise and the sale of Lothian Buses to plug the deficit.
  • Options
    MarkjukMarkjuk Posts: 30,436
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    see3po wrote: »
    It will cost much more i believe, the ruling administration and TIE have shown incompetence throughout this process. No one in Edinburgh wanted it yet still the pushed ahead with it.

    Expect to see CT bills rise and the sale of Lothian Buses to plug the deficit.[/QUOTE]

    I totally disagree with that, why is it every time a local Council messes up it is always the CT payers who pay the price? Yet those that waste the money keep their jobs? Incompetance should be severely stamped upon in Local councils/Government, especially when large sums of taxpayers money have been wasted.
  • Options
    Phil 2804Phil 2804 Posts: 21,846
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Markjuk wrote: »
    What on earth has been going on with the Edinburgh Tram project? It seem to be a very expensive, poor managed project. It is now predicted that the scheme is now likely to cost near the £1 Billion mark - a hell of a lot of money for 10 miles of tram tracks.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jun/23/edinburgh-tram-project-network

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/1bn-to-complete-full-Edinburgh.6790337.jp

    Heads should roll for this expensive shambles, both in the Scottish Parliament and the local Council.

    Whilst I generally support schemes such as Trams and reopened railways, I don't think this project serves value for money at all. I can't see how the predicted ridership figures will cover the cost of construction.

    This to me has proven that Boris Johnson's decision to cancel the Cross city Tram was the right one. £1 Billion could be spend on other ways of improving public transport.

    Basically and in a nut shell this was one of the last grandiose schemes of the last Labour Government in Scotland. The SNP have tried several times to wash their hands of the project since taking power like they did with that other pie and sky Labour vanity project GARL, sadly with less success.

    You are of course right that £1 billion could be much better spent on the long long overdue extension of the A90 to bypass Aberdeen completely, dualing the A96 north of Inverurie towards Inverness , making it less of a death trap and massively reducing the frankly outrageous 3 hour jounery time or towards building a new Forth Road Bridge.

    A farce and a travesty of tax payers money.
  • Options
    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 367
    Forum Member
    Markjuk wrote: »
    see3po wrote: »
    It will cost much more i believe, the ruling administration and TIE have shown incompetence throughout this process. No one in Edinburgh wanted it yet still the pushed ahead with it.

    Expect to see CT bills rise and the sale of Lothian Buses to plug the deficit.[/QUOTE]

    I totally disagree with that, why is it every time a local Council messes up it is always the CT payers who pay the price? Yet those that waste the money keep their jobs? Incompetance should be severely stamped upon in Local councils/Government, especially when large sums of taxpayers money have been wasted.

    But we all know that is what will happen, methinks we need a Greek style protest here, :D
  • Options
    I Trust in God.I Trust in God. Posts: 1,942
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Cockney rhyming slang:- Edinburgh tram=Labour sham!
  • Options
    MarkjukMarkjuk Posts: 30,436
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Phil 2804 wrote: »
    Basically and in a nut shell this was one of the last grandiose schemes of the last Labour Government in Scotland. The SNP have tried several times to wash their hands of the project since taking power like they did with that other pie and sky Labour vanity project GARL, sadly with less success.

    You are of course right that £1 billion could be much better spent on the long long overdue extension of the A90 to bypass Aberdeen completely, dualing the A96 north of Inverurie towards Inverness , making it less of a death trap and massively reducing the frankly outrageous 3 hour jounery time or towards building a new Forth Road Bridge.

    A farce and a travesty of tax payers money.

    Again we see projects that were initiated under Labour coming in way over budget and costing taxpayers a fortune. they really do have no sense of financial cost management at all.

    London's Cross City Tram as proposed by Ken Livingstone was another Labour grandiose plan, had that of been taken forward and work started I wonder how much that would of cost? Although I think Boris has cancelled some good transport ideas (DLR Dagenham Dock extension for example) I think he was right to cancel the Tram project. Ken Livingstone and his pie in the sky projects at the London CT payers expense can remain history as far as I am concerned.
  • Options
    spikydogspikydog Posts: 1,926
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Markjuk wrote: »
    see3po wrote: »
    It will cost much more i believe, the ruling administration and TIE have shown incompetence throughout this process. No one in Edinburgh wanted it yet still the pushed ahead with it.

    Expect to see CT bills rise and the sale of Lothian Buses to plug the deficit.[/QUOTE]

    I totally disagree with that, why is it every time a local Council messes up it is always the CT payers who pay the price? Yet those that waste the money keep their jobs? Incompetance should be severely stamped upon in Local councils/Government, especially when large sums of taxpayers money have been wasted.


    I agree completely. Heads should roll, and those responsible should be dismissed. But they won't be 'cause that just never happens. Of course it's too big a burden for Edinburgh council tax payers alone, so taxpayers across Scotland are to share the burden.
  • Options
    MarkjukMarkjuk Posts: 30,436
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    spikydog wrote: »
    Markjuk wrote: »


    I agree completely. Heads should roll, and those responsible should be dismissed. But they won't be 'cause that just never happens. Of course it's too big a burden for Edinburgh council tax payers alone, so taxpayers across Scotland are to share the burden.

    For the £1 Billion pounds being spent on this project they could have alrternatively reopened the Edinburgh Suburban and Southside Junction Railway ( aroute with many campiagners fighting for the ropening), the Edinburgh Airport link and a few other plans that have been put on hold due to "funding issues" with change to spare.
  • Options
    tiggertinytiggertiny Posts: 5,361
    Forum Member
    spikydog wrote: »
    Markjuk wrote: »


    I agree completely. Heads should roll, and those responsible should be dismissed. But they won't be 'cause that just never happens. Of course it's too big a burden for Edinburgh council tax payers alone, so taxpayers across Scotland are to share the burden.

    As long as the English taxpayer doesn't cop for any cost! :D

    More seriously it's a disgrace and wasn't the Scottish Parliament building vastly more expensive than it was supposed to be?

    Amazing isn't it just like the useless bankers somehow the fools that cock things up seem immune from responsibility.

    How can this be?
  • Options
    MarkjukMarkjuk Posts: 30,436
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    tiggertiny wrote: »
    spikydog wrote: »

    As long as the English taxpayer doesn't cop for any cost! :D

    More seriously it's a disgrace and wasn't the Scottish Parliament building vastly more expensive than it was supposed to be?

    Amazing isn't it just like the useless bankers somehow the fools that cock things up seem immune from responsibility.

    How can this be?

    Who knows? However it is long overdue that those in public services are held accountable for failures, rather then receieve a pat on the head and a "never mind".
  • Options
    tiggertinytiggertiny Posts: 5,361
    Forum Member
    Markjuk wrote: »
    tiggertiny wrote: »

    Who knows? However it is long overdue that those in public services are held accountable for failures, rather then receieve a pat on the head and a "never mind".

    I think you're wrong there they usually get a golden handshake followed by a pension and then join some firm or other as a director!!

    If any proof was needed that mugs like us are living in a different universe where we get stuffed if we make a mistake in our jobs yet the bankers and others are effectively rewarded for making a town halls of it.
  • Options
    stevensdrsstevensdrs Posts: 1,705
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Our local council spent near on a million pounds on a horrendous looking series of road side sculpture that was supposed to light up and give a kind of wave effect. They could not use it as it caused too much distraction to drivers. Typical Labour Council idiocity and a complete waste of CT money.
    The Edinburgh Tram Scheme is no better. Ill conceived, no real cost control and poorly managed since day 1. It is a White Elephant and heads should roll over it.
  • Options
    MarkjukMarkjuk Posts: 30,436
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    stevensdrs wrote: »
    Our local council spent near on a million pounds on a horrendous looking series of road side sculpture that was supposed to light up and give a kind of wave effect. They could not use it as it caused too much distraction to drivers. Typical Labour Council idiocity and a complete waste of CT money.
    The Edinburgh Tram Scheme is no better. Ill conceived, no real cost control and poorly managed since day 1. It is a White Elephant and heads should roll over it.

    Again in our area the traffic light friendly Labour council went about replacing roundabouts with traffic lights at great expense. They even made one road worse by installing traffic lights and removing the roundabouts. Local traders and residents have complained but nothing has been done about it.
  • Options
    blue_cobaltblue_cobalt Posts: 6,602
    Forum Member
    Instead of messing about, they should just build the tramline between the Airport and St Andrew Sq as soon as possible, and forget any further extension for the time being. They could use as few trams as possible and make sure as many people as possible use the trams and then they can start paying off all the loans needed to construct the network.
  • Options
    grassmarketgrassmarket Posts: 33,010
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    No, they need to pull the plug now. There is no way that this will ever make money, it will run at a loss from day 1. The irony is that Edinburgh was well known as having the best domestic bus system in Britain. I saw the other day that the architect of the project, David Begg, is also involved in the high speed rail link between London and Brum.
  • Options
    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 367
    Forum Member
    No, they need to pull the plug now. There is no way that this will ever make money, it will run at a loss from day 1. The irony is that Edinburgh was well known as having the best domestic bus system in Britain. I saw the other day that the architect of the project, David Begg, is also involved in the high speed rail link between London and Brum.

    David Begg is another I wish dead for the mess following his time as councillor in Edinburgh, that scumbag is also on the board of BAA where he was involved in the decision to cut back money for maintenance and new equipment at Heathrow, hence why the airport ran out of de-icer and did not have enough manpower or equipment to deal with the snow last year.

    I gobbed a big greasy one on him when he was councillor.:D
  • Options
    PhoenixblissPhoenixbliss Posts: 9,478
    Forum Member
    I really hope this project doesnt fall through.Trams are so suited to Edinburghs genteel character I was so looking forward to eventually travelling on them on my trips to Edinburgh.
  • Options
    TouristaTourista Posts: 14,338
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Markjuk wrote: »
    Again we see projects that were initiated under Labour coming in way over budget and costing taxpayers a fortune. they really do have no sense of financial cost management at all.

    London's Cross City Tram as proposed by Ken Livingstone was another Labour grandiose plan, had that of been taken forward and work started I wonder how much that would of cost? Although I think Boris has cancelled some good transport ideas (DLR Dagenham Dock extension for example) I think he was right to cancel the Tram project. Ken Livingstone and his pie in the sky projects at the London CT payers expense can remain history as far as I am concerned.

    A lot of regeneration isnt happening here now because of Boris cancelling the Dagenham dock extension.

    New retail areas, and mixed housing are on the back burner as the developer was brought in on the understanding that the DLR would be coming here.

    The biggest, most short sighted failure in my mind, was the East London river crossing cancellation. At a stroke, it would have changed the traffic dynamic completely, and eased congestion for the A13, Blackwall tunnel, and allow the closure of the Woolwich ferry.
  • Options
    AiramAiram Posts: 6,764
    Forum Member
    Alex Salmond called this particular Labour folly right. He is also right not to throw taxpayers money at it to solve the problem

    Just heard on telly that 96% of the contract was supposed to be fixed cost. How on earth did it get to such an overrun then?

    Who on earth advises our representatives before they draw up contracts with such punitive cancellation costs?

    It's ironic that both Edinburgh and Glasgow were served by great tram systems and instead of updating them, like they did in continental Europe, they destroyed them completely.

    The most disruptive policy after that in my opinion was the deregulation of the buses. Services can go off within weeks, numbers and routes are changed too willy nilly and no-one has strategic control any more.

    Expansionist bus companies sometimes aggressively push out their competitors on routes and then later decide the route they fought so hard for is uneconomic and withdraw leaving communities adrift. It's the old and young who can't drive who suffer in the long run.

    Edinburgh used to have a local bus service to be proud of.
  • Options
    MarkjukMarkjuk Posts: 30,436
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Tourista wrote: »
    A lot of regeneration isnt happening here now because of Boris cancelling the Dagenham dock extension.

    New retail areas, and mixed housing are on the back burner as the developer was brought in on the understanding that the DLR would be coming here.

    The biggest, most short sighted failure in my mind, was the East London river crossing cancellation. At a stroke, it would have changed the traffic dynamic completely, and eased congestion for the A13, Blackwall tunnel, and allow the closure of the Woolwich ferry.

    The Dagenham Dock extension is back on the list of proposed extensions for the DLR.

    The map below (officially issued by TfL) shows what they have planned for it:

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WXthdyYxzzs/Tb5bmUtGTWI/AAAAAAAAAAU/AzRnimjWVJE/s1600/dlrextensions.jpg
  • Options
    david16david16 Posts: 14,821
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    One big private bus company being the only operators in large areas is not healthy at all.
  • Options
    OvalteenieOvalteenie Posts: 24,169
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    It's the sequel to the Scottish Parliament building shambles. Who'd have predicted it :rolleyes:
  • Options
    CrowleySrCrowleySr Posts: 214
    Forum Member
    I looked at the tram they had (still have?) on Princes Street, and couldn't figure out where the luggage goes

    Considering it goes from the train station to the airport, that's a pretty big mistake to make, especially when the airport buses have the space
  • Options
    david16david16 Posts: 14,821
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    Ovalteenie wrote: »
    It's the sequel to the Scottish Parliament building shambles. Who'd have predicted it :rolleyes:

    It should not be shut down to return back to the dark days of everything regarding Scottish only policy all debated and voted back down at Westminster.

    Only MSP's voting on scottish only policy at Holyrood is a good thing.
  • Options
    david16david16 Posts: 14,821
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    CrowleySr wrote: »
    I looked at the tram they had (still have?) on Princes Street, and couldn't figure out where the luggage goes

    Considering it goes from the train station to the airport, that's a pretty big mistake to make, especially when the airport buses have the space

    You pass the airport from the west by train to Waverley with the planes going overhead. But then you have to travel west by bus to the airport the direction you came from. How stupid is that.

    There is still the same old outdated parallel thinking in far too many places that you get the bus from the bus station and you get the train from the train station, no connections. Why has there never been and never will be a bus from waverley train station platform level to Edinburgh bus station? Yet there's a bus between Buchanan bus station, Queen street train station and central train station every 20 minutes.

    They need the express train from Glasgow to stop at Edinburgh Park and have the 100 bus calling there. also the Aberdeen trains stop at South Gyle and the 100 bus calling at South Gyle

    No tram would still mean the same old pathetic non connection between bus and train stations in Edinburgh oither than a ridiculously expensive taxi. They never provide any alternative at all to a cancelled project which is ridiculous.
Sign In or Register to comment.