The channels left in the list are those actually sharing streams. The ones cut from the list don't share streams but have unique streams which are turned off outside their broadcasting hours.
BBC Three / CBBC and BBC Four / CBeebies rely on MHEG applications to block the streams outside their normal hours. MHEG is a feature added to DTT in the UK but isn't part of the DVB spec. Most other countries don't use MHEG.
The DVB spec does allow for individual programmes to be age restricted but that feature isn't used in the UK.
There are multiple approaches that could be used for parental control, the one the BBC (and ITV) picked back in 1998 was separate channels.
The situation gets worse with multiple broadcasters and timeshared streams. Hypothetically I doubt if Disney would be happy for their childrens channel to morph into Babestation at night.
Even for mainstream timeshare channels I'm sure broadcasters prefer having their own LCN rather than sharing one with a random collection of other timeshare broadcasters.
Are you saying that all channels that share a stream with another are non-compliant?
ie BBC Three
BBC Four
Dave
Really
DRAMA
Ideal World
Dave Ja Vu
GOLD**Top Up TV
QVC Beauty
Create & Craft
price drop
The Store
Rocks&Co 1
Travel Channel**
Marketplace
Home**Top Up TV
itv3+1
CBBC
CBeebies
citv
Community
TVX
Smile TV2
Smile TV3
Babestn
PARTY
Blue
Babestn2
xxXpanded TV
It does complicate some distribution systems. I've stayed at hotels where CBeebies is available on the TV set in the room, this frustratingly just goes to a blank screen at 7pm, rather than displaying BBC 4.
I remember the original plan of BBC 3 and 4, the proposal was they'd show children's programmes during the day, with BBC 4 showing stuff for the very young. Well, of course that's what happened, except the LCN of the two channels changes at 7pm, giving the illusion (which the BBC like to spin) there are four services.
That's fine, but I actually think it would assist BBC 4's audience, if it was the channel daytime for infants, it would give it an identity, and would benefit from a 'lead in' at 7pm, from parents returning to the living room, with programmes rather than a 'back tomorrow at 6am' caption on the screen.
Well I can see the Disney example wouldnt work, but looking at figrin_dan's list below Im thinking about the complications of the COM MUXs sharing LNCs anyway.
It would work fine with BBC 3/CBBC and BBC 4/Cbeebies as they do share the bandwidth as expected.
The issue is that the COM MUXs dynamically share the bandwidth, so they would have to sell the bandwith to bradcasters as 13 24h streams and it would be up to the broadcasters to share their channel out to other broadcasters, so for example CITV and the store well ITV would own the channel and then at 6PM The Store would come on on the same channel.
Obviously channels that show kids TV during the day couldnt turn into adult channels at night, they would have to be something else.
I do think that if this was done ITV could for example share CITV with ITV+1 on freeview and free up almost a whole channel else where.
It would be interesting as there could only actually be a maximum of 60 TV channels (24H) on normal freeview, 70 with the new MUXs and 21 with freeview lite (this doesnt take into account the radio channels that obviously take some bandwidth away from TV channels.
Mark C I do like your thinking that the channel wouldnt just go blank ect, it would be nice for say BBC 3's and BBC 4's LNCs to also be the LNCs for CBBC and Cbeebies and if CITV could share ITV+1's daytime bandwidth then that would mean that a dedicated kids section wouldnt be needed on freeview.
Well I can see the Disney example wouldnt work, but looking at figrin_dan's list below Im thinking about the complications of the COM MUXs sharing LNCs anyway.
It would work fine with BBC 3/CBBC and BBC 4/Cbeebies as they do share the bandwidth as expected.
The issue is that the COM MUXs dynamically share the bandwidth, so they would have to sell the bandwith to bradcasters as 13 24h streams and it would be up to the broadcasters to share their channel out to other broadcasters, so for example CITV and the store well ITV would own the channel and then at 6PM The Store would come on on the same channel.
Obviously channels that show kids TV during the day couldnt turn into adult channels at night, they would have to be something else.
I do think that if this was done ITV could for example share CITV with ITV+1 on freeview and free up almost a whole channel else where.
It would be interesting as there could only actually be a maximum of 60 TV channels (24H) on normal freeview, 70 with the new MUXs and 21 with freeview lite (this doesnt take into account the radio channels that obviously take some bandwidth away from TV channels.
Mark C I do like your thinking that the channel wouldnt just go blank ect, it would be nice for say BBC 3's and BBC 4's LNCs to also be the LNCs for CBBC and Cbeebies and if CITV could share ITV+1's daytime bandwidth then that would mean that a dedicated kids section wouldnt be needed on freeview.
It's Logical Channel Number ie. LCN. I have no idea what an LNC is...
It does complicate some distribution systems. I've stayed at hotels where CBeebies is available on the TV set in the room, this frustratingly just goes to a blank screen at 7pm, rather than displaying BBC 4.
Then maybe tackle the issue with the distribution system, seeing as such things must be only a small percentage of the total number of DTT viewers (most of whom would appear to have no issue whatsoever with two or more channels sharing one stream, in fact I bet that many people don't even know or care that it's one stream).
...if CITV could share ITV+1's daytime bandwidth then that would mean that a dedicated kids section wouldnt be needed on freeview.
I think that the best you'll get will be ITV 3 +1 sharing with CITV. As for the rest of the part time channels on commercial multiplexes, it would be completely pointless and confusing to try to combine unrelated segments from different operators into a single channel.
I think that the best you'll get will be ITV 3 +1 sharing with CITV. As for the rest of the part time channels on commercial multiplexes, it would be completely pointless and confusing to try to combine unrelated segments from different operators into a single channel.
My argument for this partly stems from the fact that, if commercial PSB broadcasters farm out some of there PSB duties to channels other than their main channel, then that channel should be classed as a PSB channel, just like the BBC's kids news and 3&4 are seen as PSB channels that are not like the main BBC 1 and 2!
I believe that Channel 4 do this with films on Film 4 too.
My argument for this partly stems from the fact that, if commercial PSB broadcasters farm out some of there PSB duties to channels other than their main channel, then that channel should be classed as a PSB channel, just like the BBC's kids news and 3&4 are seen as PSB channels that are not like the main BBC 1 and 2!
I believe that Channel 4 do this with films on Film 4 too.
It isn't the right way to do it. Unfortunately, ITV Networks shouldn't have been allowed to farm out any PSB duties to ITV Digital Channels. The latter has no PSB obligations whatsoever. As STV and UTV aren't even connected to ITV Digital channels, it's amazing that any PSB obligations could have been "farmed out".
It isn't the right way to do it. Unfortunately, ITV Networks shouldn't have been allowed to farm out any PSB duties to ITV Digital Channels. The latter has no PSB obligations whatsoever. As STV and UTV aren't even connected to ITV Digital channels, it's amazing that any PSB obligations could have been "farmed out".
read the quote again, its only BBC and Channel 4 that farm out their PSB requirements. BBC One nor BBC Two show Kids content, this is farmed out to CBBC and Cbeebies.
ITV fulfil their PSB requirements through ITV alone, not 2,3,4, or CITV.
I do not know what you mean by Farm out
The PSB as defined by the Comms act are
Any BBC Channel
The legacy analogue channels including S4C (in Wales??)
So the BBC have about 10.5 out of 14 PSB channels in the UK ...
PSB requirements only apply to a channel NOT a broadcaster
Ofcom set these for Non BBC Channels
and the BBC Trust set these via service licences for all BBC services not just TV Channels
I know there's been some (imho ridiculous) suggestions in this thread that the BBC's definition of a channel is wrong, but how did you get 10.5?
The 0.5 of a channel comes form the BBC owning half of S4C!
Although I think the 'other' funding might have dropped quite a bit now, so the BBC might own more than half in i some ways!
I do not know what you mean by Farm out
The PSB as defined by the Comms act are
Any BBC Channel
The legacy analogue channels including S4C (in Wales??)
So the BBC have about 10.5 out of 14 PSB channels in the UK ...
PSB requirements only apply to a channel NOT a broadcaster
Ofcom set these for Non BBC Channels
and the BBC Trust set these via service licences for all BBC services not just TV Channels
so how did ITV get away with not showing kids TV on its PSB channel? surely that was a PSB requirement?
The 0.5 of a channel comes form the BBC owning half of S4C!
Although I think the 'other' funding might have dropped quite a bit now, so the BBC might own more than half in i some ways!
read the quote again, its only BBC and Channel 4 that farm out their PSB requirements. BBC One nor BBC Two show Kids content, this is farmed out to CBBC and Cbeebies.
ITV fulfil their PSB requirements through ITV alone, not 2,3,4, or CITV.
I did read it correctly, but would suggest that you take your own advice and read what you are quoting. I had already stated that ITV Digital Channels have no PSB obligations whatsoever.
The ITV Network were, however, allowed to reduce their children's content, a PSB obligation. The Ofcom statement reporting this stated:
In identifying these priorities, we noted that the latest figures available (first quarter of 2009) suggested that 93 per cent of homes with children had digital television, with access to dedicated childrens channels including ITVs own childrens channel, CITV.
So clearly, the presence of CITV was taken into account in reaching the decision.
Likewise most other countries don't share streams either.
Without MHEG switching, the shared channel would continue on the same LCN as the original one after it closed down. Stream sharing isn't an ideal solution and it's fairly obvious to see why it wouldn't be widely adopted by other countries.
Without MHEG switching, the shared channel would continue on the same LCN as the original one after it closed down. Stream sharing isn't an ideal solution and it's fairly obvious to see why it wouldn't be widely adopted by other countries.
It isn't MHEG switching.
It's simply video/audio stream being attached to the appropriate PIDs at the required times of transmission.
You can do this without MHEG.
In fact it happened in the past on DTT, back in the days of BBC Knowledge and the SDN Test Transmission. All without MHEG being used, or even supported by any STBs.
It is switching, insofar as the video is replaced by the MHEG caption. Clearly NOT hidden streams accessed from an MHEG, as would be the case with TVX, but that's not actually what I was saying...
It's simply video/audio stream being attached to the appropriate PIDs at the required times of transmission.
You mean the appropriate video/audio streams only being defined in the PMT during the hours of transmission.
You can do this without MHEG.
In fact it happened in the past on DTT, back in the days of BBC Knowledge and the SDN Test Transmission. All without MHEG being used, or even supported by any STBs.
Yes, and equipment only reading the PMT when the channel is selected would continue to show BBC Three on the same LCN as CBBC after it closed. All PC based software does this, whether or not MHEG is used.
Comments
Well I can see the Disney example wouldnt work, but looking at figrin_dan's list below Im thinking about the complications of the COM MUXs sharing LNCs anyway.
It would work fine with BBC 3/CBBC and BBC 4/Cbeebies as they do share the bandwidth as expected.
The issue is that the COM MUXs dynamically share the bandwidth, so they would have to sell the bandwith to bradcasters as 13 24h streams and it would be up to the broadcasters to share their channel out to other broadcasters, so for example CITV and the store well ITV would own the channel and then at 6PM The Store would come on on the same channel.
Obviously channels that show kids TV during the day couldnt turn into adult channels at night, they would have to be something else.
I do think that if this was done ITV could for example share CITV with ITV+1 on freeview and free up almost a whole channel else where.
It would be interesting as there could only actually be a maximum of 60 TV channels (24H) on normal freeview, 70 with the new MUXs and 21 with freeview lite (this doesnt take into account the radio channels that obviously take some bandwidth away from TV channels.
Mark C I do like your thinking that the channel wouldnt just go blank ect, it would be nice for say BBC 3's and BBC 4's LNCs to also be the LNCs for CBBC and Cbeebies and if CITV could share ITV+1's daytime bandwidth then that would mean that a dedicated kids section wouldnt be needed on freeview.
It's Logical Channel Number ie. LCN. I have no idea what an LNC is...
Unless I have totally misunderstood that post (including that last line which I was aware of) then my point still stands.
yes I obviously meant LCN not LNC!
I think that the best you'll get will be ITV 3 +1 sharing with CITV. As for the rest of the part time channels on commercial multiplexes, it would be completely pointless and confusing to try to combine unrelated segments from different operators into a single channel.
My argument for this partly stems from the fact that, if commercial PSB broadcasters farm out some of there PSB duties to channels other than their main channel, then that channel should be classed as a PSB channel, just like the BBC's kids news and 3&4 are seen as PSB channels that are not like the main BBC 1 and 2!
I believe that Channel 4 do this with films on Film 4 too.
It isn't the right way to do it. Unfortunately, ITV Networks shouldn't have been allowed to farm out any PSB duties to ITV Digital Channels. The latter has no PSB obligations whatsoever. As STV and UTV aren't even connected to ITV Digital channels, it's amazing that any PSB obligations could have been "farmed out".
read the quote again, its only BBC and Channel 4 that farm out their PSB requirements. BBC One nor BBC Two show Kids content, this is farmed out to CBBC and Cbeebies.
ITV fulfil their PSB requirements through ITV alone, not 2,3,4, or CITV.
The PSB as defined by the Comms act are
Any BBC Channel
The legacy analogue channels including S4C (in Wales??)
So the BBC have about 10.5 out of 14 PSB channels in the UK ...
PSB requirements only apply to a channel NOT a broadcaster
Ofcom set these for Non BBC Channels
and the BBC Trust set these via service licences for all BBC services not just TV Channels
I know there's been some (imho ridiculous) suggestions in this thread that the BBC's definition of a channel is wrong, but how did you get 10.5?
New BBC HD Channels just licenced by Ofcom (no launch dates yet.)
BBC 3 HD
BBC 4 HD
BBC News HD
CBBC HD
CBeebies HD
The 0.5 of a channel comes form the BBC owning half of S4C!
Although I think the 'other' funding might have dropped quite a bit now, so the BBC might own more than half in i some ways!
so how did ITV get away with not showing kids TV on its PSB channel? surely that was a PSB requirement?
Ah, forgot about S4C.
They wore ofcom down ... See http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/broadcasting/tv/itv-kids-2010
One could say that itv have grasped The digital age rather late in the day ,... But they have to make money.
And after the directive which stopped a lot Of advertising culminating in HFFS. http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/foodads_new/statement/
Makes Advertiser funded kids TV very un economic,
I did read it correctly, but would suggest that you take your own advice and read what you are quoting. I had already stated that ITV Digital Channels have no PSB obligations whatsoever.
The ITV Network were, however, allowed to reduce their children's content, a PSB obligation. The Ofcom statement reporting this stated:
So clearly, the presence of CITV was taken into account in reaching the decision.
Without MHEG switching, the shared channel would continue on the same LCN as the original one after it closed down. Stream sharing isn't an ideal solution and it's fairly obvious to see why it wouldn't be widely adopted by other countries.
It's simply video/audio stream being attached to the appropriate PIDs at the required times of transmission.
You can do this without MHEG.
In fact it happened in the past on DTT, back in the days of BBC Knowledge and the SDN Test Transmission. All without MHEG being used, or even supported by any STBs.
It is switching, insofar as the video is replaced by the MHEG caption. Clearly NOT hidden streams accessed from an MHEG, as would be the case with TVX, but that's not actually what I was saying...
You mean the appropriate video/audio streams only being defined in the PMT during the hours of transmission.
Yes, and equipment only reading the PMT when the channel is selected would continue to show BBC Three on the same LCN as CBBC after it closed. All PC based software does this, whether or not MHEG is used.