D/Debits. 'On or about...'

postitpostit Posts: 23,839
Forum Member
✭✭✭
I'm having a go-round with BT (again!). They ask a preferred date for my direct debit and agree to it. Email to confirm, but it contains the phrase 'on or about the 7th of the month'.

So they didn't take the d/d on the 7th, and it still hasn't been taken out today 10th. I'm on a fixed budget. I need to know what money is coming out when. Does anyone know how long 'or about' is, or is it a case of how long is a piece of string?

Comments

  • TUTV ViewerTUTV Viewer Posts: 6,236
    Forum Member
    postit wrote: »
    I'm having a go-round with BT (again!). They ask a preferred date for my direct debit and agree to it. Email to confirm, but it contains the phrase 'on or about the 7th of the month'.

    So they didn't take the d/d on the 7th, and it still hasn't been taken out today 10th. I'm on a fixed budget. I need to know what money is coming out when. Does anyone know how long 'or about' is, or is it a case of how long is a piece of string?

    Doesn't it say the exact date on your monthly BT statement?

    Don't forget your collection date will be 7, 10 or 14 days after the statement date, so if the statement date is deferred due the Christmas holidays, then so will the collection date.

    It also depends on who you bank with. Some will post transactions that are due to be posted to your account on Monday 12th January today, others hold them until the actual due date of the 12th.

    If you are having budgeting problems, why not open a second current account and transfer a sum equal to the total of all your direct debits across on payday? That way you know that what is in your account is there for you to spend.
  • postitpostit Posts: 23,839
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Doesn't it say the exact date on your monthly BT statement?

    Don't forget your collection date will be 7, 10 or 14 days after the statement date, so if the statement date is deferred due the Christmas holidays, then so will the collection date.

    It also depends on who you bank with. Some will post transactions that are due to be posted to your account on Monday 12th January today, others hold them until the actual due date of the 12th.

    If you are having budgeting problems, why not open a second current account and transfer a sum equal to the total of all your direct debits across on payday? That way you know that what is in your account is there for you to spend.

    My BT statement states the 7th, my preferred date. My bank is very good in the respect that it holds the d/d amounts from my balance until the date, if it's a weekend for instance.

    The only caveat is that the email states 7th February when I have 3 times BEFORE 7th January reiterated that the d/d/ comes out on that date. I'm just concerned that BT will take out the amount at whim on a date which will mean insufficient funds in my account.
  • TUTV ViewerTUTV Viewer Posts: 6,236
    Forum Member
    postit wrote: »
    My BT statement states the 7th, my preferred date. My bank is very good in the respect that it holds the d/d amounts from my balance until the date, if it's a weekend for instance.

    The only caveat is that the email states 7th February when I have 3 times BEFORE 7th January reiterated that the d/d/ comes out on that date. I'm just concerned that BT will take out the amount at whim on a date which will mean insufficient funds in my account.

    Well, you clearly know exactly how much they are taking. So just leave that sum available to draw.
  • panixspanixs Posts: 920
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    When did you ask to set the DD up?

    It sounds like it hasn't been set up in time for Jan and will start from Feb.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,168
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    I didn't think BT or the telcos in general gave a choice on a DD day? The awkward sods are always my only one that comes out mid month.
  • mrprossermrprosser Posts: 2,281
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    I think they use the phrase on or around to cover weekends/bank holidays etc.
  • SnrDevSnrDev Posts: 6,094
    Forum Member
    You owe BT an amount of money and agree to have the funds in place to pay it on or about the 7th. To all intents and purposes it's their money from the 7th, when they get round to taking is irrelevant from your PoV; you just need to manage your account in such a way that the money that BT have a claim on is available for them to take once the 7th comes and probably goes.
  • postitpostit Posts: 23,839
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    SnrDev wrote: »
    You owe BT an amount of money and agree to have the funds in place to pay it on or about the 7th. To all intents and purposes it's their money from the 7th, when they get round to taking is irrelevant from your PoV; you just need to manage your account in such a way that the money that BT have a claim on is available for them to take once the 7th comes and probably goes.

    Quite so. In theory that's the way it should work, except when one is on a very tight budget So on Saturday 10th, I check my balance at the ATM and it gives me a figure, I know I have x amount to spend on food shopping and spend it!

    Every other d/d comes out on the date specified, but then this is BT I'm talking about. Laws unto themselves >:(
  • SnrDevSnrDev Posts: 6,094
    Forum Member
    If you're on a tight budget you should know to the nearest pound [or even penny] what's in your account, or what should be. Since the mid 90s my bank has given me the option of showing the last 12 transactions to go through the a/c, which would clearly show whether [in this case] the BT DD had gone through. And that's without online banking, which I believe is quite popular these days.

    Really. If you run your account close to the limit, assume the worse, not that it's ok to spend when there's a chance that funds may not be available.

    The phrase "on or about" is quite relevant. It means exactly what it says - that sometime around the date specified the money owed will be taken and is certainly not available. It's up to you to work around that. FWIW Tesco take the payment for my credit card at best 1 day before and anything up to 4 days after the 'due date'. Plus Net (ISP) usually take the payment a few days after the due date; utility companies that I use take their money some time around the expected date. Point being that it's quite normal for the payment to go out on a date not exactly on the specified date, and also that because it's entirely predictable that sometime over the period of time that I expect the payment to go out, my reasonable assumption is that my personally calculated available balance takes that into account. You can use Excel, bits of paper, rely on online banking, use your own home-brewed accounting system or just rely on everything being absolutely hunky-dory and on time to keep track of what's going in & out of your account. Relying on payments being made when you expect them to be made is probably the least reliable method tbh.
  • HypnosssHypnosss Posts: 1,215
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    postit wrote: »
    Quite so. In theory that's the way it should work, except when one is on a very tight budget So on Saturday 10th, I check my balance at the ATM and it gives me a figure, I know I have x amount to spend on food shopping and spend it!

    You just spend whatever amount the ATM tells you? Strange!!!

    I think people should have a personal 'buffer' amount in their account.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,864
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    Direct debits have certain rules - they can't be taken BEFORE the agreed date with prior agreement with you, nor are they taken on weekends or public holidays, but usually the next working day (hence the 'on or about'). You should also be informed at least ten working days of the amount to be debited before it is actually is debited. As long as they're not taking the wrong amount or taking it early, you will just have to manage your spending better, or cancel the dd and arrange the payment yourself.
  • sarahj1986sarahj1986 Posts: 11,305
    Forum Member
    ✭✭
    orangebird wrote: »
    Direct debits have certain rules - they can't be taken BEFORE the agreed date with prior agreement with you, nor are they taken on weekends or public holidays, but usually the next working day (hence the 'on or about'). You should also be informed at least ten working days of the amount to be debited before it is actually is debited. As long as they're not taking the wrong amount or taking it early, you will just have to manage your spending better, or cancel the dd and arrange the payment yourself.

    Couldn't have put it better myself :kitty:
  • postitpostit Posts: 23,839
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    orangebird wrote: »
    Direct debits have certain rules - they can't be taken BEFORE the agreed date with prior agreement with you, nor are they taken on weekends or public holidays, but usually the next working day (hence the 'on or about'). You should also be informed at least ten working days of the amount to be debited before it is actually is debited. As long as they're not taking the wrong amount or taking it early, you will just have to manage your spending better, or cancel the dd and arrange the payment yourself.

    Ah thank you. That's the information I was asking for. I've never been overdrawn and don't intend to start now, because I manage my direct debits assiduously. It's when one of my direct debits goes awry that I worry. Can BT just take the direct debit when it damn well suits them?

    I've been in touch with them 3 times since the beginning of the month (always via on-line chat as 'phoning them gets me no-where in a long time!) and have been assured that although there is a glitch in their system (when isn't there??) the money should have been taken on the 7th.

    Round and around we go.
  • SnrDevSnrDev Posts: 6,094
    Forum Member
    postit wrote: »
    Ah thank you. That's the information I was asking for. I've never been overdrawn and don't intend to start now, because I manage my direct debits assiduously. It's when one of my direct debits goes awry that I worry. Can BT just take the direct debit when it damn well suits them?
    Pretty much yes, once the due date has passed.

    I really don't see the problem, esp now that you've told us you manage DDs assiduously. You know that some money in your account is earmarked for BT and that they should have taken it on the 7th but haven't yet. The 7th was Wednesday; it's only two (three incl today) working days late - that falls within my definition of 'on or about'.

    It's simple - once the due date arrives the money is no longer yours to spend. There may be an argument for calling foul if it's paid 3 months on, but 3 working days? Doesn't even warrant a call to BT. On or after the 7th it's their money.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,864
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    postit wrote: »
    Ah thank you. That's the information I was asking for. I've never been overdrawn and don't intend to start now, because I manage my direct debits assiduously. It's when one of my direct debits goes awry that I worry. Can BT just take the direct debit when it damn well suits them?

    I've been in touch with them 3 times since the beginning of the month (always via on-line chat as 'phoning them gets me no-where in a long time!) and have been assured that although there is a glitch in their system (when isn't there??) the money should have been taken on the 7th.

    Round and around we go.
    When was the dd originally set up?
  • ROWLING2010ROWLING2010 Posts: 3,909
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    orangebird wrote: »
    Direct debits have certain rules - they can't be taken BEFORE the agreed date with prior agreement with you, nor are they taken on weekends or public holidays, but usually the next working day (hence the 'on or about'). You should also be informed at least ten working days of the amount to be debited before it is actually is debited. As long as they're not taking the wrong amount or taking it early, you will just have to manage your spending better, or cancel the dd and arrange the payment yourself.

    My phone company (KC) seems to disregard this if my payment day (15th) falls on a Sunday. They take it out on Friday the 13th instead. >:(
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,864
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    They're not allowed to do that under the DD guarantee unless you have agreed to it and you are entitled to an immediate refund. http://www.directdebit.co.uk/DIRECTDEBITEXPLAINED/Pages/Incorrectpayments.aspx

    Any company found to be falling foul of the DD agreement could have their DD facilty withdrawn. You should complain to them.
  • degsyhufcdegsyhufc Posts: 59,251
    Forum Member
    postit wrote: »
    I'm having a go-round with BT (again!). They ask a preferred date for my direct debit and agree to it. Email to confirm, but it contains the phrase 'on or about the 7th of the month'.

    So they didn't take the d/d on the 7th, and it still hasn't been taken out today 10th. I'm on a fixed budget. I need to know what money is coming out when. Does anyone know how long 'or about' is, or is it a case of how long is a piece of string?
    After reading the OP and before reading the first reply I too would have said to setup a new account and transfer the required amount over to it in advance. Say the 1st of the month to give a weeks grace.

    Then again, with the easiness and availability of online and banking apps it shouldn't be a bother to keep tight control of your spending and balance.
  • postitpostit Posts: 23,839
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    orangebird wrote: »
    They're not allowed to do that under the DD guarantee unless you have agreed to it and you are entitled to an immediate refund. http://www.directdebit.co.uk/DIRECTDEBITEXPLAINED/Pages/Incorrectpayments.aspx

    Any company found to be falling foul of the DD agreement could have their DD facilty withdrawn. You should complain to them.

    I thank you for this. From the website :

    If a Direct Debit payment has been taken which is not in accordance with the advance notice received i.e. too much has been taken or the payment has been taken on the wrong date you are entitled to an immediate refund of the amount debited from your bank under the Direct Debit Guarantee. If the payment due date falls at a weekend or on a bank holiday the organisation is obliged to debit your account just after the due date, not before, unless they notify you in advance of a change of date.

    As some of my d/d are taken on a Saturday if for instance 7th of the month falls on a weekend, by my count, 7 full days have fallen since the date the d/d should have been taken. It's therefore up to BT to give me 10 days notification as to the date they will take it.

    It's never been about managing my money. I do that very well thank you, and the monies due to BT are set aside. My beef has always been that when a d/d is set up, the damn companies should stick to the rules!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,864
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    postit wrote: »
    I thank you for this. From the website :

    If a Direct Debit payment has been taken which is not in accordance with the advance notice received i.e. too much has been taken or the payment has been taken on the wrong date you are entitled to an immediate refund of the amount debited from your bank under the Direct Debit Guarantee. If the payment due date falls at a weekend or on a bank holiday the organisation is obliged to debit your account just after the due date, not before, unless they notify you in advance of a change of date.

    As some of my d/d are taken on a Saturday if for instance 7th of the month falls on a weekend, by my count, 7 full days have fallen since the date the d/d should have been taken. It's therefore up to BT to give me 10 days notification as to the date they will take it.

    It's never been about managing my money. I do that very well thank you, and the monies due to BT are set aside. My beef has always been that when a d/d is set up, the damn companies should stick to the rules!
    If the 7th falls on a weekend or bank holiday, I would expect them to take the money the next working day... The 10 days notice doesn't have to be exactly 10 days - It jusy has to be AT LEAST
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 4,864
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    postit wrote: »
    I thank you for this. From the website :

    If a Direct Debit payment has been taken which is not in accordance with the advance notice received i.e. too much has been taken or the payment has been taken on the wrong date you are entitled to an immediate refund of the amount debited from your bank under the Direct Debit Guarantee. If the payment due date falls at a weekend or on a bank holiday the organisation is obliged to debit your account just after the due date, not before, unless they notify you in advance of a change of date.

    As some of my d/d are taken on a Saturday if for instance 7th of the month falls on a weekend, by my count, 7 full days have fallen since the date the d/d should have been taken. It's therefore up to BT to give me 10 days notification as to the date they will take it.

    It's never been about managing my money. I do that very well thank you, and the monies due to BT are set aside. My beef has always been that when a d/d is set up, the damn companies should stick to the rules!
    If the 7th is the agreed date, and it falls on a weekend or bank holiday, I would expect them to take the money the next working day... The 10 days notice doesn't have to be exactly 10 days - It just has to be AT LEAST 10 days before. I'm surprised that you're having these issues. Once DDs are set up by BT (I used to do this for an art society), it's from then on an automated process. Is this a new DD? And do they send you a bill via post/email?
  • postitpostit Posts: 23,839
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    orangebird wrote: »
    If the 7th is the agreed date, and it falls on a weekend or bank holiday, I would expect them to take the money the next working day... The 10 days notice doesn't have to be exactly 10 days - It just has to be AT LEAST 10 days before. I'm surprised that you're having these issues. Once DDs are set up by BT (I used to do this for an art society), it's from then on an automated process. Is this a new DD? And do they send you a bill via post/email?

    In this case the 7th was a Wednesday, and I've been a customer since 2008 and always paid by d/d. The only difference is that I agreed with BT a lower tariff because I had built up a fair amount of credit. I asked that my d/d be lowered and they agreed. This was agreed on 19th December 2014. I received an email which was generic, just reiterating my bank details, not even an acknowledgement of the lower d/d but DID specify the 7th of the month.
  • GogfumbleGogfumble Posts: 22,155
    Forum Member
    ✭✭✭
    postit wrote: »
    In this case the 7th was a Wednesday, and I've been a customer since 2008 and always paid by d/d. The only difference is that I agreed with BT a lower tariff because I had built up a fair amount of credit. I asked that my d/d be lowered and they agreed. This was agreed on 19th December 2014. I received an email which was generic, just reiterating my bank details, not even an acknowledgement of the lower d/d but DID specify the 7th of the month.

    It was probably too late by the time the new agreement was in place to take out the money on the 7th January (Christmas and all the bank holidays would have delayed things further). You may have had a DD agreement in place since 2008 but a change will probably effectively mean a new DD has been set up.

    Hopefully it will just be this month that it is taken late and from the 7th feb, the payment will go out as planned.
Sign In or Register to comment.