I am a Christian but believe Christmas is the biggest load of tosh going. It wasn't even the true year and birth of Jesus. I was was in a debate on CBB and I was lambasted by a few atheists for being a killjoy. But, I see Christmas as being so against the Gospel teaching that I barely recognise it. Families getting into debt, all the food being wasted when people are starving, all the glitz and glamour etc. I would rather that it were called a Winter Festival and be removed from Christianity. Christians could then revert back to the simple message which is one of peace and goodwill. Revert to Christs Mass or do away with it all together.
A charismatic and intelligent, compassionate but slightly mad and deluded natural leader.
Born in Nazareth of humble parentage. People looked to him to free them from Roman oppression and rallied around him. It didn't work out as they had hoped. He became a cult figure especially after suffering what many saw as a martyrs death and gradually, over the years legends and stories grew up around him to make it seem that he fulfilled the Old Testament prophesies of the coming of a Messiah.
Jesus was actually called Joshua and was born sometime around the year 0 AD, but the exact date is unknown. I believe an angel came down and told Mary that she would be having the son of God, now whether Mary was raped by Romans is unknown and the spirit of the child is that of God.
If I'm honest, I don't entirely know the details but I like to think of it as the classical tale, with the donkey on a dusty road, Herod, etc, it just sounds nicer.
I am a Christian but believe Christmas is the biggest load of tosh going. It wasn't even the true year and birth of Jesus. I was was in a debate on CBB and I was lambasted by a few atheists for being a killjoy. But, I see Christmas as being so against the Gospel teaching that I barely recognise it. Families getting into debt, all the food being wasted when people are starving, all the glitz and glamour etc. I would rather that it were called a Winter Festival and be removed from Christianity. Christians could then revert back to the simple message which is one of peace and goodwill. Revert to Christs Mass or do away with it all together.
I am such a sour puss:(
Aww Delly. It's a shame you don't like Christmas, but i do understand what you mean, particularly the bit about spending and eating too much.
I do disagree though.
Christmas began its origin as a Winter festival as you suggested. The pagan festival of Yuletide where the Sun was at it's lowest and worshipped. yuletide slowly phased out as christianity became the new, strong religion and the winter celebration was maintained, but instead of pagans celebrating different Gods for different things, Christians merged everything into one and used the occasion to celebrate the birth of the saviour. It is fitting to celebrate his birth at this time as there has always been a winter festival, and as the bible gives no indication to the timing and date of his birth.
The commercialisation of Christmas has become obscene though. Christmas cards on sale in August, decorations being put up in shops as early as last weekend.
I genuinely avoid the commercialisation. I devise a menu of what I plan to cook for my meals on Christmas Eve, Christmas day and Boxing day and I purchase just the food required for those days. Of course I do indulge in a few nuts and nibbles, chocolates and wine but no more than I am physically capable of eating.
With regards to gifts. I never ask anyone what they would like. I buy a gift and give it to them. I also set a limit. Usually £5 per person. That way people get a present and I'm not skint! It isn't about how much you spend. It isn't about competing to buy a person the greatest present.It's about thinking of a person and just giving them a small token of your love. It sickens me when:
a): People admit to spending 3-400 quid per child on gifts alone!
b) People genuinely want a receipt to return a gift that someone has the decency to purchase for them. Gifts are not compulsory. If someone has the kindness to buy a gift, it should be appreciated, not moaned about. Jesus was supposedly offered Gold, Incense and Myrhh. If anyone should have took gifts back it should have been him! (Gold excepted!)
Christmas is about being with the ones you love. It isn't about buying really expensive presents to keep up with the Jones's.
I'm not convinced there is any evidence he even existed. He may well be a conflation of numerous people who might have, though. And that's the best case scenario. More likely not a grain of truth.
Angels are middle eastern mythological figures. (Their only real use nowadays would be along the lines of "An angel ate my homework"). If I was a jewish woman at that date in that place and found myself up the duff (thankyou Roman soldiers!), I would however lie myself blue in the face to pretend an angel dunnit.
Jesus was actually called Joshua and was born sometime around the year 0 AD, but the exact date is unknown. I believe an angel came down and told Mary that she would be having the son of God, now whether Mary was raped by Romans is unknown and the spirit of the child is that of God.
If I'm honest, I don't entirely know the details but I like to think of it as the classical tale, with the donkey on a dusty road, Herod, etc, it just sounds nicer.
Great theory. This is my version:
Mary was viciously raped by a Roman soldier. She was living with her cousin Elizabeth and her husband. Whilst Elizabeth's husband was out, Romans entered the house and took advantage of two innocent and vulnerable women.
Elizabeth's husband, upon discovering the news became so angry, so sickened, a mental state of depression where he was unable to physically speak as he considered his wife dirty and unclean. He would pray silently to God asking for help and it was God's voice that he believed he heard that told him of the Angel coming to Elizabeth to make her with child. His mind was telling him that this was a far more satisfactory version than the truth. It is this version that Elizabeth was made to tell everyone.
Mary had nightmares. She was so distraught at what had happened to her. Her parents saw her as filth and shamed. Her dreams would see over and over again the Roman raping her. She was going out of her mind. One night in a dream, she didn't see a Roman upon her. The face had changed. She saw the face of an angel. The angel told her that the baby would be blessed with the spirit of God. That she should love him like he was God himself.
She told her parents of her dream. Her parents agreed that it was a message from God and to protect her daughter they, in collaboration with Joseph, arranged for her to be married. They told everyone the child was Joseph's as they feared that their daughter would be stoned to death. To tell everyone that Mary was pregnant with the son of God would be considered blasphemy.
It was decided that Mary and Joseph would go to Joseph's relatives in Bethlehem for the census registration and to pay Mary's family taxes. It was best to keep Mary out of the way .
When they reached Bethlehem, they went to Joseph's relatives house but the main living quarters were full. Not only was it the census and tax registration time, it was also passover and the house was full of cousins, nephews, grandchildren and so on.
However, Joseph's relative suggested they sleep in the lower house and rough it out with other late arriving relatives and the animals. As Mary was pregnant they agreed. They were fed and were given blankets and water.
That night Mary gave birth. Joseph told his relatives of the dream Mary had about the angel and that the child is god on earth. As times were still turbulent and as they were still waiting for a Messiah, the story fascinated his family. One of his younger cousins told his neighbour who was bringing in his sheep for the night. His neighbour and his son wanted to visit Mary and Joseph to offer their congratulations.
At this time, a syzergy was occurring. Directly over Israel but seen stronger in Bethlehem, two planets aligned and shone brightly like a star. Three astrologers were travelling through Bethlehem from Persia and were heading back to Jerusalem. The light in the sky shone bright as if signalling a miracle. Joseph and his relatives looked up at the "star" and believed Mary's dream. Word soon spread and the astrologers were interested in the gossip. They visited Mary and Joseph some 12 days after his birth and as a gesture presented to Mary some Gold, Incense and Myrhh in the hope of improving the parents financial position.
When the news spread to Herod about the possibility of a Messiah and that the Messiah was a king to free the jews from persecution he feared for his own position.
Word spread back to Bethlehem that Herod was raging and that any new child born within the last 14 days would be slaughtered. Joseph had a nightmare and feared for the safety of his family. He swiftly, with his relatives help, escaped to Egypt. Only returning to Nazareth when it was safe.
When Jesus was 12, he started questioning the authority of the priests. He would visit the temple and speak to God, as if he knew him personally. His mother had told him of the circumstances of his birth and that he was special. jesus believed the dream scenario.
Nothing was heard from Jesus again until 18 years later.
Jesus never existed. He is purely an invention and his entire supposed life can be largely gleaned from a myriad of other myths and legends from Ancient Greece to Egypt to Mesopotamia, Babylon, the Far East etc.
You appear to have worked it all out by yourself:p
What I wrote is what I think probably happened. Centurion/soldier, it really makes no difference. I have always believed Mary got pregnant by being raped whilst visiting Elizabeth. It is far too co-incidental for two women to be impregnated by God at two completely different times. The area was dangerous. A married woman would never admit to being raped. Sex with another man other than her husband would lead to all kinds of social punishments.
I believe Mary (probably Maria or similar) was a teenager.
Sex before marriage brought shame on families, and still does in that turbulent area. Arranging Joseph to marry her and assume the child to be his own was the best way out for her. However, Joseph probably would never really accept the child as his. Believing it to be a child blessed from God was easier for him to take in and accept.
I do concede though. A roman soldier was more likely to be the perpertrator.
With regards to "making it up as i go along". I wasn't, but surely that's how the bible was created?
Comments
the spirit of Jesus exists for sure for many people - his life, his teachings, nowt wrong with them
I'm waiting for the day that Jesus's face turns up on a revel.
Don't look into it too deeply, you'll never find the answers.
Don't look into it too deeply, you'll never as long as you live, will ever find the answers.
Double post, it's either AOL. or DS to blame. BOTH SO SLOW.
he won't, he's gone, long time ago and won't be coming back
yeah, so whats the point LOL! if we don't know what the real questions are
might as well push up the daisies and sing whatever song we like
and be food for the wriggly worms
yeah by gum, not likely, gonna give it a good bash before i go anyway
:rolleyes:
I dunno, he turned up on a piece of burnt toast and someone's underwear.
I think it's good to think about why you believe what you believe.
Plus one:)
I can tell you he was no son of mine.
Yeah, joined ZZ top
I am such a sour puss:(
Born in Nazareth of humble parentage. People looked to him to free them from Roman oppression and rallied around him. It didn't work out as they had hoped. He became a cult figure especially after suffering what many saw as a martyrs death and gradually, over the years legends and stories grew up around him to make it seem that he fulfilled the Old Testament prophesies of the coming of a Messiah.
Jesus was actually called Joshua and was born sometime around the year 0 AD, but the exact date is unknown. I believe an angel came down and told Mary that she would be having the son of God, now whether Mary was raped by Romans is unknown and the spirit of the child is that of God.
If I'm honest, I don't entirely know the details but I like to think of it as the classical tale, with the donkey on a dusty road, Herod, etc, it just sounds nicer.
Aww Delly. It's a shame you don't like Christmas, but i do understand what you mean, particularly the bit about spending and eating too much.
I do disagree though.
Christmas began its origin as a Winter festival as you suggested. The pagan festival of Yuletide where the Sun was at it's lowest and worshipped. yuletide slowly phased out as christianity became the new, strong religion and the winter celebration was maintained, but instead of pagans celebrating different Gods for different things, Christians merged everything into one and used the occasion to celebrate the birth of the saviour. It is fitting to celebrate his birth at this time as there has always been a winter festival, and as the bible gives no indication to the timing and date of his birth.
The commercialisation of Christmas has become obscene though. Christmas cards on sale in August, decorations being put up in shops as early as last weekend.
I genuinely avoid the commercialisation. I devise a menu of what I plan to cook for my meals on Christmas Eve, Christmas day and Boxing day and I purchase just the food required for those days. Of course I do indulge in a few nuts and nibbles, chocolates and wine but no more than I am physically capable of eating.
With regards to gifts. I never ask anyone what they would like. I buy a gift and give it to them. I also set a limit. Usually £5 per person. That way people get a present and I'm not skint! It isn't about how much you spend. It isn't about competing to buy a person the greatest present.It's about thinking of a person and just giving them a small token of your love. It sickens me when:
a): People admit to spending 3-400 quid per child on gifts alone!
b) People genuinely want a receipt to return a gift that someone has the decency to purchase for them. Gifts are not compulsory. If someone has the kindness to buy a gift, it should be appreciated, not moaned about. Jesus was supposedly offered Gold, Incense and Myrhh. If anyone should have took gifts back it should have been him! (Gold excepted!)
Christmas is about being with the ones you love. It isn't about buying really expensive presents to keep up with the Jones's.
Angels are middle eastern mythological figures. (Their only real use nowadays would be along the lines of "An angel ate my homework"). If I was a jewish woman at that date in that place and found myself up the duff (thankyou Roman soldiers!), I would however lie myself blue in the face to pretend an angel dunnit.
Great theory. This is my version:
Mary was viciously raped by a Roman soldier. She was living with her cousin Elizabeth and her husband. Whilst Elizabeth's husband was out, Romans entered the house and took advantage of two innocent and vulnerable women.
Elizabeth's husband, upon discovering the news became so angry, so sickened, a mental state of depression where he was unable to physically speak as he considered his wife dirty and unclean. He would pray silently to God asking for help and it was God's voice that he believed he heard that told him of the Angel coming to Elizabeth to make her with child. His mind was telling him that this was a far more satisfactory version than the truth. It is this version that Elizabeth was made to tell everyone.
Mary had nightmares. She was so distraught at what had happened to her. Her parents saw her as filth and shamed. Her dreams would see over and over again the Roman raping her. She was going out of her mind. One night in a dream, she didn't see a Roman upon her. The face had changed. She saw the face of an angel. The angel told her that the baby would be blessed with the spirit of God. That she should love him like he was God himself.
She told her parents of her dream. Her parents agreed that it was a message from God and to protect her daughter they, in collaboration with Joseph, arranged for her to be married. They told everyone the child was Joseph's as they feared that their daughter would be stoned to death. To tell everyone that Mary was pregnant with the son of God would be considered blasphemy.
It was decided that Mary and Joseph would go to Joseph's relatives in Bethlehem for the census registration and to pay Mary's family taxes. It was best to keep Mary out of the way .
When they reached Bethlehem, they went to Joseph's relatives house but the main living quarters were full. Not only was it the census and tax registration time, it was also passover and the house was full of cousins, nephews, grandchildren and so on.
However, Joseph's relative suggested they sleep in the lower house and rough it out with other late arriving relatives and the animals. As Mary was pregnant they agreed. They were fed and were given blankets and water.
That night Mary gave birth. Joseph told his relatives of the dream Mary had about the angel and that the child is god on earth. As times were still turbulent and as they were still waiting for a Messiah, the story fascinated his family. One of his younger cousins told his neighbour who was bringing in his sheep for the night. His neighbour and his son wanted to visit Mary and Joseph to offer their congratulations.
At this time, a syzergy was occurring. Directly over Israel but seen stronger in Bethlehem, two planets aligned and shone brightly like a star. Three astrologers were travelling through Bethlehem from Persia and were heading back to Jerusalem. The light in the sky shone bright as if signalling a miracle. Joseph and his relatives looked up at the "star" and believed Mary's dream. Word soon spread and the astrologers were interested in the gossip. They visited Mary and Joseph some 12 days after his birth and as a gesture presented to Mary some Gold, Incense and Myrhh in the hope of improving the parents financial position.
When the news spread to Herod about the possibility of a Messiah and that the Messiah was a king to free the jews from persecution he feared for his own position.
Word spread back to Bethlehem that Herod was raging and that any new child born within the last 14 days would be slaughtered. Joseph had a nightmare and feared for the safety of his family. He swiftly, with his relatives help, escaped to Egypt. Only returning to Nazareth when it was safe.
When Jesus was 12, he started questioning the authority of the priests. He would visit the temple and speak to God, as if he knew him personally. His mother had told him of the circumstances of his birth and that he was special. jesus believed the dream scenario.
Nothing was heard from Jesus again until 18 years later.
Why a centurion? Why not an ordinary Roman soldier?
My version.... The Word was made flesh and lived among us.
I actually meant Roman soldier. Centurion just got written instead!
You're making it up as you go along:o
What I wrote is what I think probably happened. Centurion/soldier, it really makes no difference. I have always believed Mary got pregnant by being raped whilst visiting Elizabeth. It is far too co-incidental for two women to be impregnated by God at two completely different times. The area was dangerous. A married woman would never admit to being raped. Sex with another man other than her husband would lead to all kinds of social punishments.
I believe Mary (probably Maria or similar) was a teenager.
Sex before marriage brought shame on families, and still does in that turbulent area. Arranging Joseph to marry her and assume the child to be his own was the best way out for her. However, Joseph probably would never really accept the child as his. Believing it to be a child blessed from God was easier for him to take in and accept.
I do concede though. A roman soldier was more likely to be the perpertrator.
With regards to "making it up as i go along". I wasn't, but surely that's how the bible was created?