We're talking about whether or not the Quran specifies a punishment for apostasy, not what happened where.
You continue to try to make it look that ISIS is no worse than an Islamic country. That's totally absurd. No reasonable person believes that.
Qur'an doesn't. Hadith does and Sharia Law is based on both.
The evidence that the apostate is to be executed is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion).
Thus it will be clear to you that execution of the apostate is something that is commanded by Allaah, when he commanded us to obey the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as He says (interpretation of the meaning):
“O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority”
Is making people pay the jizya tax Islamic ?
Do you think the apostasy laws are outdated, unfit for purpose and need to be abolished ?
The Quran is the word of Allah. Hadith aren't necessarily reliable.
You waste a lot of time trying to make it look as if ISIS and Islam are one and the same.
The evidence that the apostate is to be executed is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion).
Thus it will be clear to you that execution of the apostate is something that is commanded by Allaah, when he commanded us to obey the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as He says (interpretation of the meaning):
“O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority”
Bukari is accepted as the most authentic.
Do you think the laws needs to be abolished ? Seems it's difficult for you to give a basic answer.
Do you think the laws needs to be abolished ? Seems it's difficult for you to give a basic answer.
can you answer why you like to cherry pick? Seriously I'm not going to respond to snippets any longer.
Do you realize no one here is in a position to tell Islam what their religion is? That's why I defer to scholars and say the answer must come from within islam. I could prefer that everyone would be a White Anglo Saxon Protestant but that has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever.
can you answer why you like to cherry pick? Seriously I'm not going to respond to snippets any longer.
Do you realize no one here is in a position to tell Islam what their religion is? That's why I defer to scholars and say the answer must come from within islam. I could prefer that everyone would be a White Anglo Saxon Protestant but that has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever.
Politicians answer.
That is a scholar who is explaining why the apostasy law exists.
That is a scholar who is explaining why the apostasy law exists.
Does the law need abolished ?
And I'm saying other scholars say it doesn't need to exist.
Are you getting that this is a problem within Islam?
It's arrogant if not laughable when non-Muslims who haven't a clue what the Quran says or doesn't say, try to sit around and decide on Islamic theology.
And I'm saying other scholars say it doesn't need to exist.
Are you getting that this is a problem within Islam?
It's arrogant if not laughable when non-Muslims who haven't a clue what the Quran says or doesn't say, try to sit around and decide on Islamic theology.
So then your a Muslim. If not then your are arrogant and laughable for your opinions.
The quote from apostasy was from a Shiekh, who is oddly enough a Muslim.
So then your a Muslim. If not then your are arrogant and laughable for your opinions.
The quote from apostasy was from a Shiekh, who is oddly enough a Muslim.
Does the law on apostasy need abolished ?
No I'm not trying to decide anything for Islam. I'm only pointing out that a lot of what is said about Islam is misinformation, based on what scholars say (not what I say).
I could post hundred of quotes from Muslims who don't believe in death for apostasy,
All it proves is that every Muslim does not interpret Islam in the same way.
If Islamic scholars come to the agreement that the Quran doesn't specify death for apostasy, but that this was added later, then they will decide on their own, to abolish the law.
Do you realize no one here is in a position to tell Islam what their religion is? That's why I defer to scholars
Why don't we look at the scholar's you kept citing and they signed the letter that stated.
"Hudud punishments are fixed in the Qur’an and Hadith and are unquestionably obligatory in Islamic Law"
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
-http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/052-sbt.php#004.052.260
Your dishonesty which is apparent to everyone is that you actually ignore scholar's when it doesn't suit your agenda.
The Quran is the word of Allah. Hadith aren't necessarily reliable.
punishment for apostasy exists in the quran.
They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."
-4:89
(So take not Awliya' from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah. But if they turn back,) if they abandon Hijrah, as Al-`Awfi reported from Ibn `Abbas. As-Suddi said that this part of the Ayah means, "If they make their disbelief public.''
-Ibn Kathir
Hadith is used to give proper context, which you yourself kept arguing for.
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
-http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/052-sbt.php#004.052.260
Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
-http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/084-sbt.php#009.084.057
Narrated Abu Musa:
A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle
-http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/089-sbt.php#009.089.271
Btw you just contradicted your scholar's even though you stated to rely on them for interpreting Islam, again they signed the letter thus:
"Hudud punishments are fixed in the Qur’an and Hadith and are unquestionably obligatory in Islamic Law"
You contradict yourself in your attempts to excuse Islam.
A problem is that some are trying to turn the argument against ISIS around and attack the Islamic scholars who are attacking ISIS. That doesn't mean that ISIS isn't horrific and doesn't give it any validity as a religious group. It seems more reasonable to agree with the scholars, on that issue, at least.
A problem is that some are trying to turn the argument against ISIS around and attack the Islamic scholars who are attacking ISIS. That doesn't mean that ISIS isn't horrific and doesn't give it any validity as a religious group. It seems more reasonable to agree with the scholars, on that issue, at least.
You are the one who disavowed your own scholar's interpretation of Islam where they support the punishments of apostasy.
As 120 signed the letter that stated thus:
"Hudud punishments are fixed in the Qur’an and Hadith and are unquestionably obligatory in Islamic Law"
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
-http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/052-sbt.php#004.052.260
Every scholar you have given us to take seriously, not the least of which is this 120 scholars, support killing apostates.
Furthermore if the focus on the discussion is ISIS' taking inspiration from their own religion in many of their acts, then we can look at the quran and hadith which they themselves explicitly cite.
Jihad
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
-9:29
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
-http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/002-sbt.php#001.002.025
It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for the right affairs rest with Allah.
-http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/001-smt.php#001.0030
Slavery
"Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty."
-33:50
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah her pleased with him) reported that at the Battle of Hanain Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger (may peace te upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (iv. 24)" (i. e. they were lawful for them when their 'Idda period came to an end).
-http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/008-smt.php#008.3432
The greatest thing about your continued posting on this matter is that you demonstrate exactly the problem with religion, where you can hate a group so long as all of society hates them, but you will defend religion with as much nonsense as you can gather when it clearly encourages slavery and war onto innocent people.
Why do you keep making comments about Islamic scholars as if they are aligned with ISIS. They aren't. It's very misleading. It's a discussion of ISIS.
You stop taking my replies out of context.
I didn't way scholars supported ISIS, what I said is one day they will change the laws, specifically apostasy laws which what anyone who attempts to leave IS will be charged with.
If you interpret scholars who support IS because they don't abolish such laws then that is a conclusion which you came to on your own.
I didn't way scholars supported ISIS, what I said is one day they will change the laws, specifically apostasy laws which what anyone who attempts to leave IS will be charged with.
If you interpret scholars who support IS because they don't abolish such laws then that is a conclusion which you came to on your own.
Not quoting you exactly, haven't you implied that ISIS is just an extension of sharia?
I wouldn't diginify questions about apostasy with a yes or no response, because I've already made it clear I find it objectionable and the idea that anyone on this thread supports or would support the death penalty for it, is silly.
Not quoting you exactly, haven't you implied that ISIS is just an extension of sharia?
I wouldn't diginify questions about apostasy with a yes or no response, because I've already made it clear I find it objectionable and the idea that anyone on this thread supports or would support the death penalty for it, is silly.
ISIS enforcer Sharia Law, that is confirmed by world media.
Maybe the British Muslim on the way Syria want to join the unIslamic State, establish unIslamic Sharia Law along with 50,000 other unIslamic Muslims.
Silence means complicity. Apostasy laws are barbaric, outdated, unfit for purpose and breach Human Rights, it should not be difficult for anyone to say otherwise.
It's terrible, but another way of looking at it is the bigger and more destructive they are, the more others will rise up to turn against them and destroy them. It seems as if some recruits realized too late that the criminals they joined up with aren't Islamic.
It's terrible, but another way of looking at it is the bigger and more destructive they are, the more others will rise up to turn against them and destroy them. It seems as if some recruits realized too late that the criminals they joined up with aren't Islamic.
Or, maybe instead of murdering helpless victims, raping little girls and wanton destruction they realised they might have to fight people who were more than capable of fighting back and had second thoughts.
It's terrible, but another way of looking at it is the bigger and more destructive they are, the more others will rise up to turn against them and destroy them. It seems as if some recruits realized too late that the criminals they joined up with aren't Islamic.
The unIslamic Muslims jihadists who want to leave because they realised it's not 'Call of Duty' and that bullets actually hurt.
Some wanted to leave because their IPhones don't work. Nothing to do with IS being 'unIslamic'.
Comments
Qur'an doesn't. Hadith does and Sharia Law is based on both.
Is making people pay the jizya tax Islamic ?
Do you think the apostasy laws are outdated, unfit for purpose and need to be abolished ?
The Quran is the word of Allah. Hadith aren't necessarily reliable.
You waste a lot of time trying to make it look as if ISIS and Islam are one and the same
Your questions to that end are transparent.
Again, Islamic laws can't be outdated if they aren't based on the Quran in the first place.
Bukari is accepted as the most authentic.
Do you think the laws needs to be abolished ? Seems it's difficult for you to give a basic answer.
can you answer why you like to cherry pick? Seriously I'm not going to respond to snippets any longer.
Do you realize no one here is in a position to tell Islam what their religion is? That's why I defer to scholars and say the answer must come from within islam. I could prefer that everyone would be a White Anglo Saxon Protestant but that has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever.
Politicians answer.
That is a scholar who is explaining why the apostasy law exists.
Does the law need abolished ?
And I'm saying other scholars say it doesn't need to exist.
Are you getting that this is a problem within Islam?
It's arrogant if not laughable when non-Muslims who haven't a clue what the Quran says or doesn't say, try to sit around and decide on Islamic theology.
So then your a Muslim. If not then your are arrogant and laughable for your opinions.
The quote from apostasy was from a Shiekh, who is oddly enough a Muslim.
Does the law on apostasy need abolished ?
No I'm not trying to decide anything for Islam. I'm only pointing out that a lot of what is said about Islam is misinformation, based on what scholars say (not what I say).
I could post hundred of quotes from Muslims who don't believe in death for apostasy,
All it proves is that every Muslim does not interpret Islam in the same way.
If Islamic scholars come to the agreement that the Quran doesn't specify death for apostasy, but that this was added later, then they will decide on their own, to abolish the law.
"Hudud punishments are fixed in the Qur’an and Hadith and are unquestionably obligatory in Islamic Law"
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
-http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/052-sbt.php#004.052.260
Your dishonesty which is apparent to everyone is that you actually ignore scholar's when it doesn't suit your agenda. punishment for apostasy exists in the quran.
They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."
-4:89
(So take not Awliya' from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah. But if they turn back,) if they abandon Hijrah, as Al-`Awfi reported from Ibn `Abbas. As-Suddi said that this part of the Ayah means, "If they make their disbelief public.''
-Ibn Kathir
Hadith is used to give proper context, which you yourself kept arguing for.
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
-http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/052-sbt.php#004.052.260
Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
-http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/084-sbt.php#009.084.057
Narrated Abu Musa:
A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle
-http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/089-sbt.php#009.089.271
Btw you just contradicted your scholar's even though you stated to rely on them for interpreting Islam, again they signed the letter thus:
"Hudud punishments are fixed in the Qur’an and Hadith and are unquestionably obligatory in Islamic Law"
You contradict yourself in your attempts to excuse Islam.
As 120 signed the letter that stated thus:
"Hudud punishments are fixed in the Qur’an and Hadith and are unquestionably obligatory in Islamic Law"
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
-http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/052-sbt.php#004.052.260
Every scholar you have given us to take seriously, not the least of which is this 120 scholars, support killing apostates.
Furthermore if the focus on the discussion is ISIS' taking inspiration from their own religion in many of their acts, then we can look at the quran and hadith which they themselves explicitly cite.
Jihad
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
-9:29
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
-http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/002-sbt.php#001.002.025
It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for the right affairs rest with Allah.
-http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/001-smt.php#001.0030
Slavery
"Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty."
-33:50
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah her pleased with him) reported that at the Battle of Hanain Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger (may peace te upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (iv. 24)" (i. e. they were lawful for them when their 'Idda period came to an end).
-http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/008-smt.php#008.3432
The greatest thing about your continued posting on this matter is that you demonstrate exactly the problem with religion, where you can hate a group so long as all of society hates them, but you will defend religion with as much nonsense as you can gather when it clearly encourages slavery and war onto innocent people.
Oh dear, how most unfortunate.
It's all so ****ing tragic, and weirdly ironic at the same time.
What a dreadful shame!
Maybe they'll sue if they ever get back here...
Join an Islamic army with 7th century values and end-up with 7th century punishments.
It wouldn't surprise me if that happened
Why do you keep making comments about Islamic scholars as if they are aligned with ISIS. They aren't. It's very misleading. It's a discussion of ISIS.
You stop taking my replies out of context.
I didn't way scholars supported ISIS, what I said is one day they will change the laws, specifically apostasy laws which what anyone who attempts to leave IS will be charged with.
If you interpret scholars who support IS because they don't abolish such laws then that is a conclusion which you came to on your own.
Not quoting you exactly, haven't you implied that ISIS is just an extension of sharia?
I wouldn't diginify questions about apostasy with a yes or no response, because I've already made it clear I find it objectionable and the idea that anyone on this thread supports or would support the death penalty for it, is silly.
ISIS enforcer Sharia Law, that is confirmed by world media.
Maybe the British Muslim on the way Syria want to join the unIslamic State, establish unIslamic Sharia Law along with 50,000 other unIslamic Muslims.
Silence means complicity. Apostasy laws are barbaric, outdated, unfit for purpose and breach Human Rights, it should not be difficult for anyone to say otherwise.
It's terrible, but another way of looking at it is the bigger and more destructive they are, the more others will rise up to turn against them and destroy them. It seems as if some recruits realized too late that the criminals they joined up with aren't Islamic.
Or, maybe instead of murdering helpless victims, raping little girls and wanton destruction they realised they might have to fight people who were more than capable of fighting back and had second thoughts.
The unIslamic Muslims jihadists who want to leave because they realised it's not 'Call of Duty' and that bullets actually hurt.
Some wanted to leave because their IPhones don't work. Nothing to do with IS being 'unIslamic'.