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Can anyone explain the benefits of increased Islamic influence in the UK?

trevgotrevgo Posts: 28,241
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I mean, I'd just like to know.

We are bludgeoned into accepting it as part of the wonderous multicultural experiment, shifted into top gear by the last Labour government, but I would like to know what Islam brings to the table of a country that has gone through a rapid change in the past 4 decades. What does it contribute to the progress in empowering women, acceptance of homosexuality and the legitimising of their relationships? Steps to increase animal welfare? General social progression.

I've asked this on other forums to be met with a stony silence.
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    Amaretto2Amaretto2 Posts: 2,949
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    Chicken Tikka Masala is often quoted.


    But, yes, increasing religious influence is never a good thing in a supposedly progressive society so I'm not going to go out celebrating the "diversity" it brings. Celebrating right wing, socially conservative ideologies isn't my thing.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 1,645
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    I can't see the benefits of any increased Christian influence either. Some people think that but for the ten commandments we'd be going round killing each other. No we wouldn't. All religions should be flushed down the toilet of history.
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 5,186
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    More prison converts having some extra purpose?
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    PrestonAlPrestonAl Posts: 10,342
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    If only we could ship the religious off to australia, then put a blanket ban on any others coming here.
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    CSJBCSJB Posts: 6,188
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    trevgo wrote: »
    I mean, I'd just like to know.

    We are bludgeoned into accepting it as part of the wonderous multicultural experiment, shifted into top gear by the last Labour government, but I would like to know what Islam brings to the table of a country that has gone through a rapid change in the past 4 decades. What does it contribute to the progress in empowering women, acceptance of homosexuality and the legitimising of their relationships? Steps to increase animal welfare? General social progression.

    I've asked this on other forums to be met with a stony silence.


    None at all.
    But there are a persecuted minority,so we must give them all the help they need spreading there intolerant views.
    Until such a time they become the majority and we can feel all
    righteous when trying to defend what rights we have left.
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    trevgotrevgo Posts: 28,241
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    Amaretto2 wrote: »
    Chicken Tikka Masala is often quoted.

    The story goes that a diner in Veeraswamy (Regents Street) once asked for a sauce to go with his Tikka, as he was finding it too dry. And thus the British national dish was born, firmly within Blighty.

    I am a curry addict and have been for donkeys years. Other than the method of slaughter (of which I strongly disapprove), it has nothing to do with the religion, which is what I am asking about.
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    deptfordbakerdeptfordbaker Posts: 22,368
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    Trying to sell immigration on the basis that we all benefit culturally is not one of Ed Miliband's most convincing arguments. For a start he never says why, relying on the loyal Labour audience not to drop him in it and ask. Maybe I should attend one day, pretending I am a loyal Labour supporter. ;)

    Also greater numbers don't equal greater culture or greater diversity either. Whether there are a thousand Muslims or a million Muslims in the UK, the culture and cultural diversity is the same.

    Cameron has started talking about how much Muslims have done for this country recently, yet again refuses to elaborate. I can't really put my finger on the exact benefits I have to admit either. I have noticed Muslims collecting for charity in the high street, but it never seems to be for non Islamic related charities. Always things like help for the Pakistan earthquake victims.

    We were a non Islamic country for several thousand years and were just fine, so I don't see any reason to change that.
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    AdsAds Posts: 37,057
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    OP I think you are making the common error of stating all Muslims share the same culture, beliefs, lifestyles etc. In fact Muslims vary dramatically depending on where they are from - eg Turkish Muslims from Istanbul are very different from Pakistani Muslims, and Muslims from Dubai are very different again.

    In terms of Islam on a general level, it shares the problems that a lot of religions have in terms of homophobia, although Islam seems to have a especially unpleasant misogynistic streak. I don't think Islam is a positive influence on UK society, but then again I don't feel its fair to single Islam out, as I struggle to see how most religions have a positive influence on 21st century Britain.

    Most of the problems connected with Islam are in fact more cultural problems, especially from the Asian sub continent - eg most the child sex gang stuff has been from Pakistani Muslims. UK culture is certainly preferable to their culture and I don't feel enriched from having it here in such large numbers. However you have to separate the culture from the people, as I have met many perfectly nice and reasonable people from that part of the world.
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    edExedEx Posts: 13,460
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    We were a non Islamic country for several thousand years and were just fine, so I don't see any reason to change that.
    We were a non Christian country for most of those several thousand years too. How about we ditch monotheism completely? The "My GOD is the only TRUE GOD" nonsense is the biggest obstacle against people just living together and getting on. Islamist hardliners are just the latest incarnation of the intolerance that philosophy breeds.

    Bring back paganism I say.
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    trevgotrevgo Posts: 28,241
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    Ads wrote: »
    OP I think you are making the common error of stating all Muslims share the same culture, beliefs, lifestyles etc.

    I'm doing no such thing. I am simply asking a genuine question - and it applies to all flavours of Islam. Criticism of it is barely tolerated, and we are supposed to embrace it as part of the modern world, so I'd just like to be told of the benefits.
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    charon7charon7 Posts: 295
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    The EDL has a number of shortcomings as an organisation, but their core message that Islam, militant or otherwise, has no place in Western society is one that many are now finding increasingly difficult to disagree with.
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    Will_BennettsWill_Bennetts Posts: 3,054
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    Trying to sell immigration on the basis that we all benefit culturally is not one of Ed Miliband's most convincing arguments. For a start he never says why, relying on the loyal Labour audience not to drop him in it and ask. Maybe I should attend one day, pretending I am a loyal Labour supporter. ;)

    Also greater numbers don't equal greater culture or greater diversity either. Whether there are a thousand Muslims or a million Muslims in the UK, the culture and cultural diversity is the same.

    Cameron has started talking about how much Muslims have done for this country recently, yet again refuses to elaborate. I can't really put my finger on the exact benefits I have to admit either. I have noticed Muslims collecting for charity in the high street, but it never seems to be for non Islamic related charities. Always things like help for the Pakistan earthquake victims.

    We were a non Islamic country for several thousand years and were just fine, so I don't see any reason to change that.
    Re your point about charity. Muslim groups have collected for various non Islamic causes most notably . Remembrance Day , collecting flowers to remember Lee Rigby , plus the Leeds Muslim community helped in the search for Shannon Matthews and iirc a mosque in Cumbria fundraised for people whose homes were damaged during some bad flooding.
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    redhatmattredhatmatt Posts: 5,197
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    What benefits have Christians brought to this country apart from terrorism and child ****ing? Ironically the same benefits that Islam is accused of bringing now.
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    deptfordbakerdeptfordbaker Posts: 22,368
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    Ads wrote: »
    OP I think you are making the common error of stating all Muslims share the same culture, beliefs, lifestyles etc. In fact Muslims vary dramatically depending on where they are from - eg Turkish Muslims from Istanbul are very different from Pakistani Muslims, and Muslims from Dubai are very different again.

    In terms of Islam on a general level, it shares the problems that a lot of religions have in terms of homophobia, although Islam seems to have a especially unpleasant misogynistic streak. I don't think Islam is a positive influence on UK society, but then again I don't feel its fair to single Islam out, as I struggle to see how most religions have a positive influence on 21st century Britain.

    Most of the problems connected with Islam are in fact more cultural problems, especially from the Asian sub continent - eg most the child sex gang stuff has been from Pakistani Muslims. UK culture is certainly preferable to their culture and I don't feel enriched from having it here in such large numbers. However you have to separate the culture from the people, as I have met many perfectly nice and reasonable people from that part of the world.

    Yes, it is important to separate the culture from the religion.

    What we should have done is capped immigration from all countries. Prevented communities based on a single immigrant group from forming and allowed the low numbers over a much greater period of time to integrate within English areas.

    Its the one thing I agree with Ken Livingston on, apart from the Ugandan Asians, post war immigration has been severally mismanaged by all governments. Where we differ is I think the Blair government was verging on traitorous negligence in how badly they mismanage it.
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    northantsgirlnorthantsgirl Posts: 4,663
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    Does anyone who isn't a Muslim want a greater role for Islam, just as anyone who isn't a Catholic or a Jew want a greater influence for those faiths?
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    CapablancaCapablanca Posts: 5,130
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    I don't think there are any tangible benefits other than meeting a few nice people; though nice people can come from any background so this is nothing unique to Islam. Islam to me seems overly austere - where's the fun, music, dance?

    I think the problem is that in recent years there have been so many immigrants from Islamic backgrounds that many of the new arrivals are existing in quite a separate sphere. Modern technology doesn't help as they can watch their own TV and our benefits system enables people to just bumble along and not integrate or even learn English.

    Unfortunately we've had this large influx of people during a period of time when Islam itself is split and the fundamentalists seem to be gaining more traction than the moderates. 20 years ago it would have been rare in London to see a British Pakistani girl covering up. To be honest when I was at school in the 80s I wouldn't have known who was from an Indian or Pakistani background - that wouldn't be the case now.
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    edExedEx Posts: 13,460
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    Does anyone who isn't a Muslim want a greater role for Islam, just as anyone who isn't a Catholic or a Jew want a greater influence for those faiths?
    See my comment above for my answer on that. IMO monotheism is bad for the human race.
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    ChizzlefaceChizzleface Posts: 8,221
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    edEx wrote: »
    See my comment above for my answer on that. IMO monotheism is bad for the human race.

    Theism in general hasn't worked out too well - perhaps it's time to give secularity the reins. No religion should hold sway over a nation's people.
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    flagpoleflagpole Posts: 44,641
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    The benefit is that it goes to the very core of our values that people should be able to follow whatever religion they wish.
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    Saskia44Saskia44 Posts: 2,412
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    trevgo wrote: »
    I mean, I'd just like to know.

    We are bludgeoned into accepting it as part of the wonderous multicultural experiment, shifted into top gear by the last Labour government, but I would like to know what Islam brings to the table of a country that has gone through a rapid change in the past 4 decades. What does it contribute to the progress in empowering women, acceptance of homosexuality and the legitimising of their relationships? Steps to increase animal welfare? General social progression.

    I've asked this on other forums to be met with a stony silence.

    It is a very interesting and relevant question.

    Tolerance - that would be a no.
    Religous tolerance - another no.
    Freedom of speech - nope
    Freedom of thought - nope
    Female equality - another no.
    Better treatment for animals - no again.

    No positives that I can see.

    The only ones I could see that would benefit would be Islamic men.
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    andyknandykn Posts: 66,849
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    Amaretto2 wrote: »
    Chicken Tikka Masala is often quoted.

    Where? That's not even an Islamic dish. This wouldn't be the right not having an argument and making things up again, would it?
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    trevgotrevgo Posts: 28,241
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    flagpole wrote: »
    The benefit is that it goes to the very core of our values that people should be able to follow whatever religion they wish.

    That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Please try again.

    And to those mentioning Christianity - yes, a lot of repression came from that also, but it is in steep decline and we have made excellent progress in shaking off it's shackles in my lifetime. Sadly, we had a fundamentalist as Prime Minister for 11 years and he expanded faith schools, so there is work to be done there.

    So again I ask the question - where is the benefit in replacing it with an even more proscriptive, regressive and as Capblanca so accurately describes it, austere religion?

    Of course it's a loaded question, but I'm open to persuasion if somebody can put a convincing case. If not, then the obvious conclusion has to be that it should not be welcomed. Why should we welcome something that provides no benefit to the country?
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    edExedEx Posts: 13,460
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    Theism in general hasn't worked out too well - perhaps it's time to give secularity the reins. No religion should hold sway over a nation's people.
    Polytheism does at least open the minds of followers to the idea that others can think or behave differently without being wrong. It can lead to a sort of secularism by ensuring that people do not believe the state should favour any particular religion over another, even though the same people might be very religious themselves.

    Compare that to followers of monotheistic religions and their desire to convert everyone and its clear which is the bad philosophy as far as faith is concerned.
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    Ethel_FredEthel_Fred Posts: 34,127
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    It annoys the hell out of right wingers
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    DavserDavser Posts: 2,521
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    trevgo wrote: »
    I'm doing no such thing. I am simply asking a genuine question - and it applies to all flavours of Islam. Criticism of it is barely tolerated, and we are supposed to embrace it as part of the modern world, so I'd just like to be told of the benefits.

    It gives a sense of community to its followers
    It gives meaning to existence to its followers
    in fact substitute any religion and the above applies.

    As for criticism - go to America and criticise Christianity and see how you get on.
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