Which means you can't say they were killed. And, as I pointed out, there's far more evidence to suggest they weren't.
Again. There's actually no evidence to support either claim. Someone watching the movie will - quite rightly - assume the super villains were killed.
It's only by hearing about Donner's vision that we learn otherwise.
However, until it's in the movie and canon, the whole thing is a nebulous pot of goo.
So, to close this, the absolute facts are that the truth is we only have the canon of the movie to go on, and what happened to those villains in the ice after the movie ended, is entirely up to you.
Again. There's actually no evidence to support either claim. Someone watching the movie will - quite rightly - assume the super villains were killed.
It's only by hearing about Donner's vision that we learn otherwise.
However, until it's in the movie and canon, the whole thing is a nebulous pot of goo.
So, to close this, the absolute facts are that the truth is we only have the canon of the movie to go on, and what happened to those villains in the ice after the movie ended, is entirely up to you.
I agree, this is a pretty pointless argument if i'm honest, nobody knows for sure what happened after Superman threw them down the ice pit (i'd love to know what Lester would say though). The only version where we can say they definitely survived and were taken into custody is the non-canon TV edit. The theatrical ending is ambiguous.
... If we're meant to believe that Superman set up an elaborate trap to subdue him beneath the fortress without killing him then how come we don't see the end result of this?
The specifics of what happened once the villains fell into the holes is kind of besides the point, and would have made for an impractical sequence at that point of the movie. Same as grinding things to a halt by including the scene where the villains and Luthor were taken into custody. You can just see the discussion in the editing room.
Edit-dude:Sooo, we're kind of running a little bit long, and we still have that idiotic super-kiss to get to. Should we drop the scene with the Arctic Patrol?
Lester: Zure, I zink it iz clear enuf. Lez cut it (read this in Mark Kermode's voice, plz)
All we see is Zod fall into the mist while screaming. I don't think that people believeing that Superman killed Zod at the end of Superman II makes them an "imbecile" quite frankly,
No, but they are when they take the ending so literally that they also claim Luthor was killed too or left to freeze to death.
and if what you say is what happened then it seems like Superman II's finale is totally riddled with plot holes.
The plot remains intact, no holes. At worst, certain aspects of the plot may be a little unclear to some, but that's a different issue.
surely if Zod had survived he would have returned and flown back up immediately.
Well, no. He's lost his powers.
Zod and the other Kryptonians also had their powers inhibited by the fortress so it's not like they would have been able to even survive such a big fall.
When was the last time you looked at the movie? It's not even a very long drop. I doubt they even sprained an ankle. In fact, it doesn't appear to be that much more of a drop than when Ursa throws Lex off her back during the villains arrival a few minutes earlier.
So, to close this, the absolute facts are that the truth is we only have the canon of the movie to go on, and what happened to those villains in the ice after the movie ended, is entirely up to you.
I will assume that by "you" you mean me. I gracefully accept the responsibility of determining the final fate of Zod. By the power vested in me by DS user Karis, I hereby declare Zod... ALIVE!!!
Case closed. You're welcome.
Now, check back next week for my interesting, and some say may say "surprising" ruling that Superman Returns was not a sequel to Superman II.
The specifics of what happened once the villains fell into the holes is kind of besides the point, and would have made for an impractical sequence at that point of the movie. Same as grinding things to a halt by including the scene where the villains and Luthor were taken into custody. You can just see the discussion in the editing room.
Edit-dude:"Sooo, we're kind of running a little bit long, and we still have that idiotic super-kiss to get to. Should we drop the scene with the Arctic Patrol?"
Lester: Zure, I zink it iz clear enuf. Lez cut it (read this in Mark Kermode's voice, plz)
No, but they are when they take the ending so literally that they also claim Luthor was killed too or left to freeze to death.
The plot remains intact, no holes. At worst, certain aspects of the plot may be a little unclear to some, but that's a different issue.
Well, no. He's lost his powers.
When was the last time you looked at the movie? It's not even a very long drop. I doubt they even sprained an ankle. In fact, it doesn't appear to be that much more of a drop than when Ursa throws Lex off her back during the villains arrival a few minutes earlier.
I will assume that by "you" you mean me. I gracefully accept the responsibility of determining the final fate of Zod. By the power vested in me by DS user Karis, I hereby declare Zod... ALIVE!!!
Case closed. You're welcome.
Now, check back next week for my interesting, and some say may say "surprising" ruling that Superman Returns was not a sequel to Superman II.
Wait, what!?
So even though you see Zod disappear through the mist with no visibility to the bottom you just know how deep it is anyway because it supports your claim? Don't be so ignorant.
The specifics of what happened once the villains fell into the holes is kind of besides the point, and would have made for an impractical sequence at that point of the movie. Same as grinding things to a halt by including the scene where the villains and Luthor were taken into custody. You can just see the discussion in the editing room.
Edit-dude:"Sooo, we're kind of running a little bit long, and we still have that idiotic super-kiss to get to. Should we drop the scene with the Arctic Patrol?"
Lester: Zure, I zink it iz clear enuf. Lez cut it (read this in Mark Kermode's voice, plz)
I don't think a 2 minute scene showing them getting taken into custody would have hurt the film, especially when you consider that Superman: The Movie was 143 minutes and Superman II was "only" 127 minutes. They could easily have just slotted in the scene from the TV edit showing them getting taken into custody if they'd really wanted to drive home the point that they survived.
No, but they are when they take the ending so literally that they also claim Luthor was killed too or left to freeze to death.
Obviously Luthor doesn't die though since he turns up later in the sequels, and also seems quite jovial about his encounter with Superman. There's no evidence to suggest that Lex was even still in the Fortress at the very end of the film, whereas it is at least suggested that Zod and the other Kryptonians were still buried in there somewhere since we don't see them fly out.
Exactly, so how are they supposed to have survived the fall? The distance that Zod appears to fall before entering the mist would at least break his legs, and that's assuming that the floor is directly below the mist.
When was the last time you looked at the movie? It's not even a very long drop. I doubt they even sprained an ankle. In fact, it doesn't appear to be that much more of a drop than when Ursa throws Lex off her back during the villains arrival a few minutes earlier.
Admittedly it's been a while since i watched it, but having had a look at a clip of the ending on YouTube, you can clearly hear Ursa scream for quite a while as she's falling which would suggest that the hole is fairly deep. So if they'd lost their powers it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that they survived (imo).
Just listen to how long Ursa screams before the scream fades, and we don't even hear a crumpling sound, which definitely makes it seem like it's a deep hole.
Anyway, we're going around in circles here, i'm not going to convice you that they're dead, and you're not going to convinve me that they're alive, so let's just agree to disagree
Wait, what!?
So even though you see Zod disappear through the mist with no visibility to the bottom you just know how deep it is anyway because it supports your claim? Don't be so ignorant.
I said it "doesn't appear to be...". But looking at the overall tiered structure of the Fortress, and the aforementioned fact that the unbelievably accident prone and mentally unstable Lois Lane, who might have deliberately thrown herself down one of these holes to make a point, was left to wander around the Fortress unsupervised earlier in the movie, it's reasonable to assume they didn't present much of a hazard to anyone. See? Intelligent reasoning.
Anyway, we're going around in circles here, i'm not going to convice you that they're dead, and you're not going to convinve me that they're alive, so let's just agree to disagree
No, we don't. Look again. We see him flying off with Lois. If Lester (and Donner) made any mistakes, it was in overestimating the intelligence of their audience. It should be clear to anyone with even just half a brain that Superman didn't kill the villains, the scene and the tone of the movie simply don't play that way, but apparently some decided to believe the opposite, and that Superman flew off with his girlfriend and left the "greatest criminal mind of our time" to either freeze to death, or he destroyed the Fortress around him and likely killed him. Now, only a complete imbecile would suggest this was what actually happened, but that's essentially where your argument takes you, if you claim the villains were killed.[/QUOTE]
I think that both Lester and Donner both being of the old school of movie makers do kind of estimate of what is need by the audience! Unfortunatelty movie studios are run by suits whose bottom line is the money. You can say what you like about those old time studio heads (and if you don't know who they are Google them!) Jack Warner, Louis B Mayer, Harry Cohn, Darryl Zanuck etc, at least they had an inckling of what would sell!
I think that both Lester and Donner both being of the old school of movie makers do kind of estimate of what is need by the audience!
Right, and also, it's worth remembering that the 70s were a very different time. Many consider it the best era of American cinema, and that both movies and audiences back then were perhaps a little more sophisticated, as cinema hadn't completely descended into mindless CG and effects spectacles. Although the Superman and Star Wars movies could also be said to have somewhat paved the way for that trend. As such, it was probably fine to leave out the scene where the villains are taken into custody, and maybe include it for the less sophisticated TV audience later.
I have to say it never struck me for a moment that they might be dead. It simply wouldn't fit with the tone of those movies at all.
Exactly. Even if you ignore the overwhelming evidence I've already mentioned, there's just nothing about how the scene plays, or indeed the overall tone of the movie that suggests anyone was killed.
This thread is hilarious! The supercilious manner people will argue over a comic-book movie…just, wow!
Anyway, back on topic…I thought MoS was a fun film. Certainly a great ‘return’ for Superman (after the problematic Superman Returns, imo).
Story-wise, I have to say I enjoyed the first two acts much more than the final act, but on the whole I was really impressed with the cast involved, and the special effects were exceptional in some scenes.
Oh dear. :rolleyes: If you want to play, at least put some effort into it.
No one's playing though because you refuse to see any one else's perspective or to draw a line across the thread.
It appears to be your opinion or nothing and there are some very fine comments made on this thread.
An accurate summary posting both sides has been made by myself and CJClarke and several others on this topic, yet you're still trying to defend an opinion that has no merit. Because unless it's in the movie or explicitly stated elsewhere, it's up to the viewer to make their own mind up.
One really cannot be more reasonable than that in cases like this.
Edit: My personal opinion is that they're 'dead'. However, it's pretty hard to kill superpowered Kryptonians (even depowered ones). So I reckon they're still down there, waiting... recharging... They'll be back one day to seek their revenge.
I have absolutely nothing to base this on other than the Death of Superman. I just like the thought that they're not really dead. Just in a place where they can't really harm anyone... for a while.
If you consider your previous "contributions" three displays of you making an effort, then I suppose, no, don't bother trying again.
Exactly. Even if you ignore the overwhelming evidence I've already mentioned, there's just nothing about how the scene plays, or indeed the overall tone of the movie that suggests anyone was killed.
There isn't any overwhelming evidence other than your constant insistence that the death of Zod doesn't fit in with the tone of the film in your opinion.
You refuse to acknowledge he could have and probably was killed by a long fall into a pit as a mortal man. The screams from the bint suggest it was a deep fall and only Supes himself could have survived a drop that far.
It's ok to disagree but when you get personal then I'm afraid you've lost the argument right there.
It appears to be your opinion or nothing and there are some very fine comments made on this thread.
Thank you.
I just like the thought that they're not really dead. Just in a place where they can't really harm anyone... for a while.
Sounds reasonable. I'm perfectly fine with the idea that we don't know exactly what happened. I just presented the intelligent and overwhelming case for them not being dead. Whichever way you look at it, there's no evidence whatsoever to prove Superman killed anyone in Superman II. Not so in the god-awful MoS, where the evidence is clear for anyone to see.
Sounds reasonable. I'm perfectly fine with the idea that we don't know exactly what happened. I just presented the intelligent and overwhelming case for them not being dead. Whichever way you look at it, there's no evidence whatsoever to prove Superman killed anyone in Superman II. Not so in the god-awful MoS, where the evidence is clear for anyone to see.
So just because you saw a death in MoS you can't possibly accept the possibility of an implied death in Superman 2?
Wow.
So just because you saw a death in MoS you can't possibly accept the possibility of an implied death in Superman 2?
Wow.
The two things have nothing to do with each other. In MoS, we clearly see the brutal killing of Zod, his lifeless body, and Snyderman's reaction to what he had done. In Superman II, you have none of that, you have the exact opposite. A villain being dispatched with in a non-lethal fashion, and a relieved Superman, who clearly hasn't compromised his ethical code not to kill.
The two things have nothing to do with each other. In MoS, we clearly see the brutal killing of Zod, his lifeless body, and Snyderman's reaction to what he had done. In Superman II, you have none of that, you have the exact opposite. A villain being dispatched with in a non-lethal fashion, and a relieved Superman, who clearly hasn't compromised his ethical code not to kill.
In your head maybe. However, you've conveniently (and constantly) ignored the points raised here...
There isn't any overwhelming evidence other than your constant insistence that the death of Zod doesn't fit in with the tone of the film in your opinion.
You refuse to acknowledge he could have and probably was killed by a long fall into a pit as a mortal man. The screams from the bint suggest it was a deep fall and only Supes himself could have survived a drop that far.
It's ok to disagree but when you get personal then I'm afraid you've lost the argument right there.
It's no good spouting on about tone of the film etc.
How does a mortal person survive a fall that far??
How does a mortal person survive a fall that far??
Depends what's down there. I wouldn't worry too much about the weird acoustics in the Fortress, and I've heard similar screams from girls going down a long water slide. None of them were killed, as far as I know. But we don't need to speculate too much, because we see the same thing happening in the TV edit, and Ursa obviously survives there. Similarly, in the next movie, the same director has Gus Gorman fall off the top of a skyscraper and survive without as much as a scratch. As I've already explained, this is not a series of movies that adhere particularly strictly to real world dynamics. It's light hearted, borderline cartoony family entertainment, and you're obviously taking it much too literally.
Well, I don't much give a monkeys what happened to Zod in the original movie. It was all pretty silly anyway, and I preferred Donner's cut of Superman 2 to Lester's. Zod was way more interesting in that and a whole lot less camp. Either way, as a kid watching the film it always seemed to me to be a fall to his death. What's the point otherwise?
At the end of the day, to me in Man of Steel, Superman had no choice. Zod had already said for every one you save, we will kill a million more. He's already said he won't give up. Superman had absolutely no option, and when he had the chance he took it. This doesn't make him a murderer, and the idea that it does seems a bit daft to me.
Besides which, I've no doubt that these ambiguities will be explored in the sequel, as we've discussed earlier in the thread.
The specifics of what happened once the villains fell into the holes is kind of besides the point, and would have made for an impractical sequence at that point of the movie. Same as grinding things to a halt by including the scene where the villains and Luthor were taken into custody. You can just see the discussion in the editing room.
Edit-dude:Sooo, we're kind of running a little bit long, and we still have that idiotic super-kiss to get to. Should we drop the scene with the Arctic Patrol?
Lester: Zure, I zink it iz clear enuf. Lez cut it (read this in Mark Kermode's voice, plz)
were you thinking of the Salkind's accent there ^ ? 'cos Lester is an American .
Comments
Again. There's actually no evidence to support either claim. Someone watching the movie will - quite rightly - assume the super villains were killed.
It's only by hearing about Donner's vision that we learn otherwise.
However, until it's in the movie and canon, the whole thing is a nebulous pot of goo.
So, to close this, the absolute facts are that the truth is we only have the canon of the movie to go on, and what happened to those villains in the ice after the movie ended, is entirely up to you.
I agree, this is a pretty pointless argument if i'm honest, nobody knows for sure what happened after Superman threw them down the ice pit (i'd love to know what Lester would say though). The only version where we can say they definitely survived and were taken into custody is the non-canon TV edit. The theatrical ending is ambiguous.
Edit-dude:Sooo, we're kind of running a little bit long, and we still have that idiotic super-kiss to get to. Should we drop the scene with the Arctic Patrol?
Lester: Zure, I zink it iz clear enuf. Lez cut it (read this in Mark Kermode's voice, plz)
No, but they are when they take the ending so literally that they also claim Luthor was killed too or left to freeze to death.
The plot remains intact, no holes. At worst, certain aspects of the plot may be a little unclear to some, but that's a different issue.
Well, no. He's lost his powers.
When was the last time you looked at the movie? It's not even a very long drop. I doubt they even sprained an ankle. In fact, it doesn't appear to be that much more of a drop than when Ursa throws Lex off her back during the villains arrival a few minutes earlier.
I will assume that by "you" you mean me. I gracefully accept the responsibility of determining the final fate of Zod. By the power vested in me by DS user Karis, I hereby declare Zod... ALIVE!!!
Case closed. You're welcome.
Now, check back next week for my interesting, and some say may say "surprising" ruling that Superman Returns was not a sequel to Superman II.
Wait, what!?
So even though you see Zod disappear through the mist with no visibility to the bottom you just know how deep it is anyway because it supports your claim? Don't be so ignorant.
I don't think a 2 minute scene showing them getting taken into custody would have hurt the film, especially when you consider that Superman: The Movie was 143 minutes and Superman II was "only" 127 minutes. They could easily have just slotted in the scene from the TV edit showing them getting taken into custody if they'd really wanted to drive home the point that they survived.
Obviously Luthor doesn't die though since he turns up later in the sequels, and also seems quite jovial about his encounter with Superman. There's no evidence to suggest that Lex was even still in the Fortress at the very end of the film, whereas it is at least suggested that Zod and the other Kryptonians were still buried in there somewhere since we don't see them fly out.
Exactly, so how are they supposed to have survived the fall? The distance that Zod appears to fall before entering the mist would at least break his legs, and that's assuming that the floor is directly below the mist.
Admittedly it's been a while since i watched it, but having had a look at a clip of the ending on YouTube, you can clearly hear Ursa scream for quite a while as she's falling which would suggest that the hole is fairly deep. So if they'd lost their powers it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that they survived (imo).
Here's the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUORL-bvwA0
Just listen to how long Ursa screams before the scream fades, and we don't even hear a crumpling sound, which definitely makes it seem like it's a deep hole.
Anyway, we're going around in circles here, i'm not going to convice you that they're dead, and you're not going to convinve me that they're alive, so let's just agree to disagree
I accept your surrender.
No, we don't. Look again. We see him flying off with Lois. If Lester (and Donner) made any mistakes, it was in overestimating the intelligence of their audience. It should be clear to anyone with even just half a brain that Superman didn't kill the villains, the scene and the tone of the movie simply don't play that way, but apparently some decided to believe the opposite, and that Superman flew off with his girlfriend and left the "greatest criminal mind of our time" to either freeze to death, or he destroyed the Fortress around him and likely killed him. Now, only a complete imbecile would suggest this was what actually happened, but that's essentially where your argument takes you, if you claim the villains were killed.[/QUOTE]
I think that both Lester and Donner both being of the old school of movie makers do kind of estimate of what is need by the audience! Unfortunatelty movie studios are run by suits whose bottom line is the money. You can say what you like about those old time studio heads (and if you don't know who they are Google them!) Jack Warner, Louis B Mayer, Harry Cohn, Darryl Zanuck etc, at least they had an inckling of what would sell!
What, for the third time?
Exactly. Even if you ignore the overwhelming evidence I've already mentioned, there's just nothing about how the scene plays, or indeed the overall tone of the movie that suggests anyone was killed.
Anyway, back on topic…I thought MoS was a fun film. Certainly a great ‘return’ for Superman (after the problematic Superman Returns, imo).
Story-wise, I have to say I enjoyed the first two acts much more than the final act, but on the whole I was really impressed with the cast involved, and the special effects were exceptional in some scenes.
No one's playing though because you refuse to see any one else's perspective or to draw a line across the thread.
It appears to be your opinion or nothing and there are some very fine comments made on this thread.
An accurate summary posting both sides has been made by myself and CJClarke and several others on this topic, yet you're still trying to defend an opinion that has no merit. Because unless it's in the movie or explicitly stated elsewhere, it's up to the viewer to make their own mind up.
One really cannot be more reasonable than that in cases like this.
Edit: My personal opinion is that they're 'dead'. However, it's pretty hard to kill superpowered Kryptonians (even depowered ones). So I reckon they're still down there, waiting... recharging... They'll be back one day to seek their revenge.
I have absolutely nothing to base this on other than the Death of Superman. I just like the thought that they're not really dead. Just in a place where they can't really harm anyone... for a while.
There isn't any overwhelming evidence other than your constant insistence that the death of Zod doesn't fit in with the tone of the film in your opinion.
You refuse to acknowledge he could have and probably was killed by a long fall into a pit as a mortal man. The screams from the bint suggest it was a deep fall and only Supes himself could have survived a drop that far.
It's ok to disagree but when you get personal then I'm afraid you've lost the argument right there.
Sounds reasonable. I'm perfectly fine with the idea that we don't know exactly what happened. I just presented the intelligent and overwhelming case for them not being dead. Whichever way you look at it, there's no evidence whatsoever to prove Superman killed anyone in Superman II. Not so in the god-awful MoS, where the evidence is clear for anyone to see.
So just because you saw a death in MoS you can't possibly accept the possibility of an implied death in Superman 2?
Wow.
In your head maybe. However, you've conveniently (and constantly) ignored the points raised here...
It's no good spouting on about tone of the film etc.
How does a mortal person survive a fall that far??
At the end of the day, to me in Man of Steel, Superman had no choice. Zod had already said for every one you save, we will kill a million more. He's already said he won't give up. Superman had absolutely no option, and when he had the chance he took it. This doesn't make him a murderer, and the idea that it does seems a bit daft to me.
Besides which, I've no doubt that these ambiguities will be explored in the sequel, as we've discussed earlier in the thread.
were you thinking of the Salkind's accent there ^ ? 'cos Lester is an American .