As far as I'm concerned, Leeds is the end of the Midlands, and the start of the North. You've got about 180 miles from there before you hit the Scottish border just past Berwick.
The scon -v- scone thing is not a north south issue. It tends to go in bands up and down the country with some people in the "north" saying scon, some saying scone.
I personally say "scone" and always considered "scon" to be posh. Yet I know people who say "scon" and think "scone" is posh. The OED allows both pronunciations and says that traditionally "scon" was a more northern / working class.
Bread / cake products are some of the best "tells" when it comes to someone's origin. barm cake, bap, muffin, teacake, bread roll, stottie, bun (all of which I know people use to mean the round bread product you get your chips or other fillings on a sandwich).
I don't know what you mean by the rules of phonetics but if it relates to the orthography then this isn't a helpful guide to pronunciation.
bone, hone, lone, stone, phone would all suggest that the "correct" pronunciation is "scone" not "scon". yet how do we pronounce "gone" or "done"?
Phonetics is used to teach reading these days, and has specific rules about how words are correctly pronounced - along with some really nice kids software to explain it and act as mnemonics.
Ah, before my time so I am not really familiar with this teaching style, though it always struck me as odd.
How would these rules deal with the "scone" v "gone" issue? Would they just say that "gone" is an exception to the rule?
I did read it yes. I am aware of the change in English as I have a degree in linguistics, specialising in historical linguistics and language change.
I agree with what you have said, some of the characteristics of Scottish English are a result of historic changes not having gone that far north from the Oxford/Cambridge/London triangle where some linguistic change trends started.
However, Scottish English is also influenced in other ways from Scots and from Scots Gaelic.
The Irish also claim to have the "purest" form of English too, though after 1000 years of evolution I think it's safe to say that none of us sound anything like the speakers of Old English or even Middle English, apart from some isolated vowels.
Thanks, as do several places in the US, they actually have a dialect closer to 15thC and less corrupted, words like "dove" (in) and "gotten" are OE.
My degree is in Old and Middle English language and medieval history.
The Irish would, they also say they are descended from the fairy folk in The Tain. I agree re the other influences on the northern and scots dialect, particularly Norse.
To be fair, not many. "scone" rhyming with "stone" would seem to be the most logical but if the words derives from the gaelic word "sgonn" then actually it should rhyme with "gone".
But, if one doesn't attribute the invention of the nommy treat to the Scottish and assume the word "scone" derives from the Dutch "schoonbrood" then a longer vowel would be expected and so it should rhyme with "stone".
So we're all right. although those of us who say it to rhyme with "stone" are of course more righter than you lot!
Thanks, as do several places in the US, they actually have a dialect closer to 15thC and less corrupted, words like "dove" (in) and "gotten" are OE. My degree is in Old and Middle English language and medieval history.
The Irish would, they also say they are descended from the fairy folk in The Tain. I agree re the other influences on the northern and scots dialect, particularly Norse.
It's fascinating isn't it. Earlier this year the British Library did an exhibition on English from birth to modern times and the future. I asked my boyfriend to take me there for my Birthday treat! very sad I know!
I will forgive your blasphemy about anything American English being pure... we all know they corrupt the language and should be forced to speak the Queen's English etc etc
historically it was the River Trent that defined the Northern English boundary. Today it is considered by most to be the southernly line drawn by the county boundaries of Cheshire, Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire and East Yorkshire.
It's fascinating isn't it. Earlier this year the British Library did an exhibition on English from birth to modern times and the future. I asked my boyfriend to take me there for my Birthday treat! very sad I know!
I will forgive your blasphemy about anything American English being pure... we all know they corrupt the language and should be forced to speak the Queen's English etc etc
Ohhh get you! Blasphemy! lol!
"Gotten" is an OE word, it is actually one of my favourites! I agree totally about lazy American corruption of the language though - 24/7 makes me feel slightly ill. But recently I have become fascinated by "our" words that went over there centuries ago (and to over places like Aus, later), then fell out of use over here only to return from aboard to our derision and condemnation as a corruption of the language when what has happened is basically the language split and developed there from that point, retaining some OE and ME words we stopped using. I love some of the words that have cropped up here as new when they existed in ME.
And what about the new ones here, "fudging the issue" - i could scream!
Yes, I love language and agree with you totally, fascinating!
historically it was the River Trent that defined the Northern English boundary. Today it is considered by most to be the southernly line drawn by the county boundaries of Cheshire, Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire and East Yorkshire.
But there has never been a unified entity that was "Northern English". I would generally agree with your use of the current counties to be what many consider the notional boundary between northern and southern England.
However, as this thread shows, it's a bit of a grey area and I don't think there will be a definitive answer as to where the line is. You could go even further back and say it is the line between Anglo-Saxon England and the Danelaw.
For me personally I think there is a distinction between true geographic location and the labels "Northern" / "Southern".
As the Scottish people have said, they consider everyone in England to be southern (small "s") and yes that's true but I think when people think / say "Northern" with a capital "N" then they are referring to an image / idea that isn't necessarily bound by geography as such. Hence why some people in the "South" consider Birmingham and the rest of the Midlands to be "Northern", be it due to language, class, history or perceived social distance.
I think I know what I mean, whether I've expressed it well in text is another matter.
But there has never been a unified entity that was "Northern English". I would generally agree with your use of the current counties to be what many consider the notional boundary between northern and southern England.
However, as this thread shows, it's a bit of a grey area and I don't think there will be a definitive answer as to where the line is. You could go even further back and say it is the line between Anglo-Saxon England and the Danelaw.
For me personally I think there is a distinction between true geographic location and the labels "Northern" / "Southern".
As the Scottish people have said, they consider everyone in England to be southern (small "s") and yes that's true but I think when people think / say "Northern" with a capital "N" then they are referring to an image / idea that isn't necessarily bound by geography as such. Hence why some people in the "South" consider Birmingham and the rest of the Midlands to be "Northern", be it due to language, class, history or perceived social distance.
I think I know what I mean, whether I've expressed it well in text is another matter.
Yes I agree, that is a good boundary, until you remember that the Angles were all up the eastern side of Scotland - hence the prevalence of the name "Ingles" around the Edinburgh area......
As far as I'm concerned, Leeds is the end of the Midlands, and the start of the North. You've got about 180 miles from there before you hit the Scottish border just past Berwick.
As far as I'm concerned, Leeds is the end of the Midlands, and the start of the North. You've got about 180 miles from there before you hit the Scottish border just past Berwick.
Going by that then, Manchester and Liverpool are in the Midlands
Comments
Precisely. There's probably other words as well.
I knew I'd miss one!
Ah, before my time so I am not really familiar with this teaching style, though it always struck me as odd.
How would these rules deal with the "scone" v "gone" issue? Would they just say that "gone" is an exception to the rule?
Thanks, as do several places in the US, they actually have a dialect closer to 15thC and less corrupted, words like "dove" (in) and "gotten" are OE.
My degree is in Old and Middle English language and medieval history.
The Irish would, they also say they are descended from the fairy folk in The Tain. I agree re the other influences on the northern and scots dialect, particularly Norse.
To be fair, not many. "scone" rhyming with "stone" would seem to be the most logical but if the words derives from the gaelic word "sgonn" then actually it should rhyme with "gone".
But, if one doesn't attribute the invention of the nommy treat to the Scottish and assume the word "scone" derives from the Dutch "schoonbrood" then a longer vowel would be expected and so it should rhyme with "stone".
So we're all right. although those of us who say it to rhyme with "stone" are of course more righter than you lot!
It's fascinating isn't it. Earlier this year the British Library did an exhibition on English from birth to modern times and the future. I asked my boyfriend to take me there for my Birthday treat! very sad I know!
I will forgive your blasphemy about anything American English being pure... we all know they corrupt the language and should be forced to speak the Queen's English etc etc
historically it was the River Trent that defined the Northern English boundary. Today it is considered by most to be the southernly line drawn by the county boundaries of Cheshire, Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire and East Yorkshire.
Ohhh get you! Blasphemy! lol!
"Gotten" is an OE word, it is actually one of my favourites! I agree totally about lazy American corruption of the language though - 24/7 makes me feel slightly ill. But recently I have become fascinated by "our" words that went over there centuries ago (and to over places like Aus, later), then fell out of use over here only to return from aboard to our derision and condemnation as a corruption of the language when what has happened is basically the language split and developed there from that point, retaining some OE and ME words we stopped using. I love some of the words that have cropped up here as new when they existed in ME.
And what about the new ones here, "fudging the issue" - i could scream!
Yes, I love language and agree with you totally, fascinating!
But there has never been a unified entity that was "Northern English". I would generally agree with your use of the current counties to be what many consider the notional boundary between northern and southern England.
However, as this thread shows, it's a bit of a grey area and I don't think there will be a definitive answer as to where the line is. You could go even further back and say it is the line between Anglo-Saxon England and the Danelaw.
For me personally I think there is a distinction between true geographic location and the labels "Northern" / "Southern".
As the Scottish people have said, they consider everyone in England to be southern (small "s") and yes that's true but I think when people think / say "Northern" with a capital "N" then they are referring to an image / idea that isn't necessarily bound by geography as such. Hence why some people in the "South" consider Birmingham and the rest of the Midlands to be "Northern", be it due to language, class, history or perceived social distance.
I think I know what I mean, whether I've expressed it well in text is another matter.
Yes I agree, that is a good boundary, until you remember that the Angles were all up the eastern side of Scotland - hence the prevalence of the name "Ingles" around the Edinburgh area......
Sheffield is not a Midlands city!
You're missing the point
Besides which, wikipedia, that's your evidence. Really.
Birmingham is well known for being in the Midlands. Try typing "The Midlands" into Google maps and see what it shows you.
Apparently this is Yorkshire slang for teacake where I'm from.
Going by that then, Manchester and Liverpool are in the Midlands
For me, the 'North' is anything above London
Which are both known to be in the North.
That's because of the northern denialists propaganda
I would say birmingham is more down south although it takes ages to get to london and the west country.