Those school governors who are objecting are welcome to move to a non Christian country that hold assemblies that cater for their religion.
Britain has been a Christian country for over 2000 years. As Christians we welcome all to our land, but we expect them to respect our way of life. If they don't like the British way of life, why do they stay? When I vsit a country with another religion, I respect their culture.
Britain has been a Christian country for over 2000 years. As Christians we welcome all to our land, but we expect them to respect our way of life. If they don't like the British way of life, why do they stay? When I vsit a country with another religion, I respect their culture.
You mean a step back for those that want the UK to be a secularist nation. Currently are we a secularist nation? The head of state is also the Supreme Governor of the Church of England the official state religion, and at the start of sittings of both houses of parliament there are prayers led by the Speaker's Chaplain.
We are, in the main, a secularist nation. It's taken us many hundreds of years to loosen the shackles of religion, and to separate church and state. Unfortunately the church does indeed still have massive influence and more needs to be done to continue the process.
That's also one of the major differences between us and most of the World's Islamic nations. In those countries the state is still massively intertwined with the state, and the religion is used to subjugate and control the population often with extreme violence, just as happened here for many hundreds of years.
Christmas is the festival of the nativity of Christ.
According to the Oxford English Dictionary. OED.com.
If Athiests are celebrating the nativity of Christ then they are celebrating Christmas. If they are not then they are not celebrating Christmas.
For most people, especially non Christians, Christmas is a Christian festival in name only. For most people it is a time to be with family and friends, exchange gifts, get drunk and spend money and not giving the Christian message a second thought.
And Christians hijacked a pagan festival anyway, a celebration at that time of year pre-dates Christianity.
I am a firm believer in secular schools - and I do wonder at the value of a morning assembly in any case... why not a weekly one, with the purpose of giving our news or celebrating successes. Teaching children to treat themselves and others with respect doesn't require any religion at all. If parents wish to raise their children in a particular faith then they can do so outside of school... it simply should not be part of state funded education except as an academic subject or part of cultural celebrations (I don't have an issue with Christmas plays or Diwali festivals etc, especially for younger children... but even these need to be about the 'tradition' rather than 'selling the faith').
I am a firm believer in secular schools - and I do wonder at the value of a morning assembly in any case... why not a weekly one, with the purpose of giving our news or celebrating successes. Teaching children to treat themselves and others with respect doesn't require any religion at all. If parents wish to raise their children in a particular faith then they can do so outside of school... it simply should not be part of state funded education except as an academic subject or part of cultural celebrations (I don't have an issue with Christmas plays or Diwali festivals etc, especially for younger children... but even these need to be about the 'tradition' rather than 'selling the faith').
Agreed.
I have no issues at all with Christian, Jewish or Muslim after school clubs, Sunday Schools or their equivalents in other faiths, children attending Churches, Temples or Mosques to learn about their religion and for the family home to be run along religious lines.
But I don't think schools run along religious lines should be allowed in a modern, secular country. RE should still be taught, but as a secular subject where the various religions are looked at, and their contributions to our history and culture are taught. There should be a lot of emphasis on their similarities, while also looking at their differences. There should be no, as you say, "selling of the religion".
I honestly do believe that would go along way to helping us to be a more tolerant society, and would perhaps also help in some small way deal with extremism on all sides.
A part from the government, the tax system, public holidays and festivals, most marriages, christening and funeral ceremonies including state ones, the default position as far as swearing various oaths and in some circumstances prayers, and even children's education. The UK has Christian trappings all other the place.
It's taken us many hundreds of years to loosen the shackles of religion, and to separate church and state. Unfortunately the church does indeed still have massive influence and more needs to be done to continue the process.
Christian religion is in large part to thank for our current state of affairs, from founding the Universities and providing education to the poor to having the belief the world was designed by God for us to be able to understand, to the basis of our moral and legal code being action based, deontological, and even the principle all men were created equal and life is sacrosanct. The developed free socially progressive western nations mostly have Christian history in common. It has not held us back it has enabled us.
If you look at the nations that until recently were held back as far as personal liberty and technological progress then you are looking at the former communist states, which were atheist. If you look at the huge systematic atrocities committed in the world on this content and others then again you are looking at ideologies that would remove religion from society.
That's also one of the major differences between us and most of the World's Islamic nations. In those countries the state is still massively intertwined with the state, and the religion is used to subjugate and control the population often with extreme violence, just as happened here for many hundreds of years.
Islam is not generally being used to subjugate the masses. Most of the middle east is run by government scared to death of popular movements like the Muslim Brotherhood. And many of the oppressive laws like Saudi Arabia banning women drivers are not based on religion, but culture. Yes there are Islamic extremists who denouce the education of women, and Christian extremists who oppose the teaching of evolution, but they are not the norm of their religions.
A part from the government, the tax system, public holidays and festivals, most marriages, christening and funeral ceremonies including state ones, the default position as far as swearing various oaths and in some circumstances prayers, and even children's education. The UK has Christian trappings all other the place.
I'm not denying that, but you cannot argue the church has the power and control it once had.
Christian religion is in large part to thank for our current state of affairs, from founding the Universities and providing education to the poor to having the belief the world was designed by God for us to be able to understand, to the basis of our moral and legal code being action based, deontological, and even the principle all men were created equal and life is sacrosanct. The developed free socially progressive western nations mostly have Christian history in common. It has not held us back it has enabled us.
It's power has been massively loosened, and it has massively benefited us as a Nation and allowed us to progress. And by church I am, for the most part, talking about what is now the Catholic church. When the power of the Roman church was removed it allowed other, more progressive forms of Christianity to flourish and that in turn forced the now Catholic church to start to modernise somewhat. We were held back for hundreds of years, with scientific progress often dismissed as heresy and such people subjected to often horrific punishments. But thankfully scientific progress became unstoppable, helped massively by the flourishing of those forms of Christianity that were more progressive, and the more we embrace science and technology and want to better ourselves the more religion becomes an irrelevance generally. A good thing in my opinion. In the West religion has become more about one's personal beliefs and much less about the church/state dictating to people. Of course no one would argue the state and those in power don't still try and dictate, but today there is far less religious influence on such things generally. However, lately we have seen a bit of a resurgence of religion, especially it's more extreme aspects. Maybe the various religions are gaining power and influence again, or maybe it is just the final death throes of often outdated ideology.
If you look at the nations that until recently were held back as far as personal liberty and technological progress then you are looking at the former communist states, which were atheist. If you look at the huge systematic atrocities committed in the world on this content and others then again you are looking at ideologies that would remove religion from society.
Religion on this continent hasn't committed atrocities?.
Islam is not generally being used to subjugate the masses. Most of the middle east is run by government scared to death of popular movements like the Muslim Brotherhood. And many of the oppressive laws like Saudi Arabia banning women drivers are not based on religion, but culture. Yes there are Islamic extremists who denouce the education of women, and Christian extremists who oppose the teaching of evolution, but they are not the norm of their religions.
I disagree, often in such hardline states religion IS used to subjugate the masses. The excuse often used for the subjugation of women for example, is the religious aspects and the interpretation of the religion by those desperate to retain power and control. The reality may be more cultural, but the religion IS used to justify such things and the rulings often come from religious leaders desperate to hold onto their power and influence.
Of course not all of those from any particular religion follow the more extremist doctrines, but you cannot seriously say the likes of Isis are not using the more extreme aspects of their religion for power, control and subjugation of the masses surely?. That's exactly what they are doing, using their interpretation of their religious texts to justify their beliefs and their actions.
And who is arguing atheists cannot be just as bad?. Certainly not me.
A part from the government, the tax system, public holidays and festivals, most marriages, christening and funeral ceremonies including state ones, the default position as far as swearing various oaths and in some circumstances prayers, and even children's education. The UK has Christian trappings all other the place.
Christian religion is in large part to thank for our current state of affairs, from founding the Universities and providing education to the poor to having the belief the world was designed by God for us to be able to understand, to the basis of our moral and legal code being action based, deontological, and even the principle all men were created equal and life is sacrosanct. The developed free socially progressive western nations mostly have Christian history in common. It has not held us back it has enabled us.
If you look at the nations that until recently were held back as far as personal liberty and technological progress then you are looking at the former communist states, which were atheist. If you look at the huge systematic atrocities committed in the world on this content and others then again you are looking at ideologies that would remove religion from society.
Islam is not generally being used to subjugate the masses. Most of the middle east is run by government scared to death of popular movements like the Muslim Brotherhood. And many of the oppressive laws like Saudi Arabia banning women drivers are not based on religion, but culture. Yes there are Islamic extremists who denouce the education of women, and Christian extremists who oppose the teaching of evolution, but they are not the norm of their religions.
Interesting that you ascribe all the progressive and civilising influences on 'Christian' countries to religion whereas you almost totally discount its influence in repressive States with a Muslim tradition. How do you explain how one religion has had so much influence while the other has almost none?
Are you sure you are not taking a rather rose tinted view?
You think everyone in every family shares the same morals?.
One arm of my family is devoutly Christian, their morals include not speaking to my brother because he happens to be gay. They also don't speak to one of my cousins, nor to another relative, the son of another cousin, because she also happen to be gay.
The rest of the family happily accept them.
Same extended family, different morals.
You're family isn't very devoted to Christianity because homosexuality is actually barely mentioned in the bible and heterosexuals are condemned over 100 times. The idea that the bible is anti homosexual was started by people who were anti religious. You also have to take in to account the bible was published 500 years ago and until that time the stories were told from person to person and so the stories would have been changed over time like in the game Chinese Whispers.
Christmas is a Christian festival. What non Christians do is up to them.
Christmas although said to be based on the birth of Jesus the traditions come from Germany. Although it's disputed the birth of Christ is said really to have happened in around October but defiantly not in December. It's said to be celebrated in December because the UK was Pagan and there was a pagan celebration on the last week of December so when Christianity came to the UK they would still be able to celebrate and it happened over the rest of the British empire.
Are you referring to children being compelled to attend collective acts of worship?
Let people do what they want. Why do you need to ban people going to prayers? This is when Atheists should just think a bit more and stop being so authoritarian.
Let people do what they want. Why do you need to ban people going to prayers? This is when Atheists should just think a bit more and stop being so authoritarian.
religious people are free to get there kids take part in worship just as atheists are free to stop by kids from taking part.
You're family isn't very devoted to Christianity because homosexuality is actually barely mentioned in the bible and heterosexuals are condemned over 100 times. The idea that the bible is anti homosexual was started by people who were anti religious. You also have to take in to account the bible was published 500 years ago and until that time the stories were told from person to person and so the stories would have been changed over time like in the game Chinese Whispers.
Christmas although said to be based on the birth of Jesus the traditions come from Germany. Although it's disputed the birth of Christ is said really to have happened in around October but defiantly not in December. It's said to be celebrated in December because the UK was Pagan and there was a pagan celebration on the last week of December so when Christianity came to the UK they would still be able to celebrate and it happened over the rest of the British empire.
The larger family isn't devoted to Christianity at all, most of us are non believers. Those that are are, for the most part, fine. It's a couple of the more extreme ones who are out and out homophobes. And not every facet of Christianity holds the same beliefs, why do you think there are so many Christian churches?. Christianity isn't one homogeneous group all sharing the exact same interpretations of their holy book you know.
Besides, I was answering your specific point. You wanted examples of different sets of morals.
Christmas although said to be based on the birth of Jesus the traditions come from Germany. Although it's disputed the birth of Christ is said really to have happened in around October but defiantly not in December. It's said to be celebrated in December because the UK was Pagan and there was a pagan celebration on the last week of December so when Christianity came to the UK they would still be able to celebrate and it happened over the rest of the British empire.
Let people do what they want. Why do you need to ban people going to prayers?
Why do you need to compel them to go? Why can they not be allowed to make their own decision on whether they want to follow religion? Let people do what they want.
The larger family isn't devoted to Christianity at all, most of us are non believers. Those that are are, for the most part, fine. It's a couple of the more extreme ones who are out and out homophobes. And not every facet of Christianity holds the same beliefs, why do you think there are so many Christian churches?. Christianity isn't one homogeneous group all sharing the exact same interpretations of their holy book you know.
Besides, I was answering your specific point. You wanted examples of different sets of morals.
With Baptists and Evangelicals they are against homosexuality and people who come up with claims that Christianity in homophobic usually base it on American Baptist Christianity. Some people don't know that there are different parts of Christianity and that Catholicism, C of E and Baptists aren't the same thing.
I wouldn't say that homosexuality is a moral or religious issue, if you look back to about 60 years ago homosexuality was at the stage of acceptance that paedophilia is at now and interracial relationships were where homosexuality today. I am in my late 20s and most people in my generation aren't bothered by homosexuals but people of my grandparents generation are still against homosexuality as it wasn't accepted in their generation. When we're in our 80s/90s I am sure we would still be against paedophilia and people would be saying we're paedophobic.
With Baptists and Evangelicals they are against homosexuality and people who come up with claims that Christianity in homophobic usually base it on American Baptist Christianity. Some people don't know that there are different parts of Christianity and that Catholicism, C of E and Baptists aren't the same thing.
I wouldn't say that homosexuality is a moral or religious issue, if you look back to about 60 years ago homosexuality was at the stage of acceptance that paedophilia is at now and interracial relationships were where homosexuality today. I am in my late 20s and most people in my generation aren't bothered by homosexuals but people of my grandparents generation are still against homosexuality as it wasn't accepted in their generation. When we're in our 80s/90s I am sure we would still be against paedophilia and people would be saying we're paedophobic.
Given we both agree Christianity is made up of many different sects, with differing beliefs, I don't get what your argument is.
And I don't think Paedophobic means what you think it means.
Besides, I completely disagree with your second paragraph. Our age of consent has been 16 for almost 100 years, and I don't see it being lowered anytime soon. In fact if anything, I would think the age of consent is more likely to rise rather than be lowered.
With Baptists and Evangelicals they are against homosexuality and people who come up with claims that Christianity in homophobic usually base it on American Baptist Christianity. Some people don't know that there are different parts of Christianity and that Catholicism, C of E and Baptists aren't the same thing.
I wouldn't say that homosexuality is a moral or religious issue, if you look back to about 60 years ago homosexuality was at the stage of acceptance that paedophilia is at now and interracial relationships were where homosexuality today. I am in my late 20s and most people in my generation aren't bothered by homosexuals but people of my grandparents generation are still against homosexuality as it wasn't accepted in their generation. When we're in our 80s/90s I am sure we would still be against paedophilia and people would be saying we're paedophobic.
No they would not.
Peodophilia will never be acceptable (unless you are Mohammed, or a Catholic priest).
Peodophilia will never be acceptable (unless you are Mohammed, or a Catholic priest).
Or maybe even a celebrity Keyser, the list is not endless! The key, in some respects, is to give children enough information to protect themselves or at least not to be frightened to tell somebody that they are not comfortable with something.
Comments
We can change the name to Winterfest if you like, but what would be the point?
Do you feel compelled to change the name of Easter?
You sure about that?
They are. Just not in the same way as Christians.
According to the Oxford English Dictionary. OED.com.
If Athiests are celebrating the nativity of Christ then they are celebrating Christmas. If they are not then they are not celebrating Christmas.
We are, in the main, a secularist nation. It's taken us many hundreds of years to loosen the shackles of religion, and to separate church and state. Unfortunately the church does indeed still have massive influence and more needs to be done to continue the process.
That's also one of the major differences between us and most of the World's Islamic nations. In those countries the state is still massively intertwined with the state, and the religion is used to subjugate and control the population often with extreme violence, just as happened here for many hundreds of years.
For most people, especially non Christians, Christmas is a Christian festival in name only. For most people it is a time to be with family and friends, exchange gifts, get drunk and spend money and not giving the Christian message a second thought.
And Christians hijacked a pagan festival anyway, a celebration at that time of year pre-dates Christianity.
Pedantry aside, Christmas is now as much, if not more so, a cultural festival as it is religious.
Agreed.
I have no issues at all with Christian, Jewish or Muslim after school clubs, Sunday Schools or their equivalents in other faiths, children attending Churches, Temples or Mosques to learn about their religion and for the family home to be run along religious lines.
But I don't think schools run along religious lines should be allowed in a modern, secular country. RE should still be taught, but as a secular subject where the various religions are looked at, and their contributions to our history and culture are taught. There should be a lot of emphasis on their similarities, while also looking at their differences. There should be no, as you say, "selling of the religion".
I honestly do believe that would go along way to helping us to be a more tolerant society, and would perhaps also help in some small way deal with extremism on all sides.
Christian religion is in large part to thank for our current state of affairs, from founding the Universities and providing education to the poor to having the belief the world was designed by God for us to be able to understand, to the basis of our moral and legal code being action based, deontological, and even the principle all men were created equal and life is sacrosanct. The developed free socially progressive western nations mostly have Christian history in common. It has not held us back it has enabled us.
If you look at the nations that until recently were held back as far as personal liberty and technological progress then you are looking at the former communist states, which were atheist. If you look at the huge systematic atrocities committed in the world on this content and others then again you are looking at ideologies that would remove religion from society.
Islam is not generally being used to subjugate the masses. Most of the middle east is run by government scared to death of popular movements like the Muslim Brotherhood. And many of the oppressive laws like Saudi Arabia banning women drivers are not based on religion, but culture. Yes there are Islamic extremists who denouce the education of women, and Christian extremists who oppose the teaching of evolution, but they are not the norm of their religions.
It's power has been massively loosened, and it has massively benefited us as a Nation and allowed us to progress. And by church I am, for the most part, talking about what is now the Catholic church. When the power of the Roman church was removed it allowed other, more progressive forms of Christianity to flourish and that in turn forced the now Catholic church to start to modernise somewhat. We were held back for hundreds of years, with scientific progress often dismissed as heresy and such people subjected to often horrific punishments. But thankfully scientific progress became unstoppable, helped massively by the flourishing of those forms of Christianity that were more progressive, and the more we embrace science and technology and want to better ourselves the more religion becomes an irrelevance generally. A good thing in my opinion. In the West religion has become more about one's personal beliefs and much less about the church/state dictating to people. Of course no one would argue the state and those in power don't still try and dictate, but today there is far less religious influence on such things generally. However, lately we have seen a bit of a resurgence of religion, especially it's more extreme aspects. Maybe the various religions are gaining power and influence again, or maybe it is just the final death throes of often outdated ideology.
Religion on this continent hasn't committed atrocities?.
I disagree, often in such hardline states religion IS used to subjugate the masses. The excuse often used for the subjugation of women for example, is the religious aspects and the interpretation of the religion by those desperate to retain power and control. The reality may be more cultural, but the religion IS used to justify such things and the rulings often come from religious leaders desperate to hold onto their power and influence.
Of course not all of those from any particular religion follow the more extremist doctrines, but you cannot seriously say the likes of Isis are not using the more extreme aspects of their religion for power, control and subjugation of the masses surely?. That's exactly what they are doing, using their interpretation of their religious texts to justify their beliefs and their actions.
And who is arguing atheists cannot be just as bad?. Certainly not me.
Interesting that you ascribe all the progressive and civilising influences on 'Christian' countries to religion whereas you almost totally discount its influence in repressive States with a Muslim tradition. How do you explain how one religion has had so much influence while the other has almost none?
Are you sure you are not taking a rather rose tinted view?
You're family isn't very devoted to Christianity because homosexuality is actually barely mentioned in the bible and heterosexuals are condemned over 100 times. The idea that the bible is anti homosexual was started by people who were anti religious. You also have to take in to account the bible was published 500 years ago and until that time the stories were told from person to person and so the stories would have been changed over time like in the game Chinese Whispers.
Christmas although said to be based on the birth of Jesus the traditions come from Germany. Although it's disputed the birth of Christ is said really to have happened in around October but defiantly not in December. It's said to be celebrated in December because the UK was Pagan and there was a pagan celebration on the last week of December so when Christianity came to the UK they would still be able to celebrate and it happened over the rest of the British empire.
The larger family isn't devoted to Christianity at all, most of us are non believers. Those that are are, for the most part, fine. It's a couple of the more extreme ones who are out and out homophobes. And not every facet of Christianity holds the same beliefs, why do you think there are so many Christian churches?. Christianity isn't one homogeneous group all sharing the exact same interpretations of their holy book you know.
Besides, I was answering your specific point. You wanted examples of different sets of morals.
Correct.
Why do you need to compel them to go? Why can they not be allowed to make their own decision on whether they want to follow religion? Let people do what they want.
With Baptists and Evangelicals they are against homosexuality and people who come up with claims that Christianity in homophobic usually base it on American Baptist Christianity. Some people don't know that there are different parts of Christianity and that Catholicism, C of E and Baptists aren't the same thing.
I wouldn't say that homosexuality is a moral or religious issue, if you look back to about 60 years ago homosexuality was at the stage of acceptance that paedophilia is at now and interracial relationships were where homosexuality today. I am in my late 20s and most people in my generation aren't bothered by homosexuals but people of my grandparents generation are still against homosexuality as it wasn't accepted in their generation. When we're in our 80s/90s I am sure we would still be against paedophilia and people would be saying we're paedophobic.
Given we both agree Christianity is made up of many different sects, with differing beliefs, I don't get what your argument is.
And I don't think Paedophobic means what you think it means.
Besides, I completely disagree with your second paragraph. Our age of consent has been 16 for almost 100 years, and I don't see it being lowered anytime soon. In fact if anything, I would think the age of consent is more likely to rise rather than be lowered.
No they would not.
Peodophilia will never be acceptable (unless you are Mohammed, or a Catholic priest).
Or maybe even a celebrity Keyser, the list is not endless! The key, in some respects, is to give children enough information to protect themselves or at least not to be frightened to tell somebody that they are not comfortable with something.