You are wrong. The scouse accent has evolved over the last 50 years but it was common for people of Cilla's generation to pronounce words like hair and fair, as 'hur' and 'fur' (for example George Harrison did too). She has an old style scouse accent that you only ever hear now from people of a certain age. (Funnily enough it's turned full circle and fur would now be pronounced 'fair' )
I have to totally disagree on your example of the 'fur' / 'hur' thing. I'm from Liverpool as are my elder sisters and brother and not one of us (or anyone I know from Liverpool) pronounced or pronounces the words fair and hair like that. If anything - as Cilla's pronunciation tended to 'close' those words - we would go the other way and open those words up. We are from central Liverpool as well (L3 - London Road/Seymour Street/Bullring). Thank goodness we don't speak like that anymore - after living all over from Leeds down to Henley on Thames I think I've got rid of most traces of my accent.
I married someone from Wigan though - and I have heard Wiganers pronounce fur and hair almost the same way Cilla did/does. Maybe she has some Wigan in her!
I have to totally disagree on your example of the 'fur' / 'hur' thing. I'm from Liverpool as are my elder sisters and brother and not one of us (or anyone I know from Liverpool) pronounced or pronounces the words fair and hair like that.
Yep I'm from a later generation and I never pronounced hair as 'hur' either but know plenty of older people who still do. Check out the first 2 minutes of this interview with Ken Dodd and the Beatles ('the judy with the fur hur') ...
Yep I'm from a later generation and I never pronounced hair as 'hur' either but know plenty of older people who still do. Check out the first 2 minutes of this interview with Ken Dodd and the Beatles ('the judy with the fur hur') ...
A lot of people of that era also pronounced there as 'thur', Mersey as 'Mursey' ... which wouldn't be the case now.
I still disagree. Maybe 'celebrity' scousers of a certain age use this 'fur hur' thing - but no ordinary, Liverpool person on the street (I've ever met) ever pronounced those words like that. I would pronounce fair as you would pronounce 'flare' and hair as you would pronounce 'hare'. If anything - I used to get laughed at for pronouncing words like that - which is why I did my best to get rid of my accent (I still have traces of it unfortunately - but maybe in another 20 years I'll be rid of it totally.
And never, ever have I heard anyone pronounce the Mersey as 'Mursey'.
I still disagree. Maybe 'celebrity' scousers of a certain age use this 'fur hur' thing - but no ordinary, Liverpool person on the street (I've ever met) ever pronounced those words like that. I would pronounce fair as you would pronounce 'flare' and hair as you would pronounce 'hare'. If anything - I used to get laughed at for pronouncing words like that - which is why I did my best to get rid of my accent (I still have traces of it unfortunately - but maybe in another 20 years I'll be rid of it totally.
And never, ever have I heard anyone pronounce the Mersey as 'Mursey'.
Just because you've never heard it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Dr Andrew Hamer an english dialect expert from Lpool Uni is on record numerous times talking about the evolution of the accent (he reckons the less gutteral nasal sound may be the result of cleaner air ). Listen to the Beatles from about 2.30 onwards in this clip and how they pronounce words such as there, where, hair, german, person etc - they use a more adenoidal 'uh' sound, particularly George.... it's very different to how modern day scousers would pronounce those words. The difference may be indetectable to some but it's definitely there/thure.
Just because you've never heard it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Dr Andrew Hamer an english dialect expert from Lpool Uni is on record numerous times talking about the evolution of the accent (he reckons the less gutteral nasal sound may be the result of cleaner air ). Listen to the Beatles from about 2.30 onwards in this clip and how they pronounce words such as there, where, hair, german, person etc - they use a more adenoidal 'uh' sound, particularly George.... it's very different to how modern day scousers would pronounce those words. The difference may be indetectable to some but it's definitely there/thure.
Well all I can say is that I'm glad it has never been my experience to listen to any scouser pronounce those words in the way Cilla and co seem to. The scouse accent is bad enough as it is - Beryl Bainbridge was right about that one! Its bad enough pronouncing Fair Hair as 'fir hir' as I used to ... a long, long, very long time ago!
Well all I can say is that I'm glad it has never been my experience to listen to any scouser pronounce those words in the way Cilla and co seem to. The scouse accent is bad enough as it is - Beryl Bainbridge was right about that one! Its bad enough pronouncing Fair Hair as 'fir hir' as I used to ... a long, long, very long time ago!
Well it's all about opinions, I like some scouse accents, dislike others. I love George's voice/accent.
As a non-celeb example here's Neil from 7-Up in 1963, listen how he talks, in particular how he pronounces 'everywhere' about 20 seconds in. It's the exact same way as the likes of the Beatles, Cilla and Ken Dodd would and very typical of that era...
I enjoyed the first episode, despite not being keen on Cilla, I do like Sheridan Smith, and I really thought her portrayal of Cilla was excellent, and she had a better singing voice IMO
No stage presence, no emotion and always just standing and belting out a song? Sorry, but that's really not true, no matter what you think of Cilla's voice or the person herself. All these are live performances.
I agree Ella Nut. She really was very, very good in her heyday. I still love her early stuff to date.
I can't stand her though, and I am not remotely interested in watching a, I suspect, very watered down programme in favour of 'Our Cilla' . A treasure? Really?
You are wrong. The scouse accent has evolved over the last 50 years but it was common for people of Cilla's generation to pronounce words like hair and fair, as 'hur' and 'fur' (for example George Harrison did too). She has an old style scouse accent that you only ever hear now from people of a certain age. (Funnily enough it's turned full circle and fur would now be pronounced 'fair' )
Btw it's not unusual for people to look back fondly/nostalgically to their youth and their roots, particularly the working classes. It doesn't mean they'd like to go back. I dare say Cilla's Dad used to sit in their flat in Liverpool talking fondly of the Ireland he 'escaped' for a better life, while her Mum spoke similarly of her Welsh background. Anyway, the Liverpool Cilla grew up in disappeared decades ago, the city is barely recognisable from her day, in particular the area where she grew up which was decimated by the slum clearances, with the community dispersed here, there and everywhere.
Excellent post and so right about the accent
Much eroded in the city with national tv and radio phrasing as with all local dialects
That's why my favourite track of hers is love of the loved
The line So let it rain what do I CUR
Deep in your heart I'll still be THURR. Is classic scouse and makes me smile every time I hear it !😄
Well it's all about opinions, I like some scouse accents, dislike others. I love George's voice/accent.
As a non-celeb example here's Neil from 7-Up in 1963, listen how he talks, in particular how he pronounces 'everywhere' about 20 seconds in. It's the exact same way as the likes of the Beatles, Cilla and Ken Dodd would and very typical of that era...
Cilla had zero stage presence as I recall. She'd just stand there and belt out the song. No comparison to say, Dusty Springfield, who showed raw emotion when she sang.
I saw her live a few times in the 70's and she was very good, I have also met her twice and she was lovely even remembering that she talked to my dad during her show in the late 70's when I showed her a photo we had taken.
Also George Martin speaks so highly about Cilla, George Martin is a lovely man and he loves her to this day also says what an amazing voice she had.
I saw her live a few times in the 70's and she was very good, I have also met her twice and she was lovely even remembering that she talked to my dad during her show in the late 70's when I showed her a photo we had taken.
Also George Martin speaks so highly about Cilla, George Martin is a lovely man and he loves her to this day also says what an amazing voice she had.
I've met her on several occasions at the hotel where I used to work and found her a genuinely nice person never frightend to take the Mickey out of herself and much like Barbara Windsor and her husband Scott who I've also read bad reports over a joy to spend time with
The way people are with them will obviously dictate how they are with you
I've seen it over the years with my own niece who was in amongst other things Shameless
She would always chat to everyone pose for phoros sign autographs etc as she has always said it comes with the territory and is a part of the job and what you make it ...remembering these people coming to chat pay your wages !
If we were out for a meal as a family staff would see people coming towards her and just say let her finish her meal first and then she's all yours
Then on the downside I've seen people go upto celebs who are literally just about to put a fork to their mouths and have an autograph book or piece of paper literally thrown at them with the words Sign This barked at them !!
That's out of order and I would think many of those allegedly offended by Cillas atitude fall into the latter category
on the downside I've seen people go upto celebs who are literally just about to put a fork to their mouths and have an autograph book or piece of paper literally thrown at them with the words Sign This barked at them !!
That's out of order
Totally out of order-unless it's Rolf Harris, & the piece of paper is the sex offenders' register!
True that celebs should be able to go out for a family meal and not get hassled. If I saw a well-known person doing their everyday stuff I wouldn't approach them- unless they appeared very open to it.
Comments
I have to totally disagree on your example of the 'fur' / 'hur' thing. I'm from Liverpool as are my elder sisters and brother and not one of us (or anyone I know from Liverpool) pronounced or pronounces the words fair and hair like that. If anything - as Cilla's pronunciation tended to 'close' those words - we would go the other way and open those words up. We are from central Liverpool as well (L3 - London Road/Seymour Street/Bullring). Thank goodness we don't speak like that anymore - after living all over from Leeds down to Henley on Thames I think I've got rid of most traces of my accent.
I married someone from Wigan though - and I have heard Wiganers pronounce fur and hair almost the same way Cilla did/does. Maybe she has some Wigan in her!
Yep I'm from a later generation and I never pronounced hair as 'hur' either but know plenty of older people who still do. Check out the first 2 minutes of this interview with Ken Dodd and the Beatles ('the judy with the fur hur') ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZciEaUBmtrw
It's also mentioned in this article...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scouse-is-threatened-by-the-rising-tide-of-estuary-english-1097349.html
A lot of people of that era also pronounced there as 'thur', Mersey as 'Mursey' ... which wouldn't be the case now.
I still disagree. Maybe 'celebrity' scousers of a certain age use this 'fur hur' thing - but no ordinary, Liverpool person on the street (I've ever met) ever pronounced those words like that. I would pronounce fair as you would pronounce 'flare' and hair as you would pronounce 'hare'. If anything - I used to get laughed at for pronouncing words like that - which is why I did my best to get rid of my accent (I still have traces of it unfortunately - but maybe in another 20 years I'll be rid of it totally.
And never, ever have I heard anyone pronounce the Mersey as 'Mursey'.
Just because you've never heard it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Dr Andrew Hamer an english dialect expert from Lpool Uni is on record numerous times talking about the evolution of the accent (he reckons the less gutteral nasal sound may be the result of cleaner air
http://youtu.be/dwl3K3TlZqM?t=2m30s
Well all I can say is that I'm glad it has never been my experience to listen to any scouser pronounce those words in the way Cilla and co seem to. The scouse accent is bad enough as it is - Beryl Bainbridge was right about that one! Its bad enough pronouncing Fair Hair as 'fir hir' as I used to ... a long, long, very long time ago!
Well it's all about opinions, I like some scouse accents, dislike others. I love George's voice/accent.
As a non-celeb example here's Neil from 7-Up in 1963, listen how he talks, in particular how he pronounces 'everywhere' about 20 seconds in. It's the exact same way as the likes of the Beatles, Cilla and Ken Dodd would and very typical of that era...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBS3_G7NhHg
I agree Ella Nut. She really was very, very good in her heyday. I still love her early stuff to date.
I can't stand her though, and I am not remotely interested in watching a, I suspect, very watered down programme in favour of 'Our Cilla' . A treasure? Really?
Excellent post and so right about the accent
Much eroded in the city with national tv and radio phrasing as with all local dialects
That's why my favourite track of hers is love of the loved
The line So let it rain what do I CUR
Deep in your heart I'll still be THURR. Is classic scouse and makes me smile every time I hear it !😄
I love George's voice/accent too.
I disagree, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1S39n6ueAw&list=PL83CE0F0E528C91E1
I saw her live a few times in the 70's and she was very good, I have also met her twice and she was lovely even remembering that she talked to my dad during her show in the late 70's when I showed her a photo we had taken.
Also George Martin speaks so highly about Cilla, George Martin is a lovely man and he loves her to this day also says what an amazing voice she had.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDF_taQnoXk
I've met her on several occasions at the hotel where I used to work and found her a genuinely nice person never frightend to take the Mickey out of herself and much like Barbara Windsor and her husband Scott who I've also read bad reports over a joy to spend time with
The way people are with them will obviously dictate how they are with you
I've seen it over the years with my own niece who was in amongst other things Shameless
She would always chat to everyone pose for phoros sign autographs etc as she has always said it comes with the territory and is a part of the job and what you make it ...remembering these people coming to chat pay your wages !
If we were out for a meal as a family staff would see people coming towards her and just say let her finish her meal first and then she's all yours
Then on the downside I've seen people go upto celebs who are literally just about to put a fork to their mouths and have an autograph book or piece of paper literally thrown at them with the words Sign This barked at them !!
That's out of order and I would think many of those allegedly offended by Cillas atitude fall into the latter category
Totally out of order-unless it's Rolf Harris, & the piece of paper is the sex offenders' register!
Sorry, don't belong to me
It's good to know George's voice is getting alorrrrrrrrrra lorrrrrrra luv!
I love George's accent too!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tG0zCTVMM8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiPl351mD9M ^_^
Sheridan did a decent job of capturing her romanticised persona, mind.