No it's asking why it's ok for the newspapers to be anti-traveller when if they were to speak in the same way about other ethnic groups and stereotype in the way they do then it would be seen as unacceptable.
That's true. And you could easily substitute 'Benefit claimer" in there too, and it would be an acceptable target again. Our press can be nasty and nasty sells.
I believe all the stories he's quoted from this country refer to Irish travellers. There are no Roma people at Dale farm.
But the OP and discussion is not about Dale Farm or just Irish Travellers and is about Travellers. The discussion is about treatment of travelling people.
They're not being "targeted" for being travellers but because they're breaking the law. The only people who seem to make this about them being travellers are the travellers themselves, who believe being travellers gives them the right to ignore the law. They can not decide as a contingent to willingly flout the law and be free of the consequences, just by hiding behind the ruse that acting against them is somehow racist.
You could replace the word with if any group you'd like and it would still work, because they would all be receiving the same treatment. If a camp of Jews did this, only the daft would be claiming it's anti-Semitic. If a camp of English people did it, you can bet the same action would take place there. The only reason their treatment looks different is they're the only group to believe they have the right to set up an illegal camp and avoid legal consequences.
Action is taken against illegal development all the time, it's just most of the law breakers aren't this brazen. It doesn't mean we're treating the travellers any differently to anybody else.
They're not being "targeted" for being travellers but because they're breaking the law. The only people who seem to make this about them being travellers are the travellers themselves, who believe being travellers gives them the right to ignore the law. They can not decide as a contingent to willingly flout the law and be free of the consequences, just by hiding behind the ruse that acting against them is somehow racist.
You could replace the word with if any group you'd like and it would still work, because they would all be receiving the same treatment. If a camp of Jews did this, only the daft would be claiming it's anti-Semitic. If a camp of English people did it, you can bet the same action would take place there. The only reason their treatment looks different is they're the only group to believe they have the right to set up an illegal camp and avoid legal consequences.
Action is taken against illegal development all the time, it's just most of the law breakers aren't this brazen. It doesn't mean we're treating the travellers any differently to anybody else.
It's not just about illegal development but about wider anti traveller sentiment. On the issue of illegal development it's different from settled people to travellers. Settled people are settled normally and live in houses. Travellers used to travel the roads but as the authorities have made it more and more difficult for travellers to travel they have tried to find ways to at least remain in traveller communities. The authorities need to take some responsibility for these problems arising. We need to take into consideration ways to enable the traveller lifestyle to continue within the law. The law is designed to make it very difficult to live on the road. Travellers have found ways to keep their communities alive in some from because the law has been trying to get travellers off the road into council houses for years and they obviously don't want to live like that.
But the OP and discussion is not about Dale Farm or just Irish Travellers and is about Travellers. The discussion is about treatment of travelling people.
Then I suggest the OP and you stop fudging and blurring the issue by posting OTT threads like this. The main topic on this board over the last few months has been the breaking of the law by those at Dale farm, and in some aspects the other illegal activities by a very large minority of the same 'Irish traveller' community
If the OP has issues with the way other countries handle their 'traveller' problems then I suggest he posts on Digispy Italia or Digispy France.
To infer that the treatment of those at Dale farm draws similarities to the treatment of the Jews in 30's is both obscene and offensive.
Then I suggest the OP and you stop fudging and blurring the issue by posting OTT threads like this. The main topic on this board over the last few months has been the breaking of the law by those at Dale farm, and in some aspects the other illegal activities by a very large minority of the same 'Irish traveller' community
If the OP has issues with the way other countries handle their 'traveller' problems then I suggest he posts on Digispy Italia or Digispy France.
To infer that the treatment of those at Dale farm draws similarities to the treatment of the Jews in 30's is both obscene and offensive.
It's you who are confused and unable to discuss the issue in a wider context without going OTT. You may have made a decision to find the post obscene and offensive but it's not actually so I suggest we keep on discussing the topic and if you find it offensive then don't get involved. It's no use when your incapable of taking onboard the fact that it's not about Dale Farm specifically but the victimisation in the press of groups viewed by wider society as outsiders.
It's you who are confused and unable to discuss the issue in a wider context without going OTT. You may have made a decision to find the post obscene and offensive but it's not actually so I suggest we keep on discussing the topic and if you find it offensive then don't get involved. It's no use when your incapable of taking onboard the fact that it's not about Dale Farm specifically but the victimisation in the press of groups viewed by wider society as outsiders.
I think you're the one who's confused and unable to grasp the simple facts. All the topics on digispy have related to Dale farm and/or Irish travellers in general, yet you and the OP for some reason see fit to drag the persecution of the Jews into it. THERE ARE NO SIMILARITIES!
They(irish travellers) want to be outsiders, they don't want to marry mix or socialise outside of their own closed community.
On the issue of illegal development it's different from settled people to travellers.
So what should happen? If the extension at Dale Farm is allowed to remain because they're Travellers, then what stops any group of Travellers from buying land and setting up anywhere without permission? And how will that help any kind of community cohesion, when the farmer next door wouldn't be allowed to build an extension to his house because he isn't a Traveller. There should never be one rule for one and one for everyone else.
I believe all the stories he's quoted from this country refer to Irish travellers. There are no Roma people at Dale farm.
Well then you would believe wrongly. Some of the stories referred specifically to Roma in France and Italy, ie Sarkozy to expel Roma, Italy to fingerprint Roma etc.
And Anndra_w is correct, I am demostrating how the media demonises/scapegoats groups according to what is socially acceptable. In the early part of the 20th Century, in England as well as Germany, jewish "aliens" were the focus for the media's opprobrium. Today it is Muslims, travellers, and immigrants. (And indeed, Roma/Travelling communities have been subject to often genocidal discrimination and prejudice for at least as long as the Jewish community were - and for many of the same "reasons".)
Incidentally, I thought this snippet from the Holocaust eduction sites section on Der Sturmer, that I quoted from previously, was also quite interesting considering that a remarkably similiar subject is also raised ad nauseum by the "not at all racist" Islamophobes... (who often seem to be the same people who are posting here about travellers being worthless criminals)
"Whoever had the occasion to be an eye-witness during the slaughtering of animals or to see at least a truthful film on the slaughtering-will never forget this horrible experience. It is atrocious. And unwillingly, he is reminded of the crimes which the Jews have committed for centuries on men. He will be reminded of the ritual murder.
History points out hundreds of cases in which non-Jewish children were tortured to death. They also were given the same incision through the throat as is found on slaughtered animals. They also were slowly bled to death while fully conscious"
The populist tabloid, Der Sturmer was subtitled "Die Juden sind unser Unglück!" ("The Jews are our misfortune").
Again it would be so easy to replace "Juden" with "Muslim" or "asylum seeker", "benefit scrounger" or whatever, and you have the Sun and the Daily Mail editorial line in a nutshell.
To quote the great English philosopher, Thomas "Mensi" Mensforth, "Fascism doesnt begin with concentration camps, that is where it ends".
The Dale Farm residents (they don't travel!) are breaking the law, Jews running legitimate buinesses before Kristallnacht were not, to compare the DF residents situation to what happened to Jews in recent European history is an insult of the lowest order :mad:, and shows just how ignorant the OP is.
Well (off the top of me head) I'd reckon they broke the Planning Laws and Environmental Health Laws GM.
Ah I see.
I wasn't sure whether it was the caravans they didn't have planning permission for or whether it might just be toilets ,shower blocks, and communal utility/laundry buildings.
The Dale Farm residents (they don't travel!) are breaking the law, Jews running legitimate buinesses before Kristallnacht were not, to compare the DF residents situation to what happened to Jews in recent European history is an insult of the lowest order :mad:, and shows just how ignorant the OP is.
You're wasting your time, It's the usual far left/uber liberal tactic of scare mongering. Any chance they get they'll try and draw comparisons with the Nazis/Jews etc. It's very disturbing.
Well then you would believe wrongly. Some of the stories referred specifically to Roma in France and Italy, ie Sarkozy to expel Roma, Italy to fingerprint Roma etc.
And Anndra_w is correct, I am demostrating how the media demonises/scapegoats groups according to what is socially acceptable. In the early part of the 20th Century, in England as well as Germany, jewish "aliens" were the focus for the media's opprobrium. Today it is Muslims, travellers, and immigrants. (And indeed, Roma/Travelling communities have been subject to often genocidal discrimination and prejudice for at least as long as the Jewish community were - and for many of the same "reasons".)
Incidentally, I thought this snippet from the Holocaust eduction sites section on Der Sturmer, that I quoted from previously, was also quite interesting considering that a remarkably similiar subject is also raised ad nauseum by the "not at all racist" Islamophobes... (who often seem to be the same people who are posting here about travellers being worthless criminals)
The populist tabloid, Der Sturmer was subtitled "Die Juden sind unser Unglück!" ("The Jews are our misfortune").
Again it would be so easy to replace "Juden" with "Muslim" or "asylum seeker", "benefit scrounger" or whatever, and you have the Sun and the Daily Mail editorial line in a nutshell.
To quote the great English philosopher, Thomas "Mensi" Mensforth, "Fascism doesnt begin with concentration camps, that is where it ends".
There's no need for newspapers and some people here to revel in it. Some of the comments are disgraceful. But the flip side is that Travellers are also guilty of making it a racial issue by saying they should be exempt from the law and that they can only live with their own kind. It's horribly ironic that they are complaining that they can't form ethnic 'ghettos'. Look at what happened to Jewish and Gypsy people in Warsaw.
I think you're the one who's confused and unable to grasp the simple facts. All the topics on digispy have related to Dale farm and/or Irish travellers in general, yet you and the OP for some reason see fit to drag the persecution of the Jews into it. THERE ARE NO SIMILARITIES!
They(irish travellers) want to be outsiders, they don't want to marry mix or socialise outside of their own closed community.
Simple facts:
Original post was about travellers in general.
This point was made clear by the fact links were provided regarding travellers not only in the UK but across Europe as well.
Regardless of if other topics related to Dale Farm it was clear to me on first reading that this topic was about treatment of travellers in general. I struggle to understand what caused you to link France and Italy with Dale Farm.
Similarities in the treatment of Jews, Travellers and outsiders is a matter of fact. Thankfully it is now no longer acceptable to be anti-Semetic in this country as it was in the past.
You say the travellers don't want to marry outside their own people which again has a similarity to some Jewish denominations which marry within their own communities. Israel in it self was the creation of a Jewish state. Is it wrong for travellers who to wish to stay within their own groups? Are Jews wrong who also wish to do the same? Are immigrants who move to other countries wrong for living amongst their own people also? You say we've dragged Jews into this debate but it could be lots of minority's that we used as an example.
The Dale Farm residents (they don't travel!) are breaking the law, Jews running legitimate buinesses before Kristallnacht were not, to compare the DF residents situation to what happened to Jews in recent European history is an insult of the lowest order :mad:, and shows just how ignorant the OP is.
We're not comparing Dale Farm specifically. That would be just stupid. It's the anti Traveller sentiment that is still prevalent across Europe even after they were being exterminated during the Holocaust is what we are discussing.
This point was made clear by the fact links were provided regarding travellers not only in the UK but across Europe as well.
Regardless of if other topics related to Dale Farm it was clear to me on first reading that this topic was about treatment of travellers in general. I struggle to understand what caused you to link France and Italy with Dale Farm.
Similarities in the treatment of Jews, Travellers and outsiders is a matter of fact. Thankfully it is now no longer acceptable to be anti-Semetic in this country as it was in the past.
You say the travellers don't want to marry outside their own people which again has a similarity to some Jewish denominations which marry within their own communities. Israel in it self was the creation of a Jewish state. Is it wrong for travellers who to wish to stay within their own groups? Are Jews wrong who also wish to do the same? Are immigrants who move to other countries wrong for living amongst their own people also? You say we've dragged Jews into this debate but it could be lots of minority's that we used as an example.
There are NO similarities in the treatment of Jews with travellers in this country, this whole debate about travellers has come about because of Dale farm - Stop fudging the argument.
Is it wrong for travellers who to wish to stay within their own groups with their own set of laws? - Yes it is
Just as it was wrong for the whites of south Africa and the southern states of America to do likewise.
From experience and being close to travellers in the past, most of the sites i'd be on, the majority were in to crime, even if it was down to handling stolen goods every family was up to something.
Part of the problem is they're born in to it so it's a way of life, it's not helped either by the crap some get as school kids for those that do attend school. Their education suffers which has a knock on effect in later life. If those around you are in to crime, there's an increased chance you'll end up the same way and that's what happens.
Like many that get caught up in to crime, there's also the attitude of why do a 9-5 job when you can earn some easy money for a few hours work, and with crime once you get caught or known to be trouble, chances of finding employment and leading a straight life can be pretty rare especially in these times.
We're not comparing Dale Farm specifically. That would be just stupid. It's the anti Traveller sentiment that is still prevalent across Europe even after they were being exterminated during the Holocaust is what we are discussing.
I think this is part of the problem. Several groups being 'lumped' together and labelled as bad.
The residents from Dale Farm are Irish travellers, a very different group to the Roma that were victims of the Holocaust.
The situation at Dale Farm is an issue about the planning laws of England and any decision should be based wholly in law. The 'ethnicity' of either side should be irrelevant. Unfortunately there are some who are choosing to make it an issue.
There are NO similarities in the treatment of Jews with travellers in this country
The point being you wouldn't be able to treat a Jewish person in the press in the way you it seems acceptable to treat travellers in this country and across Europe.
,
this whole debate about travellers has come about because of Dale farm - Stop fudging the argument.
Wrong. You and I both know this topic was without doubt about the wider travelling community. The links provided make that obvious. There's been no fudging of the issue. You wish to focus on Dale Farm because no reasonable person can compare Dale Farm alone to pan European mistreatment of minorities. The issue is about demonisation of minorities, travellers specifically. Maybe you misunderstood this but you have been told many times that this was the case.
Is it wrong for travellers who to wish to stay within their own groups with their own set of laws? -
They should be forced into the settled community then? How will the settled community react to them being provided with houses? Would it not be better if we allowed them to travel as they once did? Then they have no justification for setting up separate, permanent encampments. As far as I'm concerned if they want to travel we should let them and help them but if they want to settle out of choice and not necessity then they are choosing to give up the traveller way of life an normal rules apply. That currently isn't the case because when they do try to travel they're often harassed and shifted on.
Yes it is
Just as it was wrong for the whites of south Africa and the southern states of America to do likewise.
That's a different situation. Travellers as minority living under laws designed to make living their way of life damn near impossible to point of being criminal can not be compared to a discriminatory ruling class oppressing those who they saw as beneath them.
I think this is part of the problem. Several groups being 'lumped' together and labelled as bad.
The residents from Dale Farm are Irish travellers, a very different group to the Roma that were victims of the Holocaust.
The situation at Dale Farm is an issue about the planning laws of England and any decision should be based wholly in law. The 'ethnicity' of either side should be irrelevant. Unfortunately there are some who are choosing to make it an issue.
However I think it is safe to say that as travellers they would have faced the same fate as the Roma. According to Nazi ideology the Roma were in fact Aryan (which didn't save them) and, proportionately, the only other group to face higher numbers of people exterminated was the Jews. There are many groups of travellers and gypsies admittedly but even Scottish Traveller Cant has Romany words in it. Irish and English gypsies I don't know so much about but I would imagine there will be similarities between them and the Roma too in their languages.
The point being you wouldn't be able to treat a Jewish person in the press in the way you it seems acceptable to treat travellers in this country and across Europe.
,
Wrong. You and I both know this topic was without doubt about the wider travelling community. The links provided make that obvious. There's been no fudging of the issue. You wish to focus on Dale Farm because no reasonable person can compare Dale Farm alone to pan European mistreatment of minorities. The issue is about demonisation of minorities, travellers specifically. Maybe you misunderstood this but you have been told many times that this was the case.
They should be forced into the settled community then? How will the settled community react to them being provided with houses? Would it not be better if we allowed them to travel as they once did? Then they have no justification for setting up separate, permanent encampments. As far as I'm concerned if they want to travel we should let them and help them but if they want to settle out of choice and not necessity then they are choosing to give up the traveller way of life an normal rules apply. That currently isn't the case because when they do try to travel they're often harassed and shifted on.
That's a different situation. Travellers as minority living under laws designed to make living their way of life damn near impossible to point of being criminal can not be compared to a discriminatory ruling class oppressing those who they saw as beneath them.
They can live in their own communities as far as I'm concerned, but the laws of the land(i.e planning permission) should apply to everyone. However If they choose to not mix or intergrate don't be surprised if the rest of us view them with a certain amount suspicion and resentment. And my comparison with the whites of South Africa and southern America is a damn sight more subjective than yours about the persecution of the jews.
From experience and being close to travellers in the past, most of the sites i'd be on, the majority were in to crime, even if it was down to handling stolen goods every family was up to something.
Part of the problem is they're born in to it so it's a way of life, it's not helped either by the crap some get as school kids for those that do attend school. Their education suffers which has a knock on effect in later life. If those around you are in to crime, there's an increased chance you'll end up the same way and that's what happens.
Like many that get caught up in to crime, there's also the attitude of why do a 9-5 job when you can earn some easy money for a few hours work, and with crime once you get caught or known to be trouble, chances of finding employment and leading a straight life can be pretty rare especially in these times.
You could claim pretty much exactly the same about any working-class/underclass community anywhere in the UK, white, black, traveller, immigrant etc.
I live within half a mile of a traveller site. I live within 3/4 of a mile of four of the most deprived and notorious housing estates in Scotland, indeed western Europe. I have never heard of or witnessed any trouble with the travellers. The same cant be said for some of the "settled" occupants of the housing estates, rife with poverty, unemployment and the associated malaise of drug abuse, anti-social crime and violence.
Of course, even there it is just a minority. One in a hundred adds up to a problem when it is from schemes of several thousand. One in a hundred aint too many on a traveller site of a few dozen families.
All find themselves scape-goated to one degree or another. But the residents of a travellers site or of a dumping ground housing estate aren't the reason the global economy is down the toilet. They aren't the reason food prices are rising, they arent the reason jobs are being lost and they arent the reason your electricty bill has jumped another 20%.
So why are the tabloids today full of the same type of horror stories about travellers, muslims, disabled "scroungers" and "greedy" immigrants that were common during the last global economic collapse in the 1930s? Why are governments across Europe using that media frenzy to push populist headline grabbing polices about clearing out travellers and banning veils, whilst our economies go down the toilet and those responsible make off with billions of our money?
And what is it about Europeans that makes us so happy to swallow it all again?
Incidentally, the cost of Cameron's ongoing vanity war in Libya, £1.75 Billion.
The cost to the UK taxpayer bail out the British banks that fraudulently gambled the western economy into collapse, £1.162 Trillion.
However I think it is safe to say that as travellers they would have faced the same fate as the Roma. According to Nazi ideology the Roma were in fact Aryan (which didn't save them) and, proportionately, the only other group to face higher numbers of people exterminated was the Jews. There are many groups of travellers and gypsies admittedly but even Scottish Traveller Cant has Romany words in it. Irish and English gypsies I don't know so much about but I would imagine there will be similarities between them and the Roma too in their languages.
The 'travelling' communities are extremely diverse. Apparently several other groups are distancing themselves from the Irish travelling community because they feel some of that community are causing problems for all.
There have been several media attempts to demonstrate the diverse cultures of what is often given the blanket term 'gypsy'. Apparently there was a very interesting documentary on the Community Channel made by the Roma about their culture. Unfortunately this did not receive the same attention as the sensationalist 'Big Fat Gypsy Wedding' on Ch4 featuring primarily Irish travellers. There were also some pieces by Scottish travellers in the Scottish press to stress the difference between them and the Irish travelling community.
I agree the negative media coverage is completely unacceptable of the travelling community. I find attacks on cultures and distinct groupings abhorrent as it can and too often does lead to attack and unfair treatment. The situation at Dale Farm has spiralled into a debate on culture and that is in no one's best interest. The legal argument should be fixed on the planning law.
Comments
That's true. And you could easily substitute 'Benefit claimer" in there too, and it would be an acceptable target again. Our press can be nasty and nasty sells.
But the OP and discussion is not about Dale Farm or just Irish Travellers and is about Travellers. The discussion is about treatment of travelling people.
You could replace the word with if any group you'd like and it would still work, because they would all be receiving the same treatment. If a camp of Jews did this, only the daft would be claiming it's anti-Semitic. If a camp of English people did it, you can bet the same action would take place there. The only reason their treatment looks different is they're the only group to believe they have the right to set up an illegal camp and avoid legal consequences.
Action is taken against illegal development all the time, it's just most of the law breakers aren't this brazen. It doesn't mean we're treating the travellers any differently to anybody else.
It's not just about illegal development but about wider anti traveller sentiment. On the issue of illegal development it's different from settled people to travellers. Settled people are settled normally and live in houses. Travellers used to travel the roads but as the authorities have made it more and more difficult for travellers to travel they have tried to find ways to at least remain in traveller communities. The authorities need to take some responsibility for these problems arising. We need to take into consideration ways to enable the traveller lifestyle to continue within the law. The law is designed to make it very difficult to live on the road. Travellers have found ways to keep their communities alive in some from because the law has been trying to get travellers off the road into council houses for years and they obviously don't want to live like that.
Then I suggest the OP and you stop fudging and blurring the issue by posting OTT threads like this. The main topic on this board over the last few months has been the breaking of the law by those at Dale farm, and in some aspects the other illegal activities by a very large minority of the same 'Irish traveller' community
If the OP has issues with the way other countries handle their 'traveller' problems then I suggest he posts on Digispy Italia or Digispy France.
To infer that the treatment of those at Dale farm draws similarities to the treatment of the Jews in 30's is both obscene and offensive.
It's you who are confused and unable to discuss the issue in a wider context without going OTT. You may have made a decision to find the post obscene and offensive but it's not actually so I suggest we keep on discussing the topic and if you find it offensive then don't get involved. It's no use when your incapable of taking onboard the fact that it's not about Dale Farm specifically but the victimisation in the press of groups viewed by wider society as outsiders.
Well (off the top of me head) I'd reckon they broke the Planning Laws and Environmental Health Laws GM.
I think you're the one who's confused and unable to grasp the simple facts. All the topics on digispy have related to Dale farm and/or Irish travellers in general, yet you and the OP for some reason see fit to drag the persecution of the Jews into it. THERE ARE NO SIMILARITIES!
They(irish travellers) want to be outsiders, they don't want to marry mix or socialise outside of their own closed community.
So do plenty Gypsies.
Well then you would believe wrongly. Some of the stories referred specifically to Roma in France and Italy, ie Sarkozy to expel Roma, Italy to fingerprint Roma etc.
And Anndra_w is correct, I am demostrating how the media demonises/scapegoats groups according to what is socially acceptable. In the early part of the 20th Century, in England as well as Germany, jewish "aliens" were the focus for the media's opprobrium. Today it is Muslims, travellers, and immigrants. (And indeed, Roma/Travelling communities have been subject to often genocidal discrimination and prejudice for at least as long as the Jewish community were - and for many of the same "reasons".)
Incidentally, I thought this snippet from the Holocaust eduction sites section on Der Sturmer, that I quoted from previously, was also quite interesting considering that a remarkably similiar subject is also raised ad nauseum by the "not at all racist" Islamophobes... (who often seem to be the same people who are posting here about travellers being worthless criminals)
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/holoprelude/dersturmer.html
The populist tabloid, Der Sturmer was subtitled "Die Juden sind unser Unglück!" ("The Jews are our misfortune").
Again it would be so easy to replace "Juden" with "Muslim" or "asylum seeker", "benefit scrounger" or whatever, and you have the Sun and the Daily Mail editorial line in a nutshell.
To quote the great English philosopher, Thomas "Mensi" Mensforth, "Fascism doesnt begin with concentration camps, that is where it ends".
Ah I see.
I wasn't sure whether it was the caravans they didn't have planning permission for or whether it might just be toilets ,shower blocks, and communal utility/laundry buildings.
You're wasting your time, It's the usual far left/uber liberal tactic of scare mongering. Any chance they get they'll try and draw comparisons with the Nazis/Jews etc. It's very disturbing.
There's no need for newspapers and some people here to revel in it. Some of the comments are disgraceful. But the flip side is that Travellers are also guilty of making it a racial issue by saying they should be exempt from the law and that they can only live with their own kind. It's horribly ironic that they are complaining that they can't form ethnic 'ghettos'. Look at what happened to Jewish and Gypsy people in Warsaw.
Simple facts:
Original post was about travellers in general.
This point was made clear by the fact links were provided regarding travellers not only in the UK but across Europe as well.
Regardless of if other topics related to Dale Farm it was clear to me on first reading that this topic was about treatment of travellers in general. I struggle to understand what caused you to link France and Italy with Dale Farm.
Similarities in the treatment of Jews, Travellers and outsiders is a matter of fact. Thankfully it is now no longer acceptable to be anti-Semetic in this country as it was in the past.
You say the travellers don't want to marry outside their own people which again has a similarity to some Jewish denominations which marry within their own communities. Israel in it self was the creation of a Jewish state. Is it wrong for travellers who to wish to stay within their own groups? Are Jews wrong who also wish to do the same? Are immigrants who move to other countries wrong for living amongst their own people also? You say we've dragged Jews into this debate but it could be lots of minority's that we used as an example.
We're not comparing Dale Farm specifically. That would be just stupid. It's the anti Traveller sentiment that is still prevalent across Europe even after they were being exterminated during the Holocaust is what we are discussing.
There are NO similarities in the treatment of Jews with travellers in this country, this whole debate about travellers has come about because of Dale farm - Stop fudging the argument.
Is it wrong for travellers who to wish to stay within their own groups with their own set of laws? - Yes it is
Just as it was wrong for the whites of south Africa and the southern states of America to do likewise.
Part of the problem is they're born in to it so it's a way of life, it's not helped either by the crap some get as school kids for those that do attend school. Their education suffers which has a knock on effect in later life. If those around you are in to crime, there's an increased chance you'll end up the same way and that's what happens.
Like many that get caught up in to crime, there's also the attitude of why do a 9-5 job when you can earn some easy money for a few hours work, and with crime once you get caught or known to be trouble, chances of finding employment and leading a straight life can be pretty rare especially in these times.
I think this is part of the problem. Several groups being 'lumped' together and labelled as bad.
The residents from Dale Farm are Irish travellers, a very different group to the Roma that were victims of the Holocaust.
The situation at Dale Farm is an issue about the planning laws of England and any decision should be based wholly in law. The 'ethnicity' of either side should be irrelevant. Unfortunately there are some who are choosing to make it an issue.
The point being you wouldn't be able to treat a Jewish person in the press in the way you it seems acceptable to treat travellers in this country and across Europe.
,
Wrong. You and I both know this topic was without doubt about the wider travelling community. The links provided make that obvious. There's been no fudging of the issue. You wish to focus on Dale Farm because no reasonable person can compare Dale Farm alone to pan European mistreatment of minorities. The issue is about demonisation of minorities, travellers specifically. Maybe you misunderstood this but you have been told many times that this was the case.
They should be forced into the settled community then? How will the settled community react to them being provided with houses? Would it not be better if we allowed them to travel as they once did? Then they have no justification for setting up separate, permanent encampments. As far as I'm concerned if they want to travel we should let them and help them but if they want to settle out of choice and not necessity then they are choosing to give up the traveller way of life an normal rules apply. That currently isn't the case because when they do try to travel they're often harassed and shifted on.
That's a different situation. Travellers as minority living under laws designed to make living their way of life damn near impossible to point of being criminal can not be compared to a discriminatory ruling class oppressing those who they saw as beneath them.
However I think it is safe to say that as travellers they would have faced the same fate as the Roma. According to Nazi ideology the Roma were in fact Aryan (which didn't save them) and, proportionately, the only other group to face higher numbers of people exterminated was the Jews. There are many groups of travellers and gypsies admittedly but even Scottish Traveller Cant has Romany words in it. Irish and English gypsies I don't know so much about but I would imagine there will be similarities between them and the Roma too in their languages.
They can live in their own communities as far as I'm concerned, but the laws of the land(i.e planning permission) should apply to everyone. However If they choose to not mix or intergrate don't be surprised if the rest of us view them with a certain amount suspicion and resentment. And my comparison with the whites of South Africa and southern America is a damn sight more subjective than yours about the persecution of the jews.
You could claim pretty much exactly the same about any working-class/underclass community anywhere in the UK, white, black, traveller, immigrant etc.
I live within half a mile of a traveller site. I live within 3/4 of a mile of four of the most deprived and notorious housing estates in Scotland, indeed western Europe. I have never heard of or witnessed any trouble with the travellers. The same cant be said for some of the "settled" occupants of the housing estates, rife with poverty, unemployment and the associated malaise of drug abuse, anti-social crime and violence.
Of course, even there it is just a minority. One in a hundred adds up to a problem when it is from schemes of several thousand. One in a hundred aint too many on a traveller site of a few dozen families.
All find themselves scape-goated to one degree or another. But the residents of a travellers site or of a dumping ground housing estate aren't the reason the global economy is down the toilet. They aren't the reason food prices are rising, they arent the reason jobs are being lost and they arent the reason your electricty bill has jumped another 20%.
So why are the tabloids today full of the same type of horror stories about travellers, muslims, disabled "scroungers" and "greedy" immigrants that were common during the last global economic collapse in the 1930s? Why are governments across Europe using that media frenzy to push populist headline grabbing polices about clearing out travellers and banning veils, whilst our economies go down the toilet and those responsible make off with billions of our money?
And what is it about Europeans that makes us so happy to swallow it all again?
Incidentally, the cost of Cameron's ongoing vanity war in Libya, £1.75 Billion.
The cost to the UK taxpayer bail out the British banks that fraudulently gambled the western economy into collapse, £1.162 Trillion.
The cost to bail out the flailing Euro, £1.75 Trillion
But never mind that, look, there's some dirty, thieving gypos over there...
The 'travelling' communities are extremely diverse. Apparently several other groups are distancing themselves from the Irish travelling community because they feel some of that community are causing problems for all.
There have been several media attempts to demonstrate the diverse cultures of what is often given the blanket term 'gypsy'. Apparently there was a very interesting documentary on the Community Channel made by the Roma about their culture. Unfortunately this did not receive the same attention as the sensationalist 'Big Fat Gypsy Wedding' on Ch4 featuring primarily Irish travellers. There were also some pieces by Scottish travellers in the Scottish press to stress the difference between them and the Irish travelling community.
I agree the negative media coverage is completely unacceptable of the travelling community. I find attacks on cultures and distinct groupings abhorrent as it can and too often does lead to attack and unfair treatment. The situation at Dale Farm has spiralled into a debate on culture and that is in no one's best interest. The legal argument should be fixed on the planning law.